Panzerschwein
member
Remy already has the TAC-14 out in 20 bore. Come on Mossy!!
Mossberg Shockwave
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syntaxerrorsix
Member
As these PGO's are considered "Other" and not a handgun is there any reason why a vertical foregrip couldn't be added?
A 5 shot snub or a little 22lr pocket pistol is harder to shoot well than a full size service pistol, has worse sights, and is just less effective all around, but they are easier to carry and you're more likely to have one when you need it. And any gun is better than no gun, when you need a gun.I think of little shotguns like this the same way; I can do most everything better with my full size 870 riot gun with ghost rings..... everything except tote it around. Something like the shockwave or the remington tac-14 can be strapped to the side of a backpack in bear country, or it can be wrapped in a bedroll and lashed to the back of a Harley for a long road trip. It will fit in most luggage and be taken into a hotel room without raising any eyebrows or alerting potential thieves to the presence of firearms, (which they are always looking to steal).
It's not as effective as a full size riot gun, true.... but given a choice between a 12ga, even a little stubby one, and a pistol with which to cover a doorway or a hallway or most any other self-defense scenario, I'll want a 12 gauge.
Don't think of it as a best option; think of it as the best option you might have at the time.
It's not as effective as a full size riot gun, true.... but given a choice between a 12ga, even a little stubby one, and a pistol with which to cover a doorway or a hallway or most any other self-defense scenario, I'll want a 12 gauge.
Don't think of it as a best option; think of it as the best option you might have at the time.
I went into Rural King looking at a stumpy little .38 Rock Island as a toss-in-the-trunk gun for my weekend driver. I carry a 9mm or full size .45 when I can or pocket .380 when I can't. The .38 would just be something to keep rolled up in an oiled rag for emergencies. I have an old 9mm Norinco for the other vehicle..
Anyway, as I'm waiting to look at the revolver, I mosey down a case or two and there they have a Tac-14 at a good price. I have to say, I like the look of the Shockwave a little better, but I'm more familiar with the 870 manual of arms. Also, I'm not a fan of the strap on the Shockwave's foregrip. My brain has me questioning the .38 now. The Tac would store under the spare tire cover, I could keep one of my spare bandoleers stocked with a few different flavors of shot, and I would end up with a very secure, low dollar, and powerful back up. Might be a nice piece to keep for cabin duty as well.
A full size shotgun makes more sense, but even with a PGO it won't fit in the spot I'm thinking of stashing it. If I hunted, my ol' Ithaca 37 featherweight would go along. If I had to bug out and needed an emergency weapon with higher power than my carry pistol, 4 + 1 rounds of 00 buck might feel mighty comforting.
Anyway, as I'm waiting to look at the revolver, I mosey down a case or two and there they have a Tac-14 at a good price. I have to say, I like the look of the Shockwave a little better, but I'm more familiar with the 870 manual of arms. Also, I'm not a fan of the strap on the Shockwave's foregrip. My brain has me questioning the .38 now. The Tac would store under the spare tire cover, I could keep one of my spare bandoleers stocked with a few different flavors of shot, and I would end up with a very secure, low dollar, and powerful back up. Might be a nice piece to keep for cabin duty as well.
A full size shotgun makes more sense, but even with a PGO it won't fit in the spot I'm thinking of stashing it. If I hunted, my ol' Ithaca 37 featherweight would go along. If I had to bug out and needed an emergency weapon with higher power than my carry pistol, 4 + 1 rounds of 00 buck might feel mighty comforting.
Sistema1927
Member
I bought a Shockwave today. Do I need it? No, but it should be fun. Planning on mounting a rail, LaserLyte CM-MK4, and a TacStar side saddle. If it proves to be accurate in this configuration it might become the car trip gun (to supplement my normal CCW).
I don't like the fact that most scabbards are either too short, exposing the trigger guard, or too long so that you have to go fishing to find it. Also, they scream "GUN!". Have any of you come up with a more discreet option?
I don't like the fact that most scabbards are either too short, exposing the trigger guard, or too long so that you have to go fishing to find it. Also, they scream "GUN!". Have any of you come up with a more discreet option?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Please do keep in mind that the ATF has said if you conceal it it becomes an NFA weapon.
Sistema1927
Member
I think they mean conceal on the person, not carry it in a case. Heck, it came "concealed" in a cardboard box.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Sure, just be cautious.
For example, there are gun bags specifically designed to look like something else, eg tennis racket bags or whatever. If you were to carry such a thing, esp loaded, I don't know how they'd view that.
For example, there are gun bags specifically designed to look like something else, eg tennis racket bags or whatever. If you were to carry such a thing, esp loaded, I don't know how they'd view that.
DT Guy
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I'd think with a good laser sight, that becomes an entirely different-and far more effective-weapon. All of a sudden, aiming from the hip is viable, the handy size is no real drawback (since you don't have to index it on a shoulder or cheek) and it becomes (IMHO) a hell of a house gun.
Larry
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Does it? In reality? Generally we know that aiming anything with a laser sight is noticeably slower than with iron sights or a red dot. That's provable quickly on your own range, if you have a shot timer. You're never going to be as fast at "follow the bouncing ball" looking for that glowing dot to be printed on ... the wall, the couch, the ceiling, the floor, and, whoa there it is on the target! (wait, whoops, now it's gone again) -- as you are shouldering a shotgun or rifle and seeing that bead or front sight right there at the end of the gun where it always is. Iron sights are always faster. Optics are even a bit faster than that.
So laser sights are only a good idea if you really can't see your sights at all (maybe older folks with bad eyes, shooting small guns with bad sights) or for whatever reason you can't get the gun up to index in your line of sight. (Maybe you're shooting with night vision gear on, or using a riot shield.)
But if you're in your HOUSE, why would you not just use a full-stocked shotgun and get all the benefits of fast pointing that real shotguns have evolved for centuries to give you? Why would we say a PGO shotgun with a laser sight is a "hell of a house gun" when the most plain-Jane traditional shotgun would be FAR better?
There isn't, in that case, ANY benefit to not having a stock...so the Shockwave is a lousy "also-ran" in comparison.
syntaxerrorsix
Member
Because everything is subjective. I find maneuvering with a PGO compared to my standard 870 much easier in confined areas such as hallways. With a vertical foregrip you can easily and accurately use iron sights. If a user practices as much with a PGO as they do with a regular shotgun they would likely see the benefits at typical indoor ranges. It seems easier to poo poo the idea than it does to learn something new.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Not if you've already put a lot of time into it and have proved how the systems work relative to each other. Which, we have. (And have a very long, detailed thread on it.)
Then it becomes easier to latch onto an idea that sounds "truthy" (i.e.: that PGO shotguns are somehow the best of both worlds, instead of the worst traits of either), than it is to acknowledge that this kewl gizmo is really just a toy and a poor substitute for the weapons we already have.
But no where near as easily and accurately as a simple shotgun bead on a full-stocked shotgun. YES, you CAN line up sights and fire a PGO shotgun and hit what you're aiming at. Of course you can. But it is slow and hard to track accurately on a moving target (like a bad guy). It is the opposite of what you most need, when you most need it.
As Dave McCracken's long write up and "challenge" showed, if a user practices a lot with a PGO they can get a little better with it. They can NOT approach the speed and accuracy they'd achieve with a full-stocked shotgun.
So you really have to establish that the one benefit they have (compact size) is truly so very important that it outweighs being comparatively slow and inaccurate.
syntaxerrorsix
Member
Like I said. Subjective. I don't find the overwhelming compromise you seem to To each their own.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Everything is subjective.
Except a shot timer.
Except a shot timer.
When was the last time you shot a number of skills drills on a shot timer with each? Also were you using defensive ammo? I don’t have a tac 14 but I do have an SBS and a raptor grip for it. I have done some shooting with it and a shot timer doing a direct comparison to other shotguns I own.
Threads like this make me really curious how many people have even used the items they are discussing and of those how many have done any kind of objective performance evaluation.
I believe you need to do a variety of drills to get a sense of each. I can game the results in a comparison between two guns by picking a drill that doesn’t really invoke the weaknesses of one gun or allow the strengths of another to be a factor. If my drill is 15 yard shots at 6” plates placed 5 yards apart from each other the difference in split times might not show as much as if he drill is firing hammers at single target at 5 yards.
I want to keep testing and working with the raptor grip shotgun because I like to have my own knowledge base based on my own abilities rather than parroting internet chatter that may or may not be true.
My opinion at this point is something like a tac 14 is a poor choice as a general purpose fighting shotgun. For most people it is not going to be an ideal HD weapon or as good of a choice as a number of other shotguns. It is also not as useless as many on the internet would like to claim. It is helpful to have some understanding and practice in how to properly shoot the thing. I personally view it as a niche weapon that is useful in that niche. However, it seems like many people don’t understand that niche and many also don’t really have a need for it. If people haven’t actually used both and haven’t done so with some form of objective measure of performance they may want to try and become more informed and less opinionated.
syntaxerrorsix
Member
I don't use a shot timer for any of my shooting. I've got about 200 (full power 00) rounds through the Tac-14 currently, shooting and transition shooting. I've got maybe three times that count with 870. There's a world of difference when navigating hallways and transitioning to the non dominate hand.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And in order to decide that the PGO gun is a good choice for home defense one would have to establish that the relative ease in moving through a hallway is more important (actually, is WAY more important) than the deficit one experiences in hitting the threat as fast as possible, as accurately as possible, and tracking a moving target. That seems a bit like saying you'd choose to race at Monte Carlo in a car with a nicer, bigger back seat and a good air conditioning system, even though it doesn't have a lot of power or good brakes.
To the points raised specifically, a bit of practice (and maybe training) with a full stocked shotgun can easily overcome the perceived difficulty in moving in a structure or transitioning to the support shoulder, to the point that those factors become unimportant.
A bit of practice and training WON'T, however, make you as good and fast a shot with the PGO as with a stocked gun. One deficiency is surmountable. The other isn't.
Further, if you really do feel that ease of maneuvering in tight quarters and hand transitions are crucially important, one would be miles ahead to use a handgun, which has massive benefits over any shotgun (PGO or otherwise) in those areas, and is actually 10 times easier to get fast hits and transitions with than a PGO gun. Plus being fully operable with only one hand, leaving the other free for flashlights, opening doors, warding off grabs, etc. AND having a higher capacity.
Hence my "worst of both worlds" comments.
I think of a long gun in a home defense scenario, as a "barricade weapon"; something to cover the door with while waiting for help. I can do that much better with my full size riot gun than with a little stubby PGO. But if I'm riding my Harley across a couple states and decide to stop at a motel, it might be nice to have a 12 gauge with me instead of just my pistol, and the only one that I could reasonably carry would be a little one like the shockwave or the tac-14.
I have twice in my life had people try to get into my motel room while I was in it, both times all I had was a pistol.... a 12 gauge would have been very welcome. Even one that wasn't as good as my full size one.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Why? What do you prefer about the PGO 12 ga? The low capacity or the relatively poor aiming, tracking, follow-up shot speed, need to use two hands...?
The ability to roll it up into a bedroll and bungee it down onto the back.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And you can't do that with a handgun? The question was which of those detriments makes you wish you had a PGO shotgun instead of the more usable and capable handgun you already did have?
It's not "instead of", it's "in addition to"..... I'm not going to leave my pistol at home just because I have one of these with me. But if some drunk ex-con is beating and kicking my motel room door at 1am because he's convinced his old lady is in the room with me (she wasn't), and swearing he's going to kill me when he get inside, I just think a load of 12 gauge buckshot is more likely to make him stop and leave me alone if he gets through the door, than any handgun round. I have shot a number of people but always with rifle rounds and even with those, they didn't always stop right away, handgun rounds are even less effective. 12 gauge buckshot at close range OTOH, has a pretty good track record of making people stop doing whatever they were doing that convinced us to shoot them.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It's hard to argue against that point -- except in that it pre-supposes the fact that you've hit the guy, quickly enough, accurately enough. And for that I'd reach for the handgun every single time. But everybody's got to get to the range on their own and assure themselves of sufficient capability in that regard.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
This tread is getting sillier than a Shockwave.
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