Might want a 308, but I have an '06...

[Bobson]

Not a debate folks. Just give me advice please. So far I'm not swayed to add the 308. I've been looking at a Savage speciffically. The specs call out a 1:10 twist for it too. Would that then also lend itself to heavier 308 rounds?

Yes, a faster twist grants greater stability to heavier bullets, which is a benefit when shooting at farther distances. It is possible, however, to overspin a bullet, which depends on factors including the build of the bullet itself, as well as its velocity. Generally, a longer bullet of the same build will be more aerodynamic, which gives it a higher ballistic coefficient, which basically (and I do mean basically) means it will be less effected by external factors (ex: wind) during flight.

I highly recommend TiborasaurusRex' "Sniper 101" series on YouTube. Don't let his name or series name dissuade you from watching; he's very intelligent and an extremely talented/learned marksman. You'll learn something new in every video of the series.

Link:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn

The main benefit of .308 for long range shooting is bullet selection. Due to its popularity (not its effectiveness or efficiency), you'll likely have an easier time finding bullets and factory ammo locally. That said, 7mm bullets (.284) are inherently superior to .30 cal in terms of BC and thus, efficiency at longer ranges. Understand: I'm not saying 7mm bullets are better.

Keep learning, keep asking questions. Anyone relating your ability or your potential to your thirst for knowledge isn't worth your time. What you'll learn from shooting can't be replaced, but let's face it, this knowledge is free. Guns and ammo are not.

 

[eastbank]

most compare the 308 with the 3006 by useing the top load in the 308 and a mild load in the 3006. i own several rifles in both calibers and load for them and no way can a 308 match the 3006 in speed with any bullet.my favorite load for a hunting rem 700 in 3006 is a 165gr bullet with a healthy load of RL22 for right 3000fps and MOA. eastbank.

 

[lysanderxiii]

There is nothing the .308 Winchester cartridge can do that the .30-06 cartridge can't do better.

Except fit in a 3" magazine....

 

[HexHead]

Since you already have a .30-06, which will handle the heavier bullets, I'd get a 7mm-08 instead of a .308.

 

[FHBrumb]

This boars has changed. Please forgive me for asking for input from experienced sources. Enjoy your thread guys...

 

[jrdolall]

I would ask what the purpose of the new rifle might be. If you are a target shooter then the lighter recoil of the 308 might be a good thing. If you are a deer hunter then you may want a 308 because you don't have one. It won't help you kill deer even a tiny bit better than the '06.
Why not go to the semi pistol forum and ask if 9mm is better than .40? You will always start a rumble because people get all wound up in their favorite caliber and feel offended when someone else has a different opinion.
I see from an earlier post that the 308 is 25% more accurate but I don't buy that? If we are talking about picking out a Savage rifle from the available stock at Gander Mountain and shooting commercially available ammo then the 308 will not be one whit better than the 30-06. If we are talking about building a new rifle and hand loading our rounds to best suit that rifle then I can't add anything to the discussion because I don't require, nor could I personally take advantage of, that type of performance from my rifles.
Around here, Alabama and Georgia, 30-06 ammo is easier to find in Walmart. Day in and out you will find multiple brands and weights of 30-06 ammo and maybe two of 308. Is that a reason NOT to buy a 308? Not to me.
I do not own, and never have owned, a rifle in 308, though I have shot plenty of them. I shot with snipers at Benning and they were mostly 308 but a few were '06. At 800+ yards they were both putting bullets on target 25 years ago. My brother in law is a retired Gunny and was a Marine sniper. He used a 308 in service. I started out with '06 when I was a babe and have never been recoil sensitive. I have "evolved" into different calibers (currently 6.5x55) but have never gotten a 308. If I found one at a good price then I would certainly buy one.
Bottom line for me is for you to drop the $500 and get into a different caliber

 

[ford8nr]

This boars has changed.

??
I own both and have never seen much difference in potential. They are two different rifles though. My Win M70 06 shoots slightly more accurate then my Ruger M77 308. That being said I love the short action Ruger and it usually my go to gun. This past year I re-stocked the M70 And have really grown to like it so we'll see. After re reading your initial post if you're looking for a long range gun there are probably better choices then either.

 

[eldon519]

The .30-06 is more powerful, but it is heavier by necessity of the long action and usually needs a longer barrel to get the full benefit of that extra power.

The .308 runs at slightly higher pressure and is more efficient.

For instance if you compare the top 3 150-gr loads on Hodgdon's website between the two, the .30-06 makes a little over 3% more velocity (~100 FPS) but does so at the expense of roughly 20% more powder.

Jumping up to the 175gr loads with the same methodology, the .30-06 gets 4% more velocity but at a price of 25% more powder usage.

That isn't really meant to be all-encompassing or comprehensive, just a rough showing of their max abilities. It would probably also be interesting to average all of the data rather than just the top loads to compare what an average load might do, but I don't personally care to take the time to do so.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

Here is my take on the '06 vs. .308 having owned both.

'06 Pros:
A little more punch at longer range
Able to stabilize heavier bullets
Always able to find a variety on the shelf (even during ammo scares)

'06 Cons:
Ammo is a tad more spendy
Length of round requires a long action
More powder thrown when reloading

.308 Pros:
Short action leads to a slightly lighter weight rifle
Shorter bolt throw
Less powder needed for reloading
Same punch at 200 yards or less

.308 Cons:
Ammo can be hard to find during ammo scares
Less punch at longer distance
Not able to stabilize heavier bullets as easily (200 & 220 grain)

In short, it comes down to preference and what you are going to do with it. Either cartridge will do fine for deer or elk. Since they mostly load the same bullet, it is 6 to 1/2 dozen.

 

[eldon519]

You guys got me curious because of the old wisdom that the .30-06 does better with heavier bullets.

Using same methodology of comparing the top 3 loads at 200grs, the .30-06 average actually was only 34fps (1.4%) higher than the .308 and surprisingly, the .308 top load bested the top .30-06 load by 5fps (granted insignificant). The extra powder consumption of the .30-06 was over 27%. For the 150 and 175 gr loads, the .308 and .30-06 used the same bullet. For the 200gr loads, the .308 data uses a Swift SP while the .30-06 data uses a Speer SP, so that could be some explanation of the unexpected results. There is also 200gr data for the .30-06 with an Accubond, but I figured SP to SP would be closest and also the two .30-06 loads look pretty similar in terms of velocity.

Moving onto the 208 gr loads and back to comparing the same bullet (Hornady A-Max), the .30-06 produced 2.6% more velocity (~65 fps) at the expense of nearly 29% more powder.

That is the highest bullet weight the Hodgdon data shows in common. Again this is just rough number crunching, so I wouldn't draw any hard and fast conclusions from this. It would seem to show their maximum performance potential is pretty darn close to one another across the board though.

 

[Clint M]

I have own/owned both in several rifles and 30-06 or 308 are fine cartridges that allow the hunter/user to hunt anything pretty much in the US, maybe for dangerous game I would pick something with more umphh. They are nearly the same cartridge as far as end use goes, but as has been mentioned the rifle package, weight, action, feed etc can make it a totally different tool if that's what you are looking for.

If it were my I would choose something based off the 308 case if I had a 30-06. I really like the 260 rem, however ended up with a 7mm-08 Sako A-II that is a dream to hunt with, it's a really nice rifle, and I enjoy taking it hunting. My son has a 260, and I have had several, it's has an advantage in my opinion as a dual role varmint/deer cartridge the 95gr v-max is outstanding coyote bullet, and plenty of 6.5mm deer bullets as well as target bullets. I handload so that is something to think about as well, 308/30-06 ammo is plentiful and cheap compared to 260, and even 7mm-08 it's something to think about before purchasing any rifle today.

Whatever you decide make sure you are happy with the rifle itself before purchasing as extra money to get what you really want or what fits you and the purpose is cheaper than trying to pay or customize a rifle to do so after purchased. Don't overlook the used market either, I have purchased some great deals on used rifles, and I really like the Sako's of years past not to mention most deer rifle sized cartridges have less than 50 rounds fired even after years of use. The Sako I mention in 7mm-08 was new never fired I purchased used, it was/is a true 100% as new rifle, I purchased a Used TC Icon like new with 5 rounds fired, 98% of the time I see used deer rifles for sale they have been fired very little maybe to sight in.

 

[eastbank]

i don,t know what 308 they are useing, but i think you should get a crony and use it. and show me a .308 that will shoot a 165gr bullet at 3000 fps. this LH 700 rem 3006 that weights 8.4lbs with sling-steel burris 10x and steel rings-base will do it with RL 22 and shoot MOA 3 shot groups at 100yds. its the same thing as comparing a chey 283 against a chevy 327 engine, more cubes mean more horse power and rifle cases are the same. the 308 and the 3006 used up to their full potional are both good calibers for hunting or target shooting, but make no mistake the 308 is no 3006. eastbank.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have 5 .30-06s. I also have a .308 -- I bought it because it was a 99 Savage, and the 99 does not have a long enough receiver to handle a .30-06.

 

[eldon519]

eastbank,

Hodgdon's data for both showed a 24" barrel. They don't have any overlap in the bullets for 165gr though. Nosler's data for the 165/168 spectrum does show one .30-06 load touching 3002fps. The highest .308 load they show is 2910fps. So I guess if having 3000fps is a critical milestone for you, then the .30-06 is your ticket.

So having the same look at top 3 loads off the Nosler data, the .30-06 produces a little less than 3% (81fps) extra velocity at the expense of 23.5% extra powder consumption. Pretty consistent with the Hodgdon data for other bullet weights.

I guess to follow your analogy, larger engines also tend to get worse fuel efficiency.

 

[Bart B.]

Valid accuracy comparison; .30-06 vs. .308.......

In 1963, when the .308 was first used head to head with .30-06 rifles at the National Matches, it handily won the Nationals. Over the next 3 years, several top-ranked master-class competitors around the country put .308 barrels in their Win. 70 long actions (first commercial action to be fitted with .308 parts) that had previously used .30-06 ones. Same quality cases, powder, bullets and powders were loaded in both then the rifles clamped in machine rests to eliminate human variables. Barrels (typically Hart or Obermeyer match grade) were 26" long, 1:11 twists, same bore and groove diameters and SAAMI spec chambers for each. .30-06's tested about 2/3 MOA at 300 yards, 1 MOA at 600 yards. .308's shot about 1/3 MOA at 300 yards, 1/2 MOA at 600. 10 and 20 shot strings were used in the tests. Here’s David Tubb’s machine rest he (and his Dad) plus dozens of others on theirs of the same design used back in the 1960's to learn the accuracy differences between these two cartridges:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/254765260/in/album-72157594303093714/

During that same time. The USAF and USN rifle teams shooting 7.62 NATO chambered Garands also learned how much more accurate they were than the .30-06 ones were with M1's rebuilt to the same specs. They finally had a service rifle that would shoot 2/3 MOA at 600 yards.

By 1966, the .308 chambered rifles had broken all the records previously set by the .30-06. And because so many unbreakable ties were shot with the .308 at 200 through 600 yards on the 60+ year old target’s big scoring rings, the NRA reduced the ring sizes to about half of they were.

Sierra Bullets had been using the .308 to test most of their 30 caliber match bullets since the late 50's because their rail guns with the best barrels shot them better from that case compared to the .30-06. They finally were able to get 10-shot test groups at 100 yards under .2 MOA with match bullets.

Valid muzzle velocity comparison; .308 vs. .30-06....

I typically ignore all comparisons using shoulder fired rifles; way too many variables to make them fair. Instead, I use SAAMI specs using their standard test barrels in fixed mounts and same internal dimensions for length, bore and groove as well as peak pressure specs for each. That way, the “playing field” is level. See pages 20 and 21 as well as pages 168 and 178 in:

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

Valid bullet weight and BC comparisons.....

.308's have shot 240 and 250 grain Sierra HPMK bullets in long range matches producing better scores than any bullet used in .30-06's. I've watched David Tubb do it more than once.

Sierra's 180-gr. 28 caliber HPMK's BC is .610 to .660. Their 30 caliber 240-gr. HPMK's BC is .685 to .711.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/bullets/rifle.cfm

 

[PJSprog]

This boars has changed. Please forgive me for asking for input from experienced sources. Enjoy your thread guys...

You asked for people's opinions on .308 vs .30-06, and that's exactly what you've gotten in nearly every response. What is it you think your not getting here? What were you expecting of such a question?

 

[eastbank]

again be honest and take a 308 and a crony and try to get 2900+fps in a 308 with a 165gr nosler bt with out showing signs of over pressure or locking up the bolt. i have tried with several 308,s and thats what happened. eastbank.

 

[Gtscotty]

My experience in loading '06 and .308 has been similar to eastbank's, I can't begin to approach '06 top velocities with the .308 and 165 or 180 gr bullets without seeing pressure. My current '06 loads are 165 @ 2920 fps (max), and 180 @ 2830 fps (under max), no pressure signs. If you're getting close to that with your 22" .308 I'd prefer to not stand next to you while you're firing it.

That said, either is way more than enough for deer, and I generally use one of the .308's for poking holes in paper because that particular rifle is such a sweet shooter.

 

[Delmar]

Standard, rack grade rifles in both calibers are going to be dependent on the individual rifle rather than any huge difference between the cartridges. Some 06 are going to shoot a bit fast, some 308s are going to shoot a bit slow.

Not a lot of difference between the two unless you are dedicating it to a particular discipline. If you are hunting heavy game, might want to take advantage of the 06 ability to launch heavier slugs. If its a paper puncher, the 308 has advantages of a better case shape to burn powder, a shorter receiver which is a bit stiffer, and a lot of choices in match ammo.

I think one of the reasons some companies are going to a 308 in a 1:10 inch twist is that they use the same barrel, generally speaking. The only difference is going to be the chamber. Economy speaks too.

 

[Bart B.]

If box magazine receiver stiffness is so important to so many people, why are Remington 700 ones so often preferred over the Winchester 70 ones?

The Rem's are only half to a third as stiff as the Win's when measured.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

I shoot M1 Garands and a Win M70EW in .30-06, and a Ruger 77RSI and two precision .308s as well as a M1A SM in .308. As to hunting, they are equally good for anything I hunt and for Mil High Power, my M1A is more accurate but my M1s and M1A are all equally fun. 175r SMKs give my 1,000 yard supersonic capability.

Machts nicht (aka "Mox Nix").

Harry, aka Flattbuscher Heinz

 

[Delmar]

If box magazine receiver stiffness is so important to so many people, why are Remington 700 ones so often preferred over the Winchester 70 ones?

My guess would be that the Remington is easier to bed.

A better question is why they would go to a magazine fed receiver if their only criteria is the stiffness of the receiver?????

Another question would be why so many law enforcement groups and military go with a 700 style action when Winchester has been available?

If I were setting up a bolt action for maximum accuracy, it would be a single shot with a minimal cut for ejection/feeding. And rather than deal with the many compound angles of a Winchester receiver, I would go with a Remington style round receiver and sleeve it.

 

[MEHavey]

So far I'm not swayed to add the 308...

I applaud your judgement

I you already have an accurate`06, especially in a classic action like
a Springfield, there is zero practical rationale for adding a 308Win.

 

[CB900F]

FHBrumb;

What would you want to do with the new rifle? Hunt, or punch paper? My personal choice for either would be the .30-06, but the rifles would be different to accommodate the intended use.

I'm a dedicated ought-6 guy and I'll stay that way, no reason to change, none at all. If paper-punching were my objective, I'd build the most accurate ought-6 I could just to irritate the .308 guys. As for the standard action/short action debate, it's meaningless IMHO until and unless you can prove you're a good enough shot for it to make a provable difference in accuracy on your targets. I also know that if I were to build that target dedicated .30-06 I strongly doubt the Savage company would be in any way involved with the project. In other words it'd most likely be built around a Defiance action, Lilja barrel, Accuracy International stock, etc., etc..

For hunting, what I've got will do, and has done, just fine. I have taken a buck antelope at a lazed 470 yards with one of my .30-06's. One shot, with the bullet entering the animal about 2" from my ideal bullet placement point. The result was him on his back with all four feet in the air, DOA of the bullet. No reason you can't do the same with the rig you've got, though for all I know it may need some fussing.

900F

 

[Bart B.]

Delmar, do you think a plastic steel bedded Win. 70 action's not stiff enough for a 30" long heavy 30 caliber magnum barrel and shoot 15 to 30 consecutive shots inside 1/2 MOA at a thousand yards?

Remember that when the Rem 700's were chosen by the military for sniper rifles back in the 1960's was because Winchester was in dire financial straits; they didn't want to use stuff from a company that may not survive. In spite of their competitive shooters wanting the Winchester as it was/is more reliable and maintainable in the field.

I'll not mention the problem details round receivers had resisting torque to stay in place when epoxy bedded.