Mossberg Shockwave

[hot chili powder]

Geez.....guess I stirred a hornets nest......good discussion though and I found out Mossberg IS gonna make a 20 gauge Shockwave.....I'm in!!!!

 

[freyasman]

I actually am not looking to argue, but since we're really discussing this in such depth, let me ask for more analysis.


Can you tell me what you mean there? Why is this the most effective weapon I'm (you're) going to have? What are you assuming circumstances to be that would make that statement true?


No argument there at all. We could debate the threshold at which there's "enough" payload delivered to/through the target to "resolve the problem" and how that interplays with the comparisons to more maneuverable and easily carried handguns, but for the sake of argument I'll accept that a load of buck is just "better" than a .45 slug or two. (Assuming we're mostly talking about human targets, since the most common scenarios mentioned seem to be hotel room intrusions. Tigers don't do that very often.)


Again...it isn't a terribly good idea to presuppose a first-round hit. There's plenty of "anecdata" to go on which would lead us to conclude a first-round hit is just wonderful...if you can get it...and defenders don't as often as they do.
But perhaps we set that aside for the purposes of discussion, as well.


See, now that is the point of contention, I think. "More than capable" makes it seem like hitting a moving, attacking, human target (probably in the dark, probably under less than ideal conditions) is almost a given. Like it is EASY to do with a PGO shotgun.

It really isn't easy. It's pretty challenging, especially when comparing with other common defensive weapons. Again, pointing back to our late friend Dave McCracken's work in this area, rates of effective accuracy DO go down -- for everyone -- when a PGO weapon is used. The lack of stock and thus, lack of achoring for aiming (and to a lesser extent, operating the slide), simply IS a negative factor.

So someone deciding to choose a PGO needs to have a realistic idea of just how much of a negative factor that is. Be aware of it and not trust that they will be "more than capable" with the gun simply because it's a scattergun.


Absolutely. But with the exception of the very rare and historically abandoned example of a Howdah pistol (which was operated more as a pistol than a PGO pump gun), they haven't been realizing much utility in scatterguns without stocks.

Do you normally carry a long gun of any kind with you? If you do, is it readily accessible, or is it cased and in the trunk?
Something like this can be carried much easier, meaning you are much more likely to have it accessible in an emergency. Stating that it isn't as effective in many ways, as a traditional stocked long gun is; 1. Obvious (thank you captain), and 2. not useful, because you are not going to have that full size shotgun or carbine with you..... (and if for some weird reason you do, I don't think anyone will attack you.) Rule 1. is "Have a gun." for a reason.

As to being able to get effective hits with a PGO, I have found it is far easier with a raptor/ birds head type grip like this, than with the vertical type pistol grip that is more common. There is a technique to firing these things; it takes a bit of practice, just like every other firearm, ever. Someone needs to show you how to do it correctly, and then it needs to be practiced..... same way we do with handguns.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason people haven't been using firearms like this much is that they have been legally restricted to the point of being unavailable to the average person for most of the last hundred years? And that other countries are even more restrictive?
Think that might have something to do with it?


Oh yeah, I almost forgot; earlier you mentioned it had a low capacity.... compared to what, exactly? How many civilian defensive gun uses can you cite where more than 4 rounds of buckshot were needed? Hell, how many needed more than one?

 

[1911 guy]

First, two salient points regarding my forthcoming statement.

One, I stink with shotguns. I tend to try to shoot them like rifles, which results in much brow furrowing and muttering on my part. Sometimes laughter on my companions part.

Two, I have used firearms against people while in the employ of our military. I have opinions based on my experiences that color my choices of firearms and other weapons for use against people. I want something that works.

A pistol grip only shotgun (or rifle, for that matter) is way down on my list of choices. Honestly, I'd take a pair of single action revolvers before I'd choose a PGO long arm. No, that's not hyperbole. I really would. In fact, I can think of several non-firearm weapons I would go to before i resorted to a PGO long arm. And yes, I've shot them. They suck for use against people. There. I said it. I'm not as polite as Sam1911.

Now if you want a cool range toy? Have at it. I hope shooting it makes you smile all day.
I keep hearing "But it's not useless." Fine. A couple years ago a Marine killed a would-be suicide bomber with a broken off MRE spoon. So your PGO shotgun is at least as useful as a broken MRE spoon. Yes, I am aware that I sometimes lack tact. No, discussing decisions that affect life and death circumstances is not the time for tact. It is time for honesty.

 

[freyasman]

First, two salient points regarding my forthcoming statement.

One, I stink with shotguns. I tend to try to shoot them like rifles, which results in much brow furrowing and muttering on my part. Sometimes laughter on my companions part.

Two, I have used firearms against people while in the employ of our military. I have opinions based on my experiences that color my choices of firearms and other weapons for use against people. I want something that works.

A pistol grip only shotgun (or rifle, for that matter) is way down on my list of choices. Honestly, I'd take a pair of single action revolvers before I'd choose a PGO long arm. No, that's not hyperbole. I really would. In fact, I can think of several non-firearm weapons I would go to before i resorted to a PGO long arm. And yes, I've shot them. They suck for use against people. There. I said it. I'm not as polite as Sam1911.

Now if you want a cool range toy? Have at it. I hope shooting it makes you smile all day.
I keep hearing "But it's not useless." Fine. A couple years ago a Marine killed a would-be suicide bomber with a broken off MRE spoon. So your PGO shotgun is at least as useful as a broken MRE spoon. Yes, I am aware that I sometimes lack tact. No, discussing decisions that affect life and death circumstances is not the time for tact. It is time for honesty.

In all honesty then, has anyone ever taught you how to properly use one of these, and educated you on when and in what circumstances they might be useful?

No, right?

 

[1911 guy]

Sorta chuckling here. I've probably burned more ammo in training than you've shot in your lifetime. And yes, I was trained in the use of a PGO shotgun. That's how I know definitively that they suck. Any common carbine or handgun is of far greater utility and ease of use than a PGO shotgun. Period. Full stop. Nothing more to explain.

If you like the look of it and want one, go buy one. I own a couple guns myself that serve zero practical purpose other than I like them and they're fun to shoot. But I'm not under any illusions that they are particularly useful.

 

[freyasman]

Sorta chuckling here. I've probably burned more ammo in training than you've shot in your lifetime. And yes, I was trained in the use of a PGO shotgun. That's how I know definitively that they suck. Any common carbine or handgun is of far greater utility and ease of use than a PGO shotgun. Period. Full stop. Nothing more to explain.

If you like the look of it and want one, go buy one. I own a couple guns myself that serve zero practical purpose other than I like them and they're fun to shoot. But I'm not under any illusions that they are particularly useful.

Really? You think so? I very much doubt that.
My first experience with these was when my dad cut a 12 gauge pump down when I was 13; illegal as hell, but he was the Chief of Police for the town we lived in so he wasn't too worried about getting prosecuted. He taught me the push-pull technique that allows you to get effective hits.
Later on, when I was in the service we had PGO Mossbergs and sometimes Remingtons that we used for breaching, and occasionally, someone would wonder if they were good for anything else. So we would try them out.... A bunch of NCOs with access to a shoothouse and quite a bit of real-world door-kicking experience are able to try out a lot of different techniques, and see whether something actually works.... at least to the extent that you can without actually killing folks.

All firearms are tools, and just because you're going to have more times when you use a screwdriver than an 18mm wrench, doesn't mean the wrench has no value, and isn't just the right tool for a particular task.




Or I can look around and see if I have an MRE spoon around here for you, smart guy.

 

[1911 guy]

You unknowingly hit the nail on the head. While not useless, the situations it might shine are so limited. So you should choose the tool with the most versatility. Otherwise, you're deliberately handicapping yourself in all but those few circumstances. Which, of course, we cannot predict.

The whole point of the thread referenced by Sam1911, the PGO challenge issued by the late Dave McCracken, was to show, and it does, that a PGO shotgun can by used with effect, but it will always fall behind other weapons in actual use.

 

[freyasman]

You unknowingly hit the nail on the head. While not useless, the situations it might shine are so limited. So you should choose the tool with the most versatility. Otherwise, you're deliberately handicapping yourself in all but those few circumstances. Which, of course, we cannot predict.

The whole point of the thread referenced by Sam1911, the PGO challenge issued by the late Dave McCracken, was to show, and it does, that a PGO shotgun can by used with effect, but it will always fall behind other weapons in actual use.

It will always do a better job than the guns you don't have with you, because they are too inconvenient to carry. People are constantly claiming that other things work better.... no kidding. (eyeroll)
You know what works even better than carbine or a stocked shotgun? An Infantry platoon... but I don't have one of those with me anymore.

 

[Girodin]

I have to agree that saying the the shockwave or the like is not a good gun and pointing out that they are not as useful a general purpose shotgun as a stocked shotgun and using that fact as the pillar of the argument is silly and kind of a no duh type statement (albeit one some folks do need to hear because they don’t actually know that) It’s like saying my spyderco dragon fly is junk because comparing it to my esee 6 and the way I use it the dragon fly isn’t good for that stuff. Or saying my LCP is not a good gun and comparing it to my Roland special G19 and it’s capabilities to make the point. I’d agree that the Roland is exponentially more capable and a better primary carry gun. I’d bet to man every person on this thread could shoot the Roland G19 notably better than the LCP. However, in its niche use the LCP is great. It even reminds me a bit of when people attack PDW class weapons and to make their argument point out that they lack the capabilities of an assault rifle. Again the word that comes to mind is “duh!” My dragon fly would be a crappy knife to take to the woods as my go to outdoors knife. My LCP doesn’t offer what my G19 does. However each shines in its appropriate role. Each has weaknesses that are necessary to allow it its strengths and to serve in the role that it does.
I don’t think a shockwave makes much sense unless you have a role that requires what it brings to the table. Many people may nothave use of that role. Some will buy and shockwave or the like anyways. Some will poo poo the gun without understanding where it might be useful and critically examining that role.
I would also agree with Sam though that many people trumpeting the shockwave as a great HD or vehicle defense tool might benefit from having their ideas respectfully challenged. I also have found that many such people have not done much of anything to know the abilities and weaknesses of the weapon let alone how that compares to other weapons.
Know your equipment know how to use it. Know it’s stregnths. Understand it’s trafeoffs and limitations.

One last thought is that I don’t think my SBS with a raptor head stock (which I like better overall with a stock for what it’s worth) is very comparable to an 18.5” barreled gun with any grip but particularly a more vertical style pistol grip. (Again I don’t own a tac 14 or shockwave so I can’t say but I would think they’d be similar enough) I’d say it’s about like treating the LCP like a beretta 84 chettah and using the term backup .380s to lump them in the same category. Many of the comparisons and conclusions vis-a-vis other guns would still be true but understanding the LCPs virtues would be lost if you thought it was like the 84.

 

[Girodin]

You unknowingly hit the nail on the head. While not useless, the situations it might shine are so limited. So you should choose the tool with the most versatility. Otherwise, you're deliberately handicapping yourself in all but those few circumstances. Which, of course, we cannot predict.

The whole point of the thread referenced by Sam1911, the PGO challenge issued by the late Dave McCracken, was to show, and it does, that a PGO shotgun can by used with effect, but it will always fall behind other weapons in actual use.

The unspoken assumption here is that one could only have the most versatile weapon. IAnd if they have the more limited use weapon they would necessarily be only relying on it when another weapon was more useful. That’s of course not necessarily the case. I have multiple $1000+ defensive shotguns and a handful more less expensive ones. I can chose them when they seem like the best tool and chose the SBS when it does.
Just like owning or using an LCP in its role doesn’t preclude me from using my G17 when it is the better choice. When G17 G19 are not the best choice it’s sure nice to have a G43 or LCP. Assuming that because I one and recognize that those little guns are a good choice for somethings doesn’t mean I’m going to carry it everyday to the exclusion of the more capable gun.
The argument also seems to fail to grasp that the most versatile weapon may not be the Best weapon for a given role. Again see the comparison of the Roland G19 and the LCP.

 

[freyasman]

We keep on discussing the performance of tools, and while that is a worthwhile point of discussion, it ignores an important aspect..... location and circumstances of the problem that we are using the tools to fix. We all, myself included, talk about the "right tool for the job" but I think some folks are forgetting that when you have a self-defense problem, you have to deal with it right then and there, on the spot. It's not like when your truck starts sounding funny and you can make it home and get to the tool chest in the garage, or even have it towed to a mechanic. You can't take a self-defense problem to where the tools are, and these problems seldom manifest at the ideal place and time for the defender. The only tool you can bring to bear in a self-defense situation is the one you have with you, readily accessible. If you have the time to go home and access the gun safe, or even dig a long gun case out of the back of your vehicle and load and make ready a long gun, then it doesn't seem like much of an emergency to me. You could probably just leave.... drive away.
The niche in which these little guns shine, is one where carrying a full size long gun is problematic, but where you would want more than just a handgun..... which is just about every gun fight ever. There are only going to be a couple or 3 situations where you would have it, such as back-country hiking, or the aforementioned cross-country motorcycle trip, etc. But the fact that you can have it with you, is it's single greatest feature..... well, that and buckshot, of course. Because while I have met many people who have survived getting shot with pistol rounds, I only ever met one guy who took a load of buckshot at close range and lived.... and he was immediately downed and out of the fight and woke up in an ICU about 5 days later, missing and eye and a chunk of his skull.
Pistols suck at everything except carry; everything a pistol can do, can be done better with a long gun..... but it's almost impossible to keep a long gun handy. Every little tool on my Leatherman has a corresponding bigger and better version in my tool box, but the Leatherman is what I use most.... because I can carry it around with me.

 

[Sam1911]

Would a red dot be quicker?

Red dots are what I meant to say by "optics." They are indeed very fast, and can be faster than irons if you're used to shooting with them.

 

[Sam1911]

So is a Ruger LCP useless due to its size compared to a full size or 1911 or Glock 17/21?

No. Everything is in degrees. A Ruger LCP is not as easy to get good hits with as a full-sized pistol, but it's still operated the same way with the same aiming form.

It's marginally less practically effective than a full-sized pistol however its compact nature is quite literally a crucial trade-off for those folks who can't carry a more "shootable" gun in some situations. It's size is a benefit so worthwhile that one might have NO gun if one didn't accept this trade-off, and the hit one takes to shooting effectiveness is small enough to be a good exchange.

A PGO shotgun is not marginally less effective in the hands of a defending shooter. It is seriously less effective. This has been tested extensively. A conscious decision to choose to defend yourself with one, then, needs to have some VERY important trade-off value that's more important than speed and accuracy.

Some have said the ease of storing one for transport is such a worthy trade-off. Ok, but I'd simply choose an effective handgun instead because I can put a lot of hits on target with one far more surely that I can hit with a PGO. That's an evaluation you must make for yourself. But do so with DATA, not assumptions about how you can perform.

Is a 3" pocket knife useless compared to a machete?

Well, that truly depends on what you're doing with it. Either one might be "useless" for some tasks.

Are AR pistols and AK pistols useless compared to Carbines?

That depends on whether you've got a "brace" style stock on it so you can shoulder it or not. Having run many (unstocked) rifle-pistols against timers I can say they really aren't something one should choose to take to a gun fight. They're slow to get on target, unwieldy, and abandon the natural aiming traits of either a handgun or a rifle. A standard handgun is an almost infinitely better choice in any normal "self defense" setting. A 30 round mag of 5.56 does not trump 9 rounds of .45ACP, when the pistol can be drawn and put aimed hits on target in a second or so, and aimed follow up shots are coming at a rate of 5 per second. An AR-15 shot as a handgun just doesn't work like that. Can make a fun groundhog plinker though.

If you haven't run trials between these different kinds of guns these concepts are hard to grasp in scope. If you do, the differences become pretty stark.

 

[freyasman]

Red dots are what I meant to say by "optics." They are indeed very fast, and can be faster than irons if you're used to shooting with them.

I've not used them much, but don't they require a certain amount of training and practice to use effectively?

 

[Sam1911]

The niche in which these little guns shine, is one where carrying a full size long gun is problematic, but where you would want more than just a handgun..... which is just about every gun fight ever.

Yes, but wanting "more than just a handgun" and wanting a PGO shotgun are not the same thing. Having rather thoroughly wrung out PGO shotguns myself, and done a lot of pistol and other defensive type shooting, I'd never choose one over a handgun, ever.

But the fact that you can have it with you, is it's single greatest feature..... well, that and buckshot, of course.

But you can have a good handgun in even more places, and a good handgun in the hands of a good shooter is -- IMHO -- a far, FAR, more effective weapon. Even though you don't have the overwhelming power of a load of buck with each shot.

 

[Sam1911]

Do you normally carry a long gun of any kind with you? If you do, is it readily accessible, or is it cased and in the trunk?

No, I do not. Period.

Something like this can be carried much easier, meaning you are much more likely to have it accessible in an emergency. Stating that it isn't as effective in many ways, as a traditional stocked long gun is; 1. Obvious (thank you captain), and 2. not useful, because you are not going to have that full size shotgun or carbine with you..... (and if for some weird reason you do, I don't think anyone will attack you.) Rule 1. is "Have a gun." for a reason.

My point with that line of discussion is to say, "If you think you should have a shotgun, HAVE a shotgun." It isn't really that hard. Even if you had to break down your pump gun to put it in the motorcycle roll for that long trip, that's better than choosing a PGO.

Some folks have said "it's a hell of a home defense gun" or some such wording. If you're at home, you have access to whatever you choose to keep handy for defense. A PGO (now by your own acknowledgment #1 above) would NOT be the home defense weapon of choice.

A good handgun is more of a weapon than a PGO shotgun in every way that matters. (Hits on target.) Presupposing that you'll get hits with that PGO, under life-or-death conditions is a bad bet.

As to being able to get effective hits with a PGO, I have found it is far easier with a raptor/ birds head type grip like this, than with the vertical type pistol grip that is more common. There is a technique to firing these things; it takes a bit of practice, just like every other firearm, ever. Someone needs to show you how to do it correctly, and then it needs to be practiced..... same way we do with handguns.

If you've put in the range time, in scenario shooting/training, against a timer with some sort of realistic pressure and actually accounting for hits and time -- then you've done your due diligence and may be as confident as you need to be to decide to trust your life to your abilities with such a firearm.

As I've said over and over: Do not assume. Even with a lot of practice, PGOs are hard to use well compared to any of the other weapons you could have.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason people haven't been using firearms like this much is that they have been legally restricted to the point of being unavailable to the average person for most of the last hundred years? And that other countries are even more restrictive?
Think that might have something to do with it?

No. Because they haven't been. PGO pump guns exactly like this (plus a couple of inches of length ... the Mossberg 500 Cruiser in 6 shot format is 27" long. The Shockwave is 26") have been available for decades. They are a very common commodity, well wrung-out by those who care to investigate their use.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot; earlier you mentioned it had a low capacity.... compared to what, exactly? How many civilian defensive gun uses can you cite where more than 4 rounds of buckshot were needed? Hell, how many needed more than one?

Presupposes hits. Presupposes good, solid hits. Plenty of defensive shooters have not made good hits when it counted. Plenty of PGO shooters miss a LOT, even under calm range conditions.

 

[Sam1911]

It will always do a better job than the guns you don't have with you, because they are too inconvenient to carry. People are constantly claiming that other things work better.... no kidding. (eyeroll)
You know what works even better than carbine or a stocked shotgun? An Infantry platoon... but I don't have one of those with me anymore.

Right.

And I think at this point we can boil this down to the crux of one basic point of disagreement:

You feel that having a load of buckshot as the first (and maybe only) shot is the most compelling factor to consider. I believe that a magazine full of .45, .40, 9mm, etc., in a weapon that is vastly easier to hit with, faster, more maneuverable, much easier to hit with again and again rapidly, and which you can have with you practically always trumps that load of buckshot.

If that's really the single point of disagreement then we're probably really at that "agree to disagree" point. Because this is a matter of faith. We really can't test out effectiveness-of-buckshot-if-you-can-make-hit vs. effectiveness-of-handgun-slug-you're-more-likely-to-hit-with. There's no logical or mathematical formula that can tell us where the "yes/no" point is.

If that's it -- call it "faith in payload" vs. "faith in shooting performance" -- then we've accomplished the goal of a discussion like this. Readers can decide which way they lean in that faith question and hopefully know how to inform their choices.

 

[Sam1911]

I've not used them much, but don't they [red dot optics] require a certain amount of training and practice to use effectively?

Not really. In fact, they're very intuitive. The most training needed is usually for us older guys in "unlearning" habits we already have.

Keep both eyes open. Look at the target. See dot, press trigger. They can be blisteringly fast with a little familiarity.

 

[freyasman]

Yes, but wanting "more than just a handgun" and wanting a PGO shotgun are not the same thing. Having rather thoroughly wrung out PGO shotguns myself, and done a lot of pistol and other defensive type shooting, I'd never choose one over a handgun, ever.


But you can have a good handgun in even more places, and a good handgun in the hands of a good shooter is -- IMHO -- a far, FAR, more effective weapon. Even though you don't have the overwhelming power of a load of buck with each shot.

And like I said earlier, it's "in addition to", not "instead of"; there are only a few places where you can take this with you and have it readily accessible.... and every one of those places is somewhere you can also have your handgun. But I've been in a bunch of firefights and the one thing I always wanted, in every one of them, was "more"; more firepower, more ammo, a bigger caliber, more guys with me, more close air support, more indirect fire..... just "more" of everything. When I roll jiu-jitsu or play Judo, I always want "more" too.... I want more strength, more technique, more endurance, more time on the mat to practice. Even when I had "enough", (which I guess was every time, because I'm still here), I always wanted "more".
Having a little stubby 12 or 20 gauge full of buckshot is "more". Nobody ever died from having "more", but quite a few folks have from not having "enough".

 

[freyasman]

Right.

And I think at this point we can boil this down to the crux of one basic point of disagreement:

You feel that having a load of buckshot as the first (and maybe only) shot is the most compelling factor to consider. I believe that a magazine full of .45, .40, 9mm, etc., in a weapon that is vastly easier to hit with, faster, more maneuverable, much easier to hit with again and again rapidly, and which you can have with you practically always trumps that load of buckshot.

If that's really the single point of disagreement then we're probably really at that "agree to disagree" point. Because this is a matter of faith. We really can't test out effectiveness-of-buckshot-if-you-can-make-hit vs. effectiveness-of-handgun-slug-you're-more-likely-to-hit-with. There's no logical or mathematical formula that can tell us where the "yes/no" point is.

If that's it -- call it "faith in payload" vs. "faith in shooting performance" -- then we've accomplished the goal of a discussion like this. Readers can decide which way they lean in that faith question and hopefully know how to inform their choices.

Agreed.

 

[freyasman]

Not really. In fact, they're very intuitive. The most training needed is usually for us older guys in "unlearning" habits we already have.

Keep both eyes open. Look at the target. See dot, press trigger. They can be blisteringly fast with a little familiarity.

I've seen some instructors starting to use red dots on handguns, (Suarez and his guys mostly) but I lean away from things like that because I keep my carry guns very basic nowadays. The one you carry is the one that gets the most abuse from wear and weather as well as practice (or should anyway), and it's also the one you will most likely never see again if you have to use it. I don't want to invest several hundred to maybe over a thousand dollars in equipment for something that will get taken as evidence. I'd rather spend that money on ammo and training with my almost stock Glock that I got for around $500..

 

[freyasman]

First, two salient points regarding my forthcoming statement.

One, I stink with shotguns. I tend to try to shoot them like rifles, which results in much brow furrowing and muttering on my part. Sometimes laughter on my companions part.

Two, I have used firearms against people while in the employ of our military. I have opinions based on my experiences that color my choices of firearms and other weapons for use against people. I want something that works.

A pistol grip only shotgun (or rifle, for that matter) is way down on my list of choices. Honestly, I'd take a pair of single action revolvers before I'd choose a PGO long arm. No, that's not hyperbole. I really would. In fact, I can think of several non-firearm weapons I would go to before i resorted to a PGO long arm. And yes, I've shot them. They suck for use against people. There. I said it. I'm not as polite as Sam1911.

Now if you want a cool range toy? Have at it. I hope shooting it makes you smile all day.
I keep hearing "But it's not useless." Fine. A couple years ago a Marine killed a would-be suicide bomber with a broken off MRE spoon. So your PGO shotgun is at least as useful as a broken MRE spoon. Yes, I am aware that I sometimes lack tact. No, discussing decisions that affect life and death circumstances is not the time for tact. It is time for honesty.

BTW, I actually got in trouble in Iraq in 2004 for giving some joes a class on how to kill someone with an MRE spoon. I taped one to the brushguard on the front of a HUMVEE and drove straight at a bunch of traders near the wire by the MSR; (we were always trying to keep them away from the wire but they would come up and try and sell stuff to the convoys, drugs, booze, etc.). They scattered like roaches when the lights come on, lol. Some of them ended up jumping into the concertina wire.
Commander chewed me out pretty good for that one, but the 1SG knew me well enough by then to not even bother. I think he was just glad no one died.

 

[Girodin]

No. Everything is in degrees. A Ruger LCP is not as easy to get good hits with as a full-sized pistol, but it's still operated the same way with the same aiming form.

It's marginally less practically effective than a full-sized pistol however its compact nature is quite literally a crucial trade-off for those folks who can't carry a more "shootable" gun in some situations. It's size is a benefit so worthwhile that one might have NO gun if one didn't accept this trade-off, and the hit one takes to shooting effectiveness is small enough to be a good exchange.

I would very strongly disagree that an LCP is only "marginally" less effective than a roland special G19. I suppose it is distinctly possible that I just really suck at shooting an LCP and that any other decent shooter would be much more effective and find the difference small. I suspect that is not the case however. What I have observed of others shooting that gun and even less capable duty size guns also suggests its probably not the case. I think minimizing the difference in capabilities between those two guns is laughable to be frank. Even between a regular old G17 and an LCP I find there to be a chasmic gulf in capability.

A PGO shotgun is not marginally less effective in the hands of a defending shooter. It is seriously less effective. This has been tested extensively.

If we are talking shooting at across the room distances 3-10 yards I don't find that to be the case. I actually think the comparison of an LCP to a G19 is pretty apt. This assumes a few things however. A) the gun being set up in a certain configuration. Again not all PGO guns are the same. Using the cruiser 500 and the shockwave for example are IMHO completely different experiences. If one is talking about one and extrapolating to the other I think he/she is not making sound conclusions. The raptor head grip and shorter barrel were notable differences to me and changed my view of things. B) having a decent understanding of how to shoot one. Like all shooting technique makes a difference C) having the physical prowess to control the gun. Shotguns are not an egalitarian weapon and I think the shockwave style guns are even less so. I can only speak to my own ability and my own experiences shooting, My own performance on a shot timer. Again I can game selecting the drills to get certain results in support of certain hypothesis, but in my own honest quest for knowledge I don't find it to be the unusable beast in the tasks its suited for that you seem to. Again I don't think its a great HD gun, or as good or better than lots of other choices. As you said capability is a matter of degrees and I personally believe the degree to be different than what you do (at least with respect to the shockwave style guns).

The question then, just as with a pocket gun vs a duty size gun, is the smaller size of the shockwave type gun necessary. Its its not and one can have the larger more capable weapon than of course its a poor choice. The next question is if one cannot have the larger weapon but one can have something the size of the shockwave is the shockwave a good choice or the right choice for that person. This is tougher and we can start debating SBRs, braced pistols, handguns etc. Things become a set of trade offs. As you very astutely noted the question is then becomes one of what abilities one prioritizes, how one will implement the gun (keeping my SBS on my lap or in my hands at all times is much easier than my 10.5" AR SBR, or any of my other defensive shotguns), and how capable one is with each weapon. If one hasn't put the time in to objectively measure their own performance that is a tough question to answer in any meaningful way.

I do think we have drilled down to the center of the discussion. You phrased it:

You feel that having a load of buckshot as the first (and maybe only) shot is the most compelling factor to consider. I believe that a magazine full of .45, .40, 9mm, etc., in a weapon that is vastly easier to hit with, faster, more maneuverable, much easier to hit with again and again rapidly, and which you can have with you practically always trumps that load of buckshot.

While I think that your verbiage is a bit loaded and a better way to phrase it is, whether one believes having the shockwave style gun with 6 rounds of buckshot (my SBS is only 5) is better than a handgun with X number of Y cartridge acknowledging the differences in capabilities of each. I believe this is answered again by knowing what one's own capabilities with each gun actually are (Again if one isn't realistically and objectively measuring that then they don't have meaningful answer to the question) and how much emphasis one places on the terminal effect of a load of buckshot. Of course that presupposes a hit just as we are presupposing a hit with a pistol, SBR, or whatever else we might use. The terminal effect of a shotgun is notable. To use your own figures and frankly I believe you are a notably better shooter than the average person:

trump 9 rounds of .45ACP, when the pistol can be drawn and put aimed hits on target in a second or so, and aimed follow up shots are coming at a rate of 5 per second.

My own shooting suggest that shooting my SBS with the raptor grip from a low ready the time difference for a first round hit between that and drawing my pistol from OWB is negligible. Real world OODA issues and reaction times are much more notable IMHO. However the difference between a single 124 gr +P gold dot and a 9 00 pellets or my preffered 16 #4 pellets is certainly not negligible. Assuming a split time of a full second to fire a second shot from the shotgun that means we are sending not 5 projectiles per second like with that .45 but 9-16 per second. 32 #4 buck or 6 .45 ACPs? If we go to second 3 we may have to account for a reload in many .45s. If we are talking about an 8+1 1911 we now three seconds in have at best 9 45s or 48 #4 buck a pretty significant difference. Again we are presupposing hits in both instances (which includes presupposing a smooth draw, presentation, etc with each) and as noted there is no magical way to know if someone will really score the hits. Going out and regularly training/measuring performance will give one a good idea about probabilities however.

I don't think one wanting his shockwave on his lap whilst sitting on the sofa of a questionable motel is some inane idea. It is not, in my mind at least, obvious that anyone that thought having that gun for an across the room shot(s) at a BG instead of a handgun is somehow an idiot so far off in left field as to be laughable.

I personally am not going to choose my SBS in raptor head grip configuration for many things other than fun and shooting with it to inform my self about that style of weapon. I have highly capable handguns like the roland, at least 5 other defensive shotguns, about a dozen SBRs of various flavors, more than a couple of carbines, and a few so called "battle rifles" to chose from. For most questions one of them is a better answer. I really wouldn't advocate a shockwave/tac 14/ et al to anyone as a primary defensive weapon. I personally don't find it to be a good choice for many of the things people on this forum have suggested they intend to use theirs for. I would, however, based on my own shooting and view of things chose it for across the room distance engagements over my single shot revolvers or certain handguns that would fall within the set of "any handgun" such as my LCP, an NAA revolver, jiminez 22 LR, etc.

In sum, I agree with the basic premise asserted by Sam as to how to answer if such a gun makes sense for a given use. I believe the extremes of claiming a shockwave et al as either a great/utlimate HD gun, car gun, defensive weapon and alternatively claiming it as worthless, unusable and terribly choice for any possible scenario are each wrong headed and based on A) not understanding the guns in question and how to use them B) not having really put in the time to shake them out. I wouldn't think someone was wrong who thought a shockwave was not the best answer to any realistic use they might have. I actually would agree. I think it is a really niche weapon and its niche is not something most people really need to fill.

 

[Girodin]

I've seen some instructors starting to use red dots on handguns, (Suarez and his guys mostly)

To hear Suarez tell it he is the one who invented the idea. Having been aware of him at least since back when he was telling everyone they only needed a cheap AK I find the things he is willing to take credit for to be amusing. The RDS on defensive pistols is something he has put a lot of time into and honestly has good insight and knowledge about but it is not his baby. Suarez is an interesting character. He has good knowledge and at least in person seems like much less of a unlikable guy than his online persona. Everything from him has to be taken with a grain of salt though particularly when it comes to gear. He is the ultimate shill IMHO. Having watched him bounce from pushing one latest and greatest idea on his followers after another (and of course all things he is selling) its become pretty plain. IF that doesn't do it watching the way he trumpets one product and rapidly attacks anything else and any dissenting view certainly should. Or even more telling watching him drop support for something he previously raved about. Remember when US palm mags were the best thing since sliced bread according to him? The other common theme is he has been late to the party on many of them and then unabashedly claimed credit for the idea. RDS pistols are only one example of that. People of course can grown learn and get new opinions but watching him "evolve" over the years is interesting. Also his seeming insecurity and need for an echo chamber for his own ideas is a bit amusing.

 

[freyasman]

I would very strongly disagree that an LCP is only "marginally" less effective than a roland special G19. I suppose it is distinctly possible that I just really suck at shooting an LCP and that any other decent shooter would be much more effective and find the difference small. I suspect that is not the case however. What I have observed of others shooting that gun and even less capable duty size guns also suggests its probably not the case. I think minimizing the difference in capabilities between those two guns is laughable to be frank. Even between a regular old G17 and an LCP I find there to be a chasmic gulf in capability.



If we are talking shooting at across the room distances 3-10 yards I don't find that to be the case. I actually think the comparison of an LCP to a G19 is pretty apt. This assumes a few things however. A) the gun being set up in a certain configuration. Again not all PGO guns are the same. Using the cruiser 500 and the shockwave for example are IMHO completely different experiences. If one is talking about one and extrapolating to the other I think he/she is not making sound conclusions. The raptor head grip and shorter barrel were notable differences to me and changed my view of things. B) having a decent understanding of how to shoot one. Like all shooting technique makes a difference C) having the physical prowess to control the gun. Shotguns are not an egalitarian weapon and I think the shockwave style guns are even less so. I can only speak to my own ability and my own experiences shooting, My own performance on a shot timer. Again I can game selecting the drills to get certain results in support of certain hypothesis, but in my own honest quest for knowledge I don't find it to be the unusable beast in the tasks its suited for that you seem to. Again I don't think its a great HD gun, or as good or better than lots of other choices. As you said capability is a matter of degrees and I personally believe the degree to be different than what you do (at least with respect to the shockwave style guns).

The question then, just as with a pocket gun vs a duty size gun, is the smaller size of the shockwave type gun necessary. Its its not and one can have the larger more capable weapon than of course its a poor choice. The next question is if one cannot have the larger weapon but one can have something the size of the shockwave is the shockwave a good choice or the right choice for that person. This is tougher and we can start debating SBRs, braced pistols, handguns etc. Things become a set of trade offs. As you very astutely noted the question is then becomes one of what abilities one prioritizes, how one will implement the gun (keeping my SBS on my lap or in my hands at all times is much easier than my 10.5" AR SBR, or any of my other defensive shotguns), and how capable one is with each weapon. If one hasn't put the time in to objectively measure their own performance that is a tough question to answer in any meaningful way.

I do think we have drilled down to the center of the discussion. You phrased it:


While I think that your verbiage is a bit loaded and a better way to phrase it is, whether one believes having the shockwave style gun with 6 rounds of buckshot (my SBS is only 5) is better than a handgun with X number of Y cartridge acknowledging the differences in capabilities of each. I believe this is answered again by knowing what one's own capabilities with each gun actually are (Again if one isn't realistically and objectively measuring that then they don't have meaningful answer to the question) and how much emphasis one places on the terminal effect of a load of buckshot. Of course that presupposes a hit just as we are presupposing a hit with a pistol, SBR, or whatever else we might use. The terminal effect of a shotgun is notable. To use your own figures and frankly I believe you are a notably better shooter than the average person:



My own shooting suggest that shooting my SBS with the raptor grip from a low ready the time difference for a first round hit between that and drawing my pistol from OWB is negligible. Real world OODA issues and reaction times are much more notable IMHO. However the difference between a single 124 gr +P gold dot and a 9 00 pellets or my preffered 16 #4 pellets is certainly not negligible. Assuming a split time of a full second to fire a second shot from the shotgun that means we are sending not 5 projectiles per second like with that .45 but 9-16 per second. 32 #4 buck or 6 .45 ACPs? If we go to second 3 we may have to account for a reload in many .45s. If we are talking about an 8+1 1911 we now three seconds in have at best 9 45s or 48 #4 buck a pretty significant difference. Again we are presupposing hits in both instances (which includes presupposing a smooth draw, presentation, etc with each) and as noted there is no magical way to know if someone will really score the hits. Going out and regularly training/measuring performance will give one a good idea about probabilities however.

I don't think one wanting his shockwave on his lap whilst sitting on the sofa of a questionable motel is some inane idea. It is not, in my mind at least, obvious that anyone that thought having that gun for an across the room shot(s) at a BG instead of a handgun is somehow an idiot so far off in left field as to be laughable.

I personally am not going to choose my SBS in raptor head grip configuration for many things other than fun and shooting with it to inform my self about that style of weapon. I have highly capable handguns like the roland, at least 5 other defensive shotguns, about a dozen SBRs of various flavors, more than a couple of carbines, and a few so called "battle rifles" to chose from. For most questions one of them is a better answer. I really wouldn't advocate a shockwave/tac 14/ et al to anyone as a primary defensive weapon. I personally don't find it to be a good choice for many of the things people on this forum have suggested they intend to use theirs for. I would, however, based on my own shooting and view of things chose it for across the room distance engagements over my single shot revolvers or certain handguns that would fall within the set of "any handgun" such as my LCP, an NAA revolver, jiminez 22 LR, etc.

In sum, I agree with the basic premise asserted by Sam as to how to answer if such a gun makes sense for a given use. I believe the extremes of claiming a shockwave et al as either a great/utlimate HD gun, car gun, defensive weapon and alternatively claiming it as worthless, unusable and terribly choice for any possible scenario are each wrong headed and based on A) not understanding the guns in question and how to use them B) not having really put in the time to shake them out. I wouldn't think someone was wrong who thought a shockwave was not the best answer to any realistic use they might have. I actually would agree. I think it is a really niche weapon and its niche is not something most people really need to fill.

Good post. I especially agree with you about the difference between firing with the 2 different styles of grips. That is something I found to make the most difference in performance with these guns.
I am also in agreement with you regarding the downrange performance of different rounds. Getting that first round onto the target is hugely important with any type of weapon, but I have seen with my own eyes, people take center mass hits from rifles no less, and have no visible reaction. There are also many many videos of shootings available on the 'net where you can see the exact same thing with handgun rounds. They may be dead from blood loss 3-5 minutes later, but at the time they were shot, no visible reaction. You don't see that very often with buckshot. People say that they can get faster follow-up shots with a handgun... well if your first shot had no effect, and that person kept shooting at you/rushing at you/ whatever, can you still get those effective hits with your next 3-5 rounds after you have taken 2 or 3 9mm rounds? Or after you have been bowled over and now he's on top of you stabbing you? How do things like that affect a person's split times?