Looking at ARs for hunting. What to know?

[Sanderguy777]

Yes it would be a good idea to spend money on a decent scope and ammo than a super expensive barrel and trigger and such.

For an ar10, what scope would you get? Would Swamp Fox or Athlon be any good, or should I step up to a Vortex?
Would a scope even make sense under 200 yards? Would a red dot be ok? Would a scope help me place the shot better through brush?

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

For an ar10, what scope would you get? Would Swamp Fox or Athlon be any good, or should I step up to a Vortex?
Would a scope even make sense under 200 yards? Would a red dot be ok? Would a scope help me place the shot better through brush?

Well again, it depends on personal preference... So I'm a big fan of Vortex Viper HS scopes as I've got three of them. Id look for one of those on sale like from Euro Optic, they let you use PayPal so you can spread the payments over time.
However I also have two Leopold RDS 1moa red dots, one on my Rem 870 fully rifled slug barrel and one on my 5.55 SBR. They are pretty good red dots especially considering their sub 300 cost.
I had one on my 308 before taking it off and putting it on my 5.56. I'm still debating what optic to put on it for the new 6.5 creedmoor barrel myself as well. I'd like to get some magnification but I don't want a massive scope on it either lol.

 

[Mstafford88]

keep in mind ARs can be a money pit and a way some people can “flex” by saying you MUST spend a ton of money to get quality. Not always the case. Most of my AR stuff and my new favorite pistol came from palmetto state armory. Lower cost but definitely not cheap quality. 10.5” 5.56 shooting golf balls open sights and the upper cost less than $400

I am by no means saying to cheap out, just do your research. PSA has great products and there are great reviews and you don’t have to drain the bank account. Oh and my upper for 300blk is from radical firearms. Dime size groups at 100 with my 150gr Nosler BT hand loads

 

[Mstafford88]

For an ar10, what scope would you get? Would Swamp Fox or Athlon be any good, or should I step up to a Vortex?
Would a scope even make sense under 200 yards? Would a red dot be ok? Would a scope help me place the shot better through brush?

Since Nikon doesn’t make scopes anymore, the same cost/ probably better quality is the Vortex crossfire line. That’s what I have my eye on for my planned 308 build. But I’m only looking for max 12x zoom. I believe you mentioned something like a “brush gun”? If that’s the case, 300blk and that scope you can pick out a deer’s hair to shoot lol. Aim small miss small right?

 

[mavracer]

For an ar10, what scope would you get? Would Swamp Fox or Athlon be any good, or should I step up to a Vortex?
Would a scope even make sense under 200 yards? Would a red dot be ok? Would a scope help me place the shot better through brush?

A 1-6X or 1-8X are the easy button for me. Swampfox makes good stuff value is on you though. I have a 1-4X Leupold on my Legend as I wanted to keep it as light as possible. I've also recently purchased a Vortex Ranger 1-4X for a service rifle optic and am really impressed.
All my other LPVOs are first focal I have 3 Crimson Trace that are discontinued and a US Optic ts8 that's an excellent optic.
I've had a SFP 1-8X Strike Eagle it's OK but I got spoiled by better glass and FFP reticles.

 

[zdc1775]

Why? Is it just that good that it doesn't make sense to get a better brand?

Or are you saying that it's good enough, and I should only upgrade things that I feel could be better? Like if I decide I want a better trigger or something.

For AR's, specifically the AR-15's, you really only have four parts that are truly worth spending more money on in my experience and those are the bolt carrier group, the barrel, the gas block, and the trigger. And all of those have points of diminishing returns. Everything else basically comes down to user preference and will gain you little to nothing when it comes to accuracy and reliability.

For an ar10, what scope would you get? Would Swamp Fox or Athlon be any good, or should I step up to a Vortex?
Would a scope even make sense under 200 yards? Would a red dot be ok? Would a scope help me place the shot better through brush?

I will always advocate for a person to buy as high a quality scope as their budget allows, but I will say that I have been extremely impressed with the Swampfox optics I have. I would put them on par with Vortex's lower-mid tier optics with a few more features for a bit less money.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Well again, it depends on personal preference... So I'm a big fan of Vortex Viper HS scopes as I've got three of them. Id look for one of those on sale like from Euro Optic, they let you use PayPal so you can spread the payments over time.
However I also have two Leopold RDS 1moa red dots, one on my Rem 870 fully rifled slug barrel and one on my 5.55 SBR. They are pretty good red dots especially considering their sub 300 cost.
I had one on my 308 before taking it off and putting it on my 5.56. I'm still debating what optic to put on it for the new 6.5 creedmoor barrel myself as well. I'd like to get some magnification but I don't want a massive scope on it either lol.

I didn't know they made 1moa red dots. I thought all were 2moa. I'll definitely take a look.

keep in mind ARs can be a money pit and a way some people can “flex” by saying you MUST spend a ton of money to get quality. Not always the case. Most of my AR stuff and my new favorite pistol came from palmetto state armory. Lower cost but definitely not cheap quality. 10.5” 5.56 shooting golf balls open sights and the upper cost less than $400

I am by no means saying to cheap out, just do your research. PSA has great products and there are great reviews and you don’t have to drain the bank account. Oh and my upper for 300blk is from radical firearms. Dime size groups at 100 with my 150gr Nosler BT hand loads

Wow! Yeah, I'm not saying I NEED the Geissele stuff. And I know PSA is well respected for the quality they out out for the cost. But based on their customer service (which is a robot that tells you their staff don't answer state law questions, and don't know anything technical about their products), I'm kinda over them. It seemed like a good idea, but if they can't even get that right, then I'm not really interested in spending money there. Especially when I can go to Aero Precision and get better quality for maybe a $100 or 200 per rifle. And they have customer service with real people

Since Nikon doesn’t make scopes anymore, the same cost/ probably better quality is the Vortex crossfire line. That’s what I have my eye on for my planned 308 build. But I’m only looking for max 12x zoom. I believe you mentioned something like a “brush gun”? If that’s the case, 300blk and that scope you can pick out a deer’s hair to shoot lol. Aim small miss small right?

Do you know what lines of Vortex are USA made? I'd prefer to get one of those, but that really depends on the cost at this point.
I agree about zoom. 10x is probably the most I'll need.

A 1-6X or 1-8X are the easy button for me. Swampfox makes good stuff value is on you though. I have a 1-4X Leupold on my Legend as I wanted to keep it as light as possible. I've also recently purchased a Vortex Ranger 1-4X for a service rifle optic and am really impressed.
All my other LPVOs are first focal I have 3 Crimson Trace that are discontinued and a US Optic ts8 that's an excellent optic.
I've had a SFP 1-8X Strike Eagle it's OK but I got spoiled by better glass and FFP reticles.

I like that. 1-4x is probably plenty for my needs, and it would be much cheaper.

For AR's, specifically the AR-15's, you really only have four parts that are truly worth spending more money on in my experience and those are the bolt carrier group, the barrel, the gas block, and the trigger. And all of those have points of diminishing returns. Everything else basically comes down to user preference and will gain you little to nothing when it comes to accuracy and reliability.



I will always advocate for a person to buy as high a quality scope as their budget allows, but I will say that I have been extremely impressed with the Swampfox optics I have. I would put them on par with Vortex's lower-mid tier optics with a few more features for a bit less money.

Good info! I've seen a lot of Swamp Fox optics on reviews, so I thought they might be good. Sounds like they're decent. I like EOTech, but I can't justify paying as much for the optic as I did for the upper LOL and that's just a red dot!

 

[12Bravo20]

I will always advocate for a person to buy as high a quality scope as their budget allows, but I will say that I have been extremely impressed with the Swampfox optics I have. I would put them on par with Vortex's lower-mid tier optics with a few more features for a bit less money.

I couldn't agree more with this.

I sometimes like to try the different budget friendly scopes and won't hesitate to recommend Swampfox Optics. Swampfox optics are on par with the lower end Vortex optics (as zdc1775 mentioned) and are on par with comparably priced scopes from Primary Arms and as good as the now discontinued Nikon ProStaff line.

But to be honest any good 3-9 or 4-12/16 scope with a simple reticle will be just fine for hunting use. Now if you plan on doing any shooting at long distances and/or for tiny groups then look at scope with Christmas tree type reticles.

Decide what your main use is going to be for the scope and go from there.

 

[Sanderguy777]

I couldn't agree more with this.

I sometimes like to try the different budget friendly scopes and won't hesitate to recommend Swampfox Optics. Swampfox optics are on par with the lower end Vortex optics (as zdc1775 mentioned) and are on par with comparably priced scopes from Primary Arms and as good as the now discontinued Nikon ProStaff line.

But to be honest any good 3-9 or 4-12/16 scope with a simple reticle will be just fine for hunting use. Now if you plan on doing any shooting at long distances and/or for tiny groups then look at scope with Christmas tree type reticles.

Decide what your main use is going to be for the scope and go from there.

Thanks! I probably don't need anything complicated, for sure. Mainly just hunting use. But I might consider a range finding scope.

What about first focal plane? Would it get too small at 1x on a 1-4x LPVO?

 

[12Bravo20]

I forgot to add that I won several Swampfox Optics scopes. I definitely prefer the Swampfox LPVO scopes over any of the Primary Arms LPVO scopes. I have the Swampfox Tomahawk 1-4 LPVO and Arrowhead 1-8 LPVO and both are good scopes for the money. I also have a Swampfox Patriot 6-24 that I use on my Savage MkII that is setup for long distance 22lr shooting. The Patriot is as good or slightly better than comparable scopes from Primary Arms and lower tier Vortex scopes I have used.

What about first focal plane? Would it get too small at 1x on a 1-4x LPVO?

Yes the reticle will get pretty small on a FFP scope at the lowest magnification level. This is not an issue with most LPVO scopes since they generally have some type of ring around the crosshair or center dot. At 1X they are quite usable and are the same as using a red dot. With a LPVO, they are good for quick shots at 1X and also allow you to turn up magnification when you want or need to.

The main downside to all LPVO scopes is that they generally will generally have a tighter eye box and not as much leeway with eye relief.

 

[mavracer]

What about first focal plane? Would it get too small at 1x on a 1-4x LPVO?

Without looking I don't know of any 1-4x FFP scopes, but generally now days the manufacturers have a pretty good handle on making a proper size reticle so that at 1X you have a red dot like aiming point and a usable ranging reticle at higher magnification. This is what my Crimson Trace does which won me over. Although the manufacturers also have SFP reticles down too and most have some type of aid for low magnification close target aiming

 

[mavracer]

I'd also add that the big advantage of FFP scopes is the ranging reticle is correct at any power setting whereas the SFP is only correct at one setting usually the highest magnification.
With a 1-4x this isn't as big of deal because you'll pretty much be cranked to 4X for anything you might need ranging and 4X will still have enough field of view to make most close shots. I still have a couple old guns with fixed 4X that I'd hunt with on a whim.
The advantage of FFP at least to me is when you get 1-6X or more in a LPVO once you get above 4X that field of view and eye box start shrinking, but now you can still range at 4X or zoom in a bit without necessarily going all the way to 8X as one would with a SFP 1-8X.

 

[12Bravo20]

Here is what the Swampfox Arrowhead Gorilla Dot MIL reticle and Tomahawk Gorilla Cross MOA reticles look like.

Gorilla Dot MIL



Gorilla Cross MOA

 

[Sanderguy777]

I forgot to add that I won several Swampfox Optics scopes. I definitely prefer the Swampfox LPVO scopes over any of the Primary Arms LPVO scopes. I have the Swampfox Tomahawk 1-4 LPVO and Arrowhead 1-8 LPVO and both are good scopes for the money. I also have a Swampfox Patriot 6-24 that I use on my Savage MkII that is setup for long distance 22lr shooting. The Patriot is as good or slightly better than comparable scopes from Primary Arms and lower tier Vortex scopes I have used.



Yes the reticle will get pretty small on a FFP scope at the lowest magnification level. This is not an issue with most LPVO scopes since they generally have some type of ring around the crosshair or center dot. At 1X they are quite usable and are the same as using a red dot. With a LPVO, they are good for quick shots at 1X and also allow you to turn up magnification when you want or need to.

The main downside to all LPVO scopes is that they generally will generally have a tighter eye box and not as much leeway with eye relief.

Aren't there scout style LPVOs with longer eye relief?

Also, in woods hunting, is illumination essential in any optic? I've heard that it helps with FFP but I don't know if it's normal on FFP (or if it comes on any LPVOs)

Without looking I don't know of any 1-4x FFP scopes, but generally now days the manufacturers have a pretty good handle on making a proper size reticle so that at 1X you have a red dot like aiming point and a usable ranging reticle at higher magnification. This is what my Crimson Trace does which won me over. Although the manufacturers also have SFP reticles down too and most have some type of aid for low magnification close target aimingView attachment 1167161

Oh, cool. I didn't know about the SFP low power stuff.

I'd also add that the big advantage of FFP scopes is the ranging reticle is correct at any power setting whereas the SFP is only correct at one setting usually the highest magnification.
With a 1-4x this isn't as big of deal because you'll pretty much be cranked to 4X for anything you might need ranging and 4X will still have enough field of view to make most close shots. I still have a couple old guns with fixed 4X that I'd hunt with on a whim.
The advantage of FFP at least to me is when you get 1-6X or more in a LPVO once you get above 4X that field of view and eye box start shrinking, but now you can still range at 4X or zoom in a bit without necessarily going all the way to 8X as one would with a SFP 1-8X.

That makes sense about only using ranging for 4x.

The other thought I had was to get iron sights on a 45⁰ mount, then have a scope like a 2-7x or even just a fixed 4x of something on the pic rail.

Here is what the Swampfox Arrowhead Gorilla Dot MIL reticle and Tomahawk Gorilla Cross MOA reticles look like.

Gorilla Dot MIL

View attachment 1167162

Gorilla Cross MOA

View attachment 1167163

Cool!

 

[12Bravo20]

Most LPVO scopes have some type of illuminated reticle now days. An illuminated reticle is not needed except maybe at dusk or dawn.

As far as scout scopes go, I don't know of any that are a true 1X at the lowest magnification. Leupold does make a 1.5-4 scout scope. Most scout scopes are going to be 2-7 power.

When it comes to scopes on AR rifles, you are better off keeping the scope mounted directly on the upper receiver. The upper receiver will be more stable than a free float or dropping handguard.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Most LPVO scopes have some type of illuminated reticle now days. An illuminated reticle is not needed except maybe at dusk or dawn.

As far as scout scopes go, I don't know of any that are a true 1X at the lowest magnification. Leupold does make a 1.5-4 scout scope. Most scout scopes are going to be 2-7 power.

When it comes to scopes on AR rifles, you are better off keeping the scope mounted directly on the upper receiver. The upper receiver will be more stable than a free float or dropping handguard.

Oh, mounting the scope one the receiver makes a lot of sense. I thought the hand guard was rigid, just like a normal gun. But your point makes sense. The barrel is free floated and the hand guard isn't as rigid as a barrel.

Ok, I thought LPVOs were basically scout scopes, but I guess they were a relatively new invention. Probably a better option than a scout scope, right?

 

[mavracer]

The other thought I had was to get iron sights on a 45⁰ mount, then have a scope like a 2-7x or even just a fixed 4x of something on the pic rail.

Feel free to get as deep into Black Rifle Disease as you please lol.
This is my dedicated 22lr has a US Optic TS-12 with a Bushnell micro reflex on a 45°.
I have 45° irons on a couple guns, the cheap chinesium ones work OK, the Magpul Pro offsets are excellent and tuck better when stowed.

 

[Hunter 08]

PSA will have the 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle with cantilever mount on sale for about $300 every once in a while. Has a BDC reticle. Not on sale right now, but sales happen every week or so. Next big sale should be Labor Day. https://palmettostatearmory.com/vor...2-riflescope-w-ar-bdc3-reticle-se-1824-2.html

 

[Sanderguy777]

PSA will have the 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle with cantilever mount on sale for about $300 every once in a while. Has a BDC reticle. Not on sale right now, but sales happen every week or so. Next big sale should be Labor Day. https://palmettostatearmory.com/vor...2-riflescope-w-ar-bdc3-reticle-se-1824-2.html

Oh, good to know. I'll take a look.

 

[mavracer]

PSA will have the 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle with cantilever mount on sale for about $300 every once in a while. Has a BDC reticle. Not on sale right now, but sales happen every week or so. Next big sale should be Labor Day. https://palmettostatearmory.com/vor...2-riflescope-w-ar-bdc3-reticle-se-1824-2.html

Just got email this AM coupon code is STRIKE

 

[Hunter 08]

Just got email this AM coupon code is STRIKE

Like I said, goes on sale every so often. Hop on that if you want!

 

[CraigC]

Anyone have experience with Aero Precision or PSA (or PWS for that matter) as far as customer service goes?

PSA just puts me in an endless loop ok the phone and chat with their "liberty" bot. Only liberating thing about it is how it's liberating their pocket book from hiring staff to answer phones LOL

AP just have a chat feature, qhich I've had no luck woth either.

Not Aero but last week PSA was easy enough to return a Trijicon ACOG scope that was damaged before shipment.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Ok, so they do have some CS LOL. I'm honestly probably going with one of their lowers, and then a cheap-ish 7.62 upper. (I like the mk47, but it only uses AK mags so I'd rather just take my chances woth AKing an AR and using AR style mag for it.

 

[Sanderguy777]

And you heard correct about BCA's quality. You have have about a 70-75 percent chance of getting a good centerfire upper and a 50/50 change on their rimfire uppers.

I am going to make a suggestion that you either wait for better complete uppers or better parts are on sale. This is especially true when it comes to an upper that will be capable of shooting very small groups. I would not want to hamper the accuracy of 6 ARC or even 6.5 Grendel by going too cheap on the barrel. You don't have to buy top tier stuff but you also don't want the bottom of the barrel stuff either. I would suggest looking at Faxon or Odin Works barrels if you are wanting to build your own upper and are on a tighter budget. Since the 6 ARC is a very accurate caliber, it begs to have a better trigger than a GI trigger. The Larue MBT-2S is hard to beat for the money.

The 6 ARC uses the same bolt as the 6.5 Grendel. And some people get away with using 6.5 Grendel mags with 6 ARC while others do not. I have found that the ASC brand of magazines work well and are available with the correct 6 ARC followers. I know that ASC doesn't have the best reputation when it comes to 5.56 magazines but all of their 6.8 PSC and 6 ARC magazines I have work very well.

For your needs a 16" barrel will suit your needs. Now if you later decide to start shooting the 6 ARC at long distances then an 18" or longer barrel is better. The 6 ARC is very capable of shooting small groups.

I am running an Odin Works 18" barrel with +2 rifle length gas. The Odin Works barrels comes with an adjustable gas block, though I haven't had to adjust mine.

Here is my 6 ARC build

View attachment 1165071

And here is how the rifle shot with both 105 and 108 grain ammo

108Gr - Green and blue was getting it sighted in and yellow circle is a 5 shot group at 100 yards.

View attachment 1165072

105Gr - Yellow circle was a 5 shot group at 100 yards

View attachment 1165073

I'm really leaning towards this build you have. What lower are you running? And do you think Odin or CMMG is better? CMMG is about $150 more, and the only thing I see different is the color options from CMMG.

Looked again. Same cost, apparently. Any recommendations on which is better?

 

[12Bravo20]

@Sanderguy777 I used a PSA lower that previously had a PSA A4 6.8 SPC upper on it. I did change out the rifle buffer system for a carbine buffer system so that I could install a MagPul PRS Lite stock. I also swapped out the GI trigger for a Larue MBT-2S trigger. For the upper, I am using an Anderson receiver I had siting in the safe along with a spare bolt carrier.

I can't answer your question on which is better between CMMG and Odin Works. The only CMMG products I own are dedicated 22LR stuff (which is good to go). My 6 ARC setup is the first time using anything from Odin Works. The barrel, gas tube, adjustable gas block and bolt are from Odin Works. I have been very pleased with everything and accuracy is good at the distances I have shot the rifle at. I haven't pushed the rifle past 300 yards yet. When I bought the barrel, Odin Works was cheaper and in stock.