Might want a 308, but I have an '06...

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Bart, I just re-read my statement and I don't see anything about saying that a Winchester Model 70 receiver not being up to the task.

What I did say is that Remington's round receiver is easier to bed. True, the round receiver caused some stock splitting, mainly due to people who didn't know better horsing on the action screws.

Remington, back in the 1950s-1960s was considered a pretty accurate for a production, off the shelf rifle. The 720 series and later 700 series rifles were taking a lot of trophies, so its plain that there was some accuracy inherent in the design. Plus it was cheaper.

Winchester, rather than replace its tooling for the Model 70 tried to go with a cheaper design of what they had been producing since the Model 54 in order to compete and folks didn't like it, even though it was more accurate on average than the old style Model 70. Odd that they turned their nose up at the push feed design yet it was okay for Big Green.

I don't buy for a second that the reason the government didn't go Winchester for their sniper rifle because of their financial situation. Remember the Jeep five-quarter pickups they bought? Jeep was going down the tubes fast by the mid 60s but that didn't stop Uncle Sam for buying that turd. And when Jeep became American Motors, they bought a lot of their product for staff and MP cruisers too.

But the worm does indeed turn. Now Savage, which wasn't considered much of a rifle is now is considered by many the darling of the F class due to its cost and accuracy, while the cheapened Remington is derided. People finally stopped squawking about the barrel nut Savage uses and began to see the benefits. Simple to headspace, and for shooters on a budget, very simple to swap barrels.
 
I don't buy for a second that the reason the government didn't go Winchester for their sniper rifle because of their financial situation.
Carlos Hathcock, setting up the Marine sniper program, wanted the Model 70, but the old pre-64 version. When Winchester wouldn't accommodate him, he went to Remington, which was only too glad to produce anything the Marines wanted -- and thereby captured the US Sniper program.
Remember the Jeep five-quarter pickups they bought?

The Jeep was rated as a quarter ton, not a five-quarter ton.

Jeep was going down the tubes fast by the mid 60s but that didn't stop Uncle Sam for buying that turd. And when Jeep became American Motors, they bought a lot of their product for staff and MP cruisers too.
The Army went to FMC for the M151 Jeep, not to Jeep or General Motors.
 
again be honest and take a 308 and a crony and try to get 2900+fps in a 308 with a 165gr nosler bt with out showing signs of over pressure or locking up the bolt. i have tried with several 308,s and thats what happened. eastbank.
What powders were you using? My hunting load (308) with 150 barnes ttsx over rl15 gets me right at 3000 fps in a Kimber 22 inch barrel. I think I could touch 2900 with the 165g and a 24 inch barrel.
 
I like my rifles short and light or light for me, The 308 can do just fine with a 18-20" barrel and that's why I chose 308
The 06 has always had more velocity but usually a longer barrel length also
I agree except for configuration of rifles if I had a 06 I would go another caliber to really change, Its up to you, 300WM now there is a change or 338 That's why they make so darn many calibers I guess!!
 
47 grs rl15 fills a 308 case to the top, and that does not get 3000fps with a 150gr bullet and a 165 gr bullet will take up more room in the 308 case making 47 grs to much to seat that bullet and the pressure would be to high for me to shoot. eastbank.
 
Wrong vehicles, Vern. the five quarter jeep pickups replaced the old dodge model. It was the M715 and was known as the Five Quarter because it was a 1 1/4 ton. Not talking about the M151 MUTT, a completely different animal.
 
I just bought another 30-06. Nothing against the .308 but I have been shooting the 30-06 for the last forty years and don't feel the need for a .308. It just boils down to preference. I have killed a lot of deer with the 06 and my BIL has killed a lot with a .308. We don't even have this debate.
 
Many people chronograph a cartridge load for a given bullet weight and get 100 to 200 fps faster than commercial or SAAMI spec'd load does. Rarely, if ever, is a piezo transducer pressure system used to measure actual peak pressure. Virtually everyone uses the least accurate, non-standardized, highly-optionated and emotional based system ever devised. . . .or dreamed up.

Their chronograph is giving them a message. Many don't understand what it means.
 
The powder said to give 2900fps out of a 24" .308 with the 165gr Nosler was Big Game. I've personally never used it. Most of my .308 loads have been with BLC2 or surplus powder. I've seen some chrono data out of a 16.5" .308 with Barnes 165gr bullets and BLC2 that would not surprise me if it might touch 2900 with a 24" tube, I'd guess at least 2850 would be realistic.

But as Bart B pointed out, chrono data only tells you so much and likewise with lots of pressure signs. .308 already runs higher than a .30-06. An over-pressure .30-06 will have a casehead/primer that'll look about identical to a spec .308 load since pressure wise it is already a +P of sorts. Over spec .308 would be more like +P+ pressure for the .30-06. Of course it doesn't matter much for most platforms as it's already the same action and same casehead that'll go to 65kpsi in a .270 anyway.
 
Many people chronograph a cartridge load for a given bullet weight and get 100 to 200 fps faster than commercial or SAAMI spec'd load does.

And that's primarily due to several reasons. First, commercial loads are not loaded right up to SAAMI spec peak pressure; their lawyers simply wouldn't allow it. Second, even allowing for using the same length barrel as is being used in published load data, velocities obtained will vary greatly from one barrel to another. For example, I have 2 .30-06 rifles with 26" barrels. One has a factory match barrel, and the other a Krieger barrel. Using the same load, the factory barrel gets 2875fps, while the Krieger does 2950fps. There is simply too much variance in barrels and chambers to accurately predict velocities.

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Don
 
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People who study SAAMI pressure specs and understand them easily see that a third or more of both 30-06 and 308 loads overlap each other at about 61,000 psi (51,000 cup). Velocity's measured at 5 yards with +/- 90 fps tolerance.

Arsenal pressure specs for the military versions were the same at 50,000 cup. Chronograph distance centered at 26 yards with a +/- 30 fps tolerance.

Probably less than 1% of reloaders use piezo transducers to measure pressure in their hand loads. All the rest comprise virtually all the others. Prove me wrong. Nobody has to date.

Does anybody have proof that commercial ammo is loaded to less than SAAMI specs for legal reasons? With virtually everyone shooting factory ammo in hand held commercial rifles with slightly oversize bore and groove diameters, it stands to basic reasoning they'll get lower muzzle velocities than a SAAMI spec barrel in a hard mounted universal receiver that doesn't recoil so velocity standards are meaningful. That's very often translated to lower peak pressures by folks. And that's their reasoning that factory ammo's loaded to less numbers than SAAMI specs state. To say nothing of the fact that a several dozen fps spread in average muzzle velocity with the same rifle and ammo across several people is normal.

I've shot 7.62 NATO proof loads (67,500 cup) in Garands and showed a dozen or so fired cases to several folks asking them their opinions on their pressure. Answers ranged from "a few look a little hot but all are OK" to "they all look good to me."
 
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I worked for Remington developing ammunition and it's a completely different world compared to the relatively simple world of handloading. For example, handloaders don't have to worry about pressures at - 20F, 70F and 150F which is the standard test regimen when developing/testing production loads. I'm not talking about a few loads shot at those temperatures, there are hundreds at each temperature and just a few over pressure often means back to the drawing board. Now add in the capabilities of the reloading equipment with considerably more margin for error compared to handloads, numerous other variables, and the need to pass cold, ambient and hot testing with production loads, and you might begin to realize how much of a challenge it is.
 
MCMXI, any comment about the claim that commercial ammo is loaded below SAAMI specs for legal reasons?

Remington's web site lists their .30-06 180-gr. CoreLokt bullets leave at 2700 fps. SAAMI specs for that round 180's are 60,000 psi max average and 2690 fps muzzle velocity (15 feet).

Same bullet in their .308 ammo lists 2620 fps. SAAMI data lists that round at 2600 fps with 62,000 psi max average.
 
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Bart B. said:
MCMXI, any comment about the claim that commercial ammo is loaded below SAAMI specs for legal reasons?

Bart, I never spoke with or met a lawyer during my time at Remington. The ballistics engineer oversees and approves all new and current loads based on well established accuracy, pressure and velocity specifications. Safety was always a concern but I was never aware of any effort to load to less than SAAMI pressures. If a load proved to be accurate and safe for pressure at the temperatures mentioned it was good to go.
 
MCMXI, thanks for confirming what a former Rem. field rep as well as a Lake City AAP ballistic tech (former ballistics tech at Remington) mentioned back in the late '60's when I was investigating why M118 match ammo (LC66 lot 12064) had a few bad rounds in a box of 20. Remington was operating LCAAP then.

None of the military teams liked their rifle match ammo after Olin/Winchester took over in the '80's and put ball powder in it. ATK operates it now.
 
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I wanna know what a 308 might add. I know a 308 is known for long range consistency. Is there any reason that my '06 should be snubbed to shoot at longer ranges? Recoil is a bit more, but any other reason to leave the '06 home and pop longer shots with a 308?

My '06 is a sporterized 1903 that is truly beautiful. I think it's a 1 in 10 twist? I wanna say that's best in heavier bullets, 165 to 180ish?

30 call Gurus please chime in. Won't my '06 do anything that a 308 will do?

I call longer shots from 400 to 1000 yards...
.30-06 will do anything .308 will do, and often better. It was used for 1000 yd. competition and for sniping long before the .308 came to be. It has taken varmints and elephants. It killed many of America's enemies in many wars. If you handload, you can make it do anything you need it to do, short of take out a tank. If you already have a .30-06, keep it. You can add a .308 to it if you want, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. I have a .308 that I am considering converting to .30-06, as a matter of fact. The reason is I have dies, brass primed and ready to go, and tons of loading data from 35 years of loading -06. I picked up the .308 for a song, and don't have dies & brass.
 
I love my 30-06s and have several but ended up getting into 308 because I wanted a AR type platform. Below my SR-762 next to a Ruger No.1 International in 30-06. I have had thoughts of maybe getting a Ruger Guide rifle in 308 also.

RugerNo1ampSR762_zps0afe8f26.jpg
 
BartB;

You know, for paper-punching you're undoubtedly correct. However, I've yet to meet a big game animal that cared whether or not the bullet was a quarter-inch closer to the ideal placement point or not. For down range energy, I'll take the ought-6. It certainly has proven itself to be accurate enough for the job to me. Over several decades of testing I might add.

900F
 
To the OP, no, there is almost nothing a 308 will do that a 30-06 won't. It will out perform it for NRA Hi Power competitions. But a 223 will outperform the 308 in that particular competition. So what? As has been mentioned, the 30-06 will handle heavier bullets than 308. Which makes it better for bigger game here in N. America.
 
If you check out what's used to produce the best scores in high power matches, you'll learn that the .223 Rem only excels in service rifle matches at ranges through 600 yards. .308's rule the roost in long range service rifle matches. 6mm's produce the best scores in match rifle and F class competition through 600 yards. 26 caliber ones do best at long range (over 600 yards when allowed. .308's are better for long range Palma matches even though the .223 Rem's allowed.

By the year 2012, the US Army Marksmanship Unit finally talked the NRA into letting the AR10 in .308 Win. be classified as a "service rifle" for NRA high power competition so they could produce better scores at long range. They no longer had any M14NM's to compete with the 7.62 NATO Garands and M1A's that produced overall better scores at 1000 yards than any 5.56 NATO platform.

I was one of the first persons to shoot an AR (M16) across the National Match Course at the 1971 NRA/DCM Nationals in the first service rifle match it was allowed in. Along with other service team members who shot it, we all believed it would eventually replace the 7.62 NATO round when long, heavy bullets could be made to shoot accurate enough, but only through 600 yards. The Army and Marine Corps teams tried everything to make their 22 caliber centerfires do well at 1000 yards, but were not all that successful.

.308's handle any bullet weight a .30-06 will. They just leave about 100 fps slower; insignificant for hunting purposes.
 
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This is why I own both

Kimber 308, 5 lbs 15 oz as pictured. You ain't gonna do that with a 30-06 and enjoy shooting it. Yea, I can get 100 fps more speed with 150's. I can get 150-200 fps more speed with the 30-06 and heavier bullets. But I'll take the lighter rifle 90% of the time.

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i,d take a light weight .260 or a 7mm08 before i would take a .308. eastbank.
 
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