I started reading his blog a few months ago and while he has some pretty interesting content sometimes, I never forget he is always trying to sell something. It says right there on the website; "warrior capitalist", lol. At least he's not trying to hide it, I guess.
Mossberg Shockwave
- Thread starter hot chili powder
- Start date
- Status
Sistema1927
Member
Putting aside the utility of such a weapon, I think that an M249 SAW spare barrel bag will do the trick to transport it.
farm23
Member
I am late here and have not read 6 pages. I have many shotguns and SxS are my favorite. I do not anticipate ever owning a Shockwave but many must if Mossberg is expanding the line to include a 20ga. I always carry and often it is a 45 SA so that is what I would have available. Many years ago I visited a friend in the hospital in Georgia. He was a state trooper and recovering from a 12ga load of #6 delivered from less than 10 feet. The escaped convict did not recover from the return fire [saved the taxpayer a lot of money]. The Shockwave would be way down on my list of firearms for protection but that is just me.
Sistema1927
Member
Another testimony to the fact that birdshot doesn't penetrate. Good job that the felon wasn't carrying any size of buckshot. Not to be too gruesome, but what part(s) of his body were hit? I am guessing that he was wearing a vest.
farm23
Member
It was a hot summer evening in the 50's so just a duty short sleeve shirt and the escaped convict stole the shotgun and shells. The range was very short and the pattern mostly to the chest. I am not saying a shotgun won't kill just that the return fire from the trooper's service revolver did kill and in spite of being shot he could still return fire.
Sistema1927
Member
Took the Shockwave to the range today, and learned some interesting things:
1) The Laserlight CM-MK4 isn't visible past about 5 yards in direct sunlight.
2) Was able to use the laser with some cloud cover out to about 10 yards, and the size of circle approximates the shot pattern using buckshot.
3) Old (1st generation, black case, low brass) Aguila mini shell buckshot loads have either hard or defective primers, many of them took two strikes to fire. Current production (high(er) brass, red case) Aguila mini shell buckshot loads are OK.
4) Aguila mini shells feed 100% using an Opsol adapter. Also, I shot one tube full without the adapter (forgot to reinsert it), and had no problems either.
5) Hip shooting with the laser was easy. Hip shooting without the laser was also not difficult, and rounds went where I wanted them to go. I also shot some at 15 yards, beyond the daylight range of the laser, and I would say that I was about 75% on target. All of this was from the hip.
6) Recoil with mini-shells was negligible. Recoil with Herter's 2.25" 00 buckshot loads was not much greater. Recoil with S&B 2.75" 00 buckshot was manageable. All shooting was done from the hip, but I think that I could go the Clint Smith way with any of these loads without any problem. Next range trip I will try this out.
7) All of this was fun.
Conclusions?
Too early to tell if this would be a viable home defense gun for things that go bump in the night, but results were promising. If I did use it this way it would be 5 Herter's 2.25" 00 buckshot loads in the tube with an additional 6 in the side saddle. Yes, this is not as much as the 8 in the tube, 12 in the side saddle for the Aguila mini shells, but the recoil difference is minimal and having 8 pellets of 00 at 1250 beats 7 x #4 & 4 x #1 at 1200 (Advertised velocities, probably less from a 14" barrel).
Even though hip shooting without benefit of laser was promising, I can't see this filling a car gun role, except possibly in very limited circumstances. Either a handgun or an AR (rifle or pistol) would work better for anything that I could foresee.
1) The Laserlight CM-MK4 isn't visible past about 5 yards in direct sunlight.
2) Was able to use the laser with some cloud cover out to about 10 yards, and the size of circle approximates the shot pattern using buckshot.
3) Old (1st generation, black case, low brass) Aguila mini shell buckshot loads have either hard or defective primers, many of them took two strikes to fire. Current production (high(er) brass, red case) Aguila mini shell buckshot loads are OK.
4) Aguila mini shells feed 100% using an Opsol adapter. Also, I shot one tube full without the adapter (forgot to reinsert it), and had no problems either.
5) Hip shooting with the laser was easy. Hip shooting without the laser was also not difficult, and rounds went where I wanted them to go. I also shot some at 15 yards, beyond the daylight range of the laser, and I would say that I was about 75% on target. All of this was from the hip.
6) Recoil with mini-shells was negligible. Recoil with Herter's 2.25" 00 buckshot loads was not much greater. Recoil with S&B 2.75" 00 buckshot was manageable. All shooting was done from the hip, but I think that I could go the Clint Smith way with any of these loads without any problem. Next range trip I will try this out.
7) All of this was fun.
Conclusions?
Too early to tell if this would be a viable home defense gun for things that go bump in the night, but results were promising. If I did use it this way it would be 5 Herter's 2.25" 00 buckshot loads in the tube with an additional 6 in the side saddle. Yes, this is not as much as the 8 in the tube, 12 in the side saddle for the Aguila mini shells, but the recoil difference is minimal and having 8 pellets of 00 at 1250 beats 7 x #4 & 4 x #1 at 1200 (Advertised velocities, probably less from a 14" barrel).
Even though hip shooting without benefit of laser was promising, I can't see this filling a car gun role, except possibly in very limited circumstances. Either a handgun or an AR (rifle or pistol) would work better for anything that I could foresee.
justice06rr
Member
As a matter of fact, I've owned all the weapons I mentioned and practice with them. I've owned a Draco 12" AK pistol, M92 AK pistol, a few AR pistols (10" and 7.5"), and also used pistol grip shotguns in the past. LCP, G26/27/19 and 1911's. It would surprise you that I can hit soda cans at 40-50yards easily with both AK and AR pistols. Subcompact guns like the LCP are harder to be accurate, but in HD distances of 7-10 yards will do its job.
(I've also done IDPA and 3Gun events many times btw)
While a longer/full size/stocked weapon is more efficient, plenty practice with a firearm is important if you choose a smaller weapon.
I think our disconnect here is that proper technique and practice is important for any weapon. I don't condone hip shooting of shotguns and rifles (even less with pistols), and I do not use those methods at all. But if you aim and shoot them properly and with both hands, an AK/AR pistol, pistol-grip shotgun, and subcompact handgun is still usable within reasonable parameters.
Not trying to argue with you here. Just stating that such smaller versions of firearms can be used effectively with the proper technique and practice.
It wouldn’t surprise me you could hit things at 50 yards with the Draco it would surprise me if you could shoot various drills with any kind of speed. I have had a number of pistol versions of rifles as the patiently waited to become more useful SBRs. I do view something like a Draco as pretty compromised in non braced pistol format. Shoot a 1-5 drill or something at 25 yards with a Draco and then do the same with a the SBR version the difference is significant.
I wouldn’t use such a gun for any defensive role. Given the advent of the pistol brace there wouldn’t be any reason to even if one didn’t have an SBR.
If I were to choose between non braced pistol version of a Draco and a duty sized pistol I’d pick the later as a defensive weapon every time.
AR pistols are a bit different. Again no reason now not to use a brace and I have an SBR, but barring that a cheek weld on a buffer tube makes it more useable than the AK pistol in my experience.
As to the conclusion they can be used effectively we need to define what constitutes effectiveness. Hit a reasonable size target on a static range with no time constraints and no consideration for split times. I have no doubt. I’ve done it. That’s not what I’d deem to be the measure of effectiveness.
It actually amazes me how many people have no objective criteria to define effectiveness of a defensive weapon. Many other people use what in my opinion are bad standards to determine if their choice in weapon is suitable. I suggest having a handful of drills that account for basics weapon manipulation and shooting skills and test those on a timer and accounting for accuracy. I account for accuracy with very hefty time penalties for shots outside the A zone and straight fails for any shot of target. If you do that you don’t have to have internet debates you know what you can do with a particular gun in your hands. That beats internet chatter 10/10 times. It also prevents talking past other people with vague terms that mean totally different things to different people. There is no misunderstanding to I shot a 4.3 second Bill drill or 14.2 second compass drill, etc etc.
I wouldn’t use such a gun for any defensive role. Given the advent of the pistol brace there wouldn’t be any reason to even if one didn’t have an SBR.
If I were to choose between non braced pistol version of a Draco and a duty sized pistol I’d pick the later as a defensive weapon every time.
AR pistols are a bit different. Again no reason now not to use a brace and I have an SBR, but barring that a cheek weld on a buffer tube makes it more useable than the AK pistol in my experience.
As to the conclusion they can be used effectively we need to define what constitutes effectiveness. Hit a reasonable size target on a static range with no time constraints and no consideration for split times. I have no doubt. I’ve done it. That’s not what I’d deem to be the measure of effectiveness.
It actually amazes me how many people have no objective criteria to define effectiveness of a defensive weapon. Many other people use what in my opinion are bad standards to determine if their choice in weapon is suitable. I suggest having a handful of drills that account for basics weapon manipulation and shooting skills and test those on a timer and accounting for accuracy. I account for accuracy with very hefty time penalties for shots outside the A zone and straight fails for any shot of target. If you do that you don’t have to have internet debates you know what you can do with a particular gun in your hands. That beats internet chatter 10/10 times. It also prevents talking past other people with vague terms that mean totally different things to different people. There is no misunderstanding to I shot a 4.3 second Bill drill or 14.2 second compass drill, etc etc.
wally
Member
They do, saw several in 20 gauge at todays gun show, were asking $50-60 more for them than the 12 gauge which were usually asking ~$330. PSA has the 12 guage for $299 which after shipping would be about $320 + your transfer fees.
I think its neat, and as close as you can get to a sawed-off shotgun without paying the $200 NFA tax. The Shockwave, etc. is a cheaper way to scratch the itch (if you have one) without the Federal paperwork and tax.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Just finished reading the entire thread. Interesting and entertaining; thank you.
I'll admit I've been tempted by the Shockwave; there is something "cool" about it. But I don't think it would displace my 20 gauge Mossberg 500 Bantam with 18-inch cylinder or my G23 as primary home defense tools.
I'm more interested now that they are coming out in 20 gauge, but I think I'll wait until someone else decides it's not for him or her and pick one up second hand.
I'll admit I've been tempted by the Shockwave; there is something "cool" about it. But I don't think it would displace my 20 gauge Mossberg 500 Bantam with 18-inch cylinder or my G23 as primary home defense tools.
I'm more interested now that they are coming out in 20 gauge, but I think I'll wait until someone else decides it's not for him or her and pick one up second hand.
Tomac
Member
I purchased a Shockwave as a range toy BD gift to myself a year ago. After a few hundred rds it's now earned a place in my bedroom HD inventory.
Proper technique is everything w/the Shockwave, and with proper technique I find std 2.75" buckshot to be both fast and controllable (however, 2.75" magnum is about my personal recoil limit with the Shockwave).
IMHO, the Shockwave is great for in-home SD, being far more effective than a handgun yet more maneuverable in tight quarters than a full-stocked longarm.
Tomac
Proper technique is everything w/the Shockwave, and with proper technique I find std 2.75" buckshot to be both fast and controllable (however, 2.75" magnum is about my personal recoil limit with the Shockwave).
IMHO, the Shockwave is great for in-home SD, being far more effective than a handgun yet more maneuverable in tight quarters than a full-stocked longarm.
Tomac
gulogulo1970
Member
I want one even though it won't be better than any Mossberg I currently own. It would be a range toy that maybe I could use defensively, maybe.
"I want one even though it won't be better than any Mossberg I currently own. It would be a range toy that maybe I could use defensively, maybe."
You could always look at the alternative that is made by Remington. Called the Tac - 14 if I recall correctly. Perhaps you will like it better than your Mossberg's. I use my 20ga shotguns for HD and have a Mossberg, a Remington 870, and a Remington 1100. I can no longer use a shoulder held weapon due to damage in my arm and shoulder. I plan on looking at both the Mossberg and the Remington to see how they might work as an alternative to my short barreled riot type guns. I have not had my hands on either of them yet so the only thing I know for curtain is that it will be a 20ga.
You could always look at the alternative that is made by Remington. Called the Tac - 14 if I recall correctly. Perhaps you will like it better than your Mossberg's. I use my 20ga shotguns for HD and have a Mossberg, a Remington 870, and a Remington 1100. I can no longer use a shoulder held weapon due to damage in my arm and shoulder. I plan on looking at both the Mossberg and the Remington to see how they might work as an alternative to my short barreled riot type guns. I have not had my hands on either of them yet so the only thing I know for curtain is that it will be a 20ga.
"This has much-reduced practical applications compared to a shoulder-stocked shotgun.
Denis "
I fully agree with that. It is a gun with few uses . It's main use however is self defense at close ranges, and it might be pretty handy for that. In house against 2 legged predators, up to a possible bear defense gun for those who spend time where they are a possible issue. Perhaps for snakes as well. Then again it will also have toy value !
Denis "
I fully agree with that. It is a gun with few uses . It's main use however is self defense at close ranges, and it might be pretty handy for that. In house against 2 legged predators, up to a possible bear defense gun for those who spend time where they are a possible issue. Perhaps for snakes as well. Then again it will also have toy value !
In a house, a handgun is more dynamic, faster, and easier to operate one-handed if necessary.
And I can be much more precise in aiming against a bear with a good handgun.
Buckshot has its own limitations there. One is speed, one is accuracy.
The Shockwave's more toy than defensive shield, as a practical matter.
Denis
And I can be much more precise in aiming against a bear with a good handgun.
Buckshot has its own limitations there. One is speed, one is accuracy.
The Shockwave's more toy than defensive shield, as a practical matter.
Denis
"In a house, a handgun is more dynamic, faster, and easier to operate one-handed if necessary.
And I can be much more precise in aiming against a bear with a good handgun.
Buckshot has its own limitations there. One is speed, one is accuracy.
The Shockwave's more toy than defensive shield, as a practical matter.
Denis "
I'm not sure what you mean by more dynamic , but I will take the shotgun in general when it comes to that word. As far as precise in aiming you may have a point, but the difference in stopping power of the shotgun is much preferred over most handgun calibers. Lasers and lights would narrow the precision disparity. I would not use buckshot on bear myself, but would consider buckshot an advantage in home defense over a single projectile . Saying that without patterning the short barrel of a shockwave at room distances is an admitted guess on my part.
Perhaps more handling and shooting of the shockwave would be in order to choose it over a regular handgun, but that point is valid with most apples vs oranges decisions. It may be a toy, but I can see the possibility of it being a deadly toy. I wouldn't write it off without some experience in its usage.
And I can be much more precise in aiming against a bear with a good handgun.
Buckshot has its own limitations there. One is speed, one is accuracy.
The Shockwave's more toy than defensive shield, as a practical matter.
Denis "
I'm not sure what you mean by more dynamic , but I will take the shotgun in general when it comes to that word. As far as precise in aiming you may have a point, but the difference in stopping power of the shotgun is much preferred over most handgun calibers. Lasers and lights would narrow the precision disparity. I would not use buckshot on bear myself, but would consider buckshot an advantage in home defense over a single projectile . Saying that without patterning the short barrel of a shockwave at room distances is an admitted guess on my part.
Perhaps more handling and shooting of the shockwave would be in order to choose it over a regular handgun, but that point is valid with most apples vs oranges decisions. It may be a toy, but I can see the possibility of it being a deadly toy. I wouldn't write it off without some experience in its usage.
Kendal Black
Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2011
- Messages
- 1,647
Now available in .410. That might be practical for some uses, more velocity than a Judge and more shots than a Contender.
Edited to add: And, doubtless, better patterns than the Judge.
Edited to add: And, doubtless, better patterns than the Judge.
Last edited:
Handling quickly, shifting positions, engaging in multiple directions quickly, ability to hold up in a firing position one-handed if the other is engaged with doors, furniture, kids, ability to fire rapidly and effectively with one hand if the other's injured, ability to rapidly fire several shots on one target, or two targets.
That's dynamic.
A handgun simply moves around quicker & easier, and it's faster to reload (in most cases).
It's more aimable beyond 10 yards (and don't kid yourself that's all you could ever need).
The PGO falls short on ALL those areas.
Buy one if you want, just make an informed choice.
I have one, but it's suitable only for one very limited application in my universe.
A good handgun trumps it easily for almost every realistic self-defense use.
Denis
That's dynamic.
A handgun simply moves around quicker & easier, and it's faster to reload (in most cases).
It's more aimable beyond 10 yards (and don't kid yourself that's all you could ever need).
The PGO falls short on ALL those areas.
Buy one if you want, just make an informed choice.
I have one, but it's suitable only for one very limited application in my universe.
A good handgun trumps it easily for almost every realistic self-defense use.
Denis
Don't mean to ruffle any feathers DPris . Just think there is at the least some difference of opinion. One can always create a difference in scenarios that can place one thing above another, and I have no problem with much of what you indicate. I do however opinion that one can make a case for the shockwave to equal and possibly achieve some advantages in certain areas of home defense. Dictionary meaning of dynamic can be a couple things but I don't quite see it as you have applied it. For example : " having or showing a lot of energy" . If you look at the muzzle energy of a 20ga 2&3/4" #3 buckshot it is about twice that of a single .357 magnum.
My point is some of this is simply in how you interpret and apply the differences.
At any rate difference of opinions exist on many things. Some would say the sound of a pump shotgun being racked would often end any ill intent of an intruder. I say it depends a lot on the intruder. The noise to a bold SOB might just give them something to shoot at.
I think I mentioned that my go to bump in the night gun just happens to be a traditional handgun. I am open to a closer look at something like the shockwave however to serve that purpose. I get it that you are not.
My point is some of this is simply in how you interpret and apply the differences.
At any rate difference of opinions exist on many things. Some would say the sound of a pump shotgun being racked would often end any ill intent of an intruder. I say it depends a lot on the intruder. The noise to a bold SOB might just give them something to shoot at.
I think I mentioned that my go to bump in the night gun just happens to be a traditional handgun. I am open to a closer look at something like the shockwave however to serve that purpose. I get it that you are not.
- Status
