Mashed sear

[whbjr24]

I started Cowboy Fast Draw and single actions last year. I purchased a uberti cattleman. After 4 months of practice, the gun would suddenly not stay in full cock. It would drop back to half cock. I did have to move the hammer a bit to get the cylinder to rotate to remove the laser cartridge. So maybe not exactly half cock? I had the gun repaired - problem: mashed sear. I also recently purchased a Taylor’s uberti Smoke Wagon. Shortly after, same failure. Again repaired - problem: mashed sear. I’m sensing a pattern. Then the cattleman failed again. The guns have been well cared for, NEVER dropped, and not so much as a scratch. So, I began to think my draw was source of the problem. Actually, truth be told, I thought that all along but couldn’t understand why. Taylor’s has the theory I’m slip cocking causing the sear to get mashed. It’s happened 3 times, over 2 different models, in just over 1 year. So, old timers with the experience, is there a method/technique I can concentrate on to prevent “slip cocking” when drawing for speed? What do you suggest? I’m open to all theories and suggestions. I love the sport and all the folks I’ve met, breaking my guns not so much. I’d like to say the problem is I’m too fast but trust me, that ain’t the problem. BTW, Many thanks to Taylor’s for their help even though I didn’t have photos. Regards,

 

[edwardware]

I'm not familiar with "slip cocking", but in the broader world of competition you might see folks preemptively replacing sears every 50-100k (from memory, regarding AMU 1911s).

If your sears are wearing in thousands. . . I suspect a quality problem in specifying or achieving tempering.

 

[Jim Watson]

I can't search out a definition of "slip cocking" but it seems to be considered bad practice and specifically setting up the gun for it is not allowed.
A "mashed sear" implies damage to the trigger.
I would talk to somebody experienced at CFD and see what I should be doing differently.

As for general durability, I recall the old time fast draw and quick draw competitors would have "a pair and a spare" with a gun to shoot, a replacement on hand, and one in the shop being repaired or upgraded.

 

[whbjr24]

Yes, now I do have a pair and a spare!

 

[whbjr24]

I'm not familiar with "slip cocking", but in the broader world of competition you might see folks preemptively replacing sears every 50-100k (from memory, regarding AMU 1911s).

If your sears are wearing in thousands. . . I suspect a quality problem in specifying or achieving tempering.

I'm not familiar with "slip cocking", but in the broader world of competition you might see folks preemptively replacing sears every 50-100k (from memory, regarding AMU 1911s).

If your sears are wearing in thousands. . . I suspect a quality problem in specifying or achieving tempering.

So here’s a question; when an action job is done and the trigger pull is lightened is the sear polished? And if so, does the sear need to be re-hardened OR does the action job NOT go below the hardened layer? And yea, I’m not sure I know what I’m talking about …… yet.

 

[edwardware]

So here’s a question; when an action job is done and the trigger pull is lightened is the sear polished? And if so, does the sear need to be re-hardened OR does the action job NOT go below the hardened layer?

Good questions.
- frequently, but not always
- it depends
A sear meant for Smithing on will be tool steel, hard through, so there's no soft nougat filling to trouble you. Cheap surface hardened parts aren't, and MIM/sintered are even worse.

This might be your problem, but I'm not familiar enough with the internals to tell you.

 

[Jim Watson]

Assumes the trigger on a light duty imported reproduction is surface hardened in the first place. I don't know, CAS doesn't pound them so much.

 

[1KPerDay]

Know you know why Bob Munden learned how to fix his own SAAs. The design is not particularly robust, particularly if you’re fanning the gun or cocking the hammer super fast.

 

[whbjr24]

Know you know why Bob Munden learned how to fix his own SAAs. The design is not particularly robust, particularly if you’re fanning the gun or cocking the hammer super fast.

Yup, I’m going down that road as well. CFD doesn’t fan, but the hammer is slammed back. Taking a class from American Gunsmithing Institute on the colt ssa and clones to learn details of the machine. It’s actually fascinating how it all works. Once I learn how to deal with the sear, I want to learn how to time the bolt. It appears one of my pistols is a hair off. At least I think so.

 

[1KPerDay]

You might want to ask the blackpowder smiths here about an action stop and bolt stop. @Jackrabbit1957 @TheOutlawKid @45 Dragoon

 

[Jim Watson]

Yup. 45 Dragoon even brags about fanning his Walker.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks guys !!

Whb, you need an action stop that will stop hammer travel when you reach full cock. This will keep the hammer from slamming into the sear from an over drawn position. You also need a bolt block and the timing advanced some. The hand should be shortened , "Sculpting" of the bolt head so that it won't eat up the notches. If they allow it, converting to a coil action (with a flat main spring) will be a setup that you won't need any back ups for.

Mike

 

[jmorris]

So here’s a question; when an action job is done and the trigger pull is lightened is the sear polished? And if so, does the sear need to be re-hardened OR does the action job NOT go below the hardened layer? And yea, I’m not sure I know what I’m talking about …… yet.

If the trigger pull is lightened by spring replacement, it could be done without alteration to the sear.

Most “gunsmiths” I know don’t own the equipment it takes to do proper heat treatment and if you have a part that is made from an unknown alloy, that doesn’t help either. To answer your question, sometimes the process of “heat treating” can leave a scale on he surface of the part that needs to be polished off and doesn’t remove the hardness of the surface. Of course this would depend upon how much of the surface is removed during the process as well as the depth of the surface hardening.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Not really sure you can just "surface harden" a sear . . . or even a trigger. It's a small part. Any hardening will be "through hardening " . . . not just surface. Case hardening allows faster cooling of the outside and leaving the inner most material softer (for durability). Triggers . . . surface hardening . . . why?

Mike

 

[mjsdwash]

SAA's are mechanically very simple. Buy extra parts, replace as needed. this is something these have been known for since new, and not an Italian quality problem, just a matter of trading off. A sear made of hardened steel breaks the hammer. A sear and hammer of hardened steel peens the stop notches. All three hardened equals a %100 increase in price.... which brings us to the easy answer. Get a Ruger if fixing parts isn't your thing, and you still want to run them hard. The NM Vaq was made more or less for that.

 

[45 Dragoon]

After re-reading my post above, I don't mean it to sound crass. I still think the problem is too much hammer over travel.

Mike

 

[45 Dragoon]

SAA's are mechanically very simple. Buy extra parts, replace as needed. this is something these have been known for since new, and not an Italian quality problem, just a matter of trading off. A sear made of hardened steel breaks the hammer. A sear and hammer of hardened steel peens the stop notches. All three hardened equals a %100 increase in price.... which brings us to the easy answer. Get a Ruger if fixing parts isn't your thing, and you still want to run them hard. The NM Vaq was made more or less for that.

Wow!!!! They're so simple, new parts just drop in. There's no setup for a particular purpose. Hmmmm . . . something known for since new . . . first I've heard of it. Hardened sear breaks a hammer . . . how's that work? Hardened hammer and sear peens the notches? Do tell!!! I love learning about this stuff!!! An Uberti Cattleman (plain Jane ( sorry Jane!)) can be made to perform better than a NM Ruger!! . . . with no transfer bar to break (fairly common problem for the Rugers in the CAS world)!

Mike

Hey Jim Watson! I do that to my Dragoons more often!! Lol (appreciate ya!!)

 

[mjsdwash]

Wow!!!! They're so simple, new parts just drop in. There's no setup for a particular purpose. Hmmmm . . . something known for since new . . . first I've heard of it. Hardened sear breaks a hammer . . . how's that work? Hardened hammer and sear peens the notches? Do tell!!! I love learning about this stuff!!! An Uberti Cattleman (plain Jane ( sorry Jane!)) can be made to perform better than a NM Ruger!! . . . with no transfer bar to break (fairly common problem for the Rugers in the CAS world)!

Mike

Hey Jim Watson! I do that to my Dragoons more often!! Lol (appreciate ya!!)

well, okay then, fanning a single action is just fine and everyone know it, and you can do it with everything from a factory 1st gen Colt to an out of the box $400 reproduction. No worry, it can take it.

In general, an average person can fit a new sear in a SAA. Maybe not everyone, but I would say most.

I'm going to say if you put severe stress on very small parts, the hardened part will damage the unhardened part. Hardening every part costs more money. But if you feel that wrong, my apologies.

Yea, the Rugers cannot be tuned as good as the SAA's, not going to dispute that. But he wanted a solution to a problem. Ruger's the simple answer.

Damn, no one kicked your puppy.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Lol!!! mj, I don't have a puppy!!
What I do have is a shop and in that shop I spend many many hours tuning a S.A. revolver for a customer. Most are "fun guns" for customers that are particular about the function of their revolver. Many though are competition shooters that demand a S.A. to run race after race after race . . . and that's what I give them. To hear how "simple" they are and easy to fix by just replacing part after part is a little bit of a slap in the face for those that actually know what's going on.
Apology accepted but not needed. I'm very proud of what I do and sometimes casual comments land a little rough.

Mike

 

[whbjr24]

After re-reading my post above, I don't mean it to sound crass. I still think the problem is too much hammer over travel.

Mike

Thanks Mike, and no problem. Appreciate the suggestion and I’ll look into it. Bill

 

[mjsdwash]

Lol!!! mj, I don't have a puppy!!
What I do have is a shop and in that shop I spend many many hours tuning a S.A. revolver for a customer. Most are "fun guns" for customers that are particular about the function of their revolver. Many though are competition shooters that demand a S.A. to run race after race after race . . . and that's what I give them. To hear how "simple" they are and easy to fix by just replacing part after part is a little bit of a slap in the face for those that actually know what's going on.
Apology accepted but not needed. I'm very proud of what I do and sometimes casual comments land a little rough.

Mike

well allright, I've seen you around, and agree with what you have to say, in general, and now. I got the idea the OP was reluctant to send it out again, and still wanted to keep doing things that would break it. Nothing really wrong with that, so Rugers are good at taking abuse. That said, my NM Vaq still has a squishy trigger.
I'll admit that fitting parts is a skill as well, but if we're talking about a single part prone to failure, it may be worth it to learn fixing himself. Now putting in an entire ignition set and bolt, thats not something I would tell someone to do.
What the OP's describing seems like it would be hard on even a tuned, fitted set.
And as always, nuance is lost in text, so all things said are meant with fun.

 

[jmorris]

Not really sure you can just "surface harden" a sear . . . or even a trigger. It's a small part. Any hardening will be "through hardening "

However, the depth of hardening is ultimately limited by the inability of carbon to diffuse deeply into solid steel, and a typical depth of surface hardening with this method is up to 1.5 mm. Other techniques are also used in modern carburizing, such as heating in a carbon-rich atmosphere. Small items may be case-hardened by repeated heating with a torch and quenching in a carbon rich medium, such as the commercial products Kasenit/ Casenite or "Cherry Red".

Even the “up to” 1.5 mm is just under .060”. However, it can certainly be thinner, I have seen folks “stone” past the hardened surface and wind up with one that doesn’t hold up for long. “Through hardening” things even like a firing pin can make them more susceptible to breaking. Kind of like a coat hanger isn’t likely to break but a “harder than Superman’s head” carbide drill the same diameter is quite fragile when it comes to distortion. Somewhere in between the two is a surface that is somewhat resistant to wear but can flex without shattering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case-hardening

 

[MEHavey]

Slip-Cocking/Shooting:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-hammer-on-single-action.131466/#post-1605944
(Is either of these what the OP is really doing?)