Treo
member
The irony of the above statement is that, in places like Chicago, it's true.
Off duty Police told they can't carry at University
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Old Dog
Member
Deanimator stated that
Most of our departments are, in fact, closed shops, where we're required to be members of our local union or guild, but please don't ever, ever make the mistake of believing that FOP is the official voice of all law enforcement officers in this country (notwithstanding FOP's claim to the contrary).
And for folks like Treo, the real irony (and the pity) is that most of you will never know the sort of scrutiny law enforcement officers have to work under and the consequences of misbehavior, illegal activity or not following policy ... I won't speak for Chicago (you're welcome, Deanimator!) but really, if ya'll want to believe that the "thin blue line" exists (in this era of videorecording and litigation) and that cops are free to engage in non-lawful behaviors (including spousal abuse, DWI/DUI) that will always be covered up by their fellow officers, have at it. The truth is out there; you just refuse to acknowledge it because you want to continue believing, for whatever reasons, that those in law enforcement will knowingly harass, detain and disrespect you for merely exercising your Constitutional rights.
Old Dog out.
Um, not to belabor this whole FOP thing, but please do some research on exactly what FOP is and what it does.
Most of our departments are, in fact, closed shops, where we're required to be members of our local union or guild, but please don't ever, ever make the mistake of believing that FOP is the official voice of all law enforcement officers in this country (notwithstanding FOP's claim to the contrary).
And for folks like Treo, the real irony (and the pity) is that most of you will never know the sort of scrutiny law enforcement officers have to work under and the consequences of misbehavior, illegal activity or not following policy ... I won't speak for Chicago (you're welcome, Deanimator!) but really, if ya'll want to believe that the "thin blue line" exists (in this era of videorecording and litigation) and that cops are free to engage in non-lawful behaviors (including spousal abuse, DWI/DUI) that will always be covered up by their fellow officers, have at it. The truth is out there; you just refuse to acknowledge it because you want to continue believing, for whatever reasons, that those in law enforcement will knowingly harass, detain and disrespect you for merely exercising your Constitutional rights.
Old Dog out.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Old Dog,
You are right, we will never know the scrutiny LEO's are under. I do know that if you are a theft victim in Indiana that item is gone. Whether it it 'recovered' or not. I know if an Indiana sheriff's deputy uses a public credit card for personal purposes (a clear violation of public trust) s/he may spend a whole month behind a desk (without pay cut) and may or may not be required to make restitution to the taxpaxer fund. As well as a host of other insults to the peace and dignity of society I won't list. Perhaps it is different elsewhere. But as another so aptly put, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and reproduces like a duck. It's probably a duck.
Selena
You are right, we will never know the scrutiny LEO's are under. I do know that if you are a theft victim in Indiana that item is gone. Whether it it 'recovered' or not. I know if an Indiana sheriff's deputy uses a public credit card for personal purposes (a clear violation of public trust) s/he may spend a whole month behind a desk (without pay cut) and may or may not be required to make restitution to the taxpaxer fund. As well as a host of other insults to the peace and dignity of society I won't list. Perhaps it is different elsewhere. But as another so aptly put, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and reproduces like a duck. It's probably a duck.
Selena
hotshotshoting
Member
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i do find it amusing also that people who think everyone in the usa should have the same rights... don't you think that depending on your job you will get additional different "privileges"? i mean seriously do you think you should be able to declare war?
basically i believe everyone has their basic rights... (even if the government fails to treat the 2nd amendment like all the others... ) either way
with jobs you get additional think about it...
basically i believe everyone has their basic rights... (even if the government fails to treat the 2nd amendment like all the others... ) either way
with jobs you get additional think about it...
sacp81170a
Member
Just putting the shoe on the other foot, so to speak:
"Because every single member of the NRA hasn't spoken up and denounced Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and Seung-Hui Cho, you all must agree with them and maybe even secretly admire them. Just admit it. You gun owners are all alike."
Substitute "FOP" for "NRA", "Chicago PD" for "EH, DK and SHC", and "LEO's" for "gun owners". Now for extra credit, explain the functional difference in logic between the two statements.
"Because every single member of the NRA hasn't spoken up and denounced Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and Seung-Hui Cho, you all must agree with them and maybe even secretly admire them. Just admit it. You gun owners are all alike."
Substitute "FOP" for "NRA", "Chicago PD" for "EH, DK and SHC", and "LEO's" for "gun owners". Now for extra credit, explain the functional difference in logic between the two statements.
Deanimator
Member
Yes, I see how it works. I also see a lot of Chicago cops who wish to hold themselves to the LOWEST standard. I can't count the number of times I've seen them complain that they're held to a higher standard than gang members, etc.
If you wish to hold yourself to that standard, that's perfectly alright by me. Just don't pretend that you're either doing something higher for society or that I owe you anything for it. Pick one.
If I didn't think there were bad non-police gun owners, I wouldn't own a gun for self-defense... either that, or I'd need it ONLY to defend myself from bad police, something I don't claim.
My first and ONLY expectation of police is that they obey the law, and that the law be the same for EVERYBODY as much as that's possible. An unfortunate number of police officers and the Fraternal Order of Police disagree.
Deanimator
Member
You don't pass LEGAL judgements because neither you nor I have that power. On the other hand, I find it simply unbelievable that you don't make PERSONAL, MORAL judgements, such as whom you'd want your minor daughter to date.
I have EVERY right in the world, both to capitalize CERTAIN words for emphasis, and to make moral judgements about people who act as enablers of wife beaters, or people who murder policemen during traffic stops.
Deanimator
Member
Well let me step up to the plate and speak for the Chicago PD.
Most of the recent high profile examples of police misconduct have involved ON CAMERA acts by Chicago Police officers.
Shooting of Michael Pleasance - Transit authority video proved that Officer Weems was LYING about the circumstances of the shooting. Oddly, he was PROMOTED after the shooting, and NEVER prosecuted.
Jefferson Tap beating - Video shows officers waving off other officers responding to 911 calls by patrons and employees. Department delayed prosecution as long as humanly possible.
Beating of Karolyna Obrycka - Beating took place on video. Subsequent attempts at intimidation were recorded. Officer Abbate was not immediately arrested, was allowed to hide out in "rehab", was not cuffed when finally arrested, has been consistently shown deference by other officers and supervisors, was initially charged with minor misdemeanors despite the nature of the offenses.
SOS false arrests/warrantless searches - Video inside and outside the bar in question shows the written report of the incident to be nothing but a lie. Initial pretext is directly contradicted by the video. Unlawful warrantless searches are shown by video inside the bar.
Thefts from CSX rail yard - Police caught on railroad co video stealing from boxcars.
You get the idea...
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Old Dog, it has everything to do with skewed information. Where do people get virtually all of their news from? Either official news sources or word of mouth. BOTH of those sources are 100 times more likely to report negative of positive. When's the last time you saw a newspaper article about a traffic stop where nothing happened but a ticket or warning being given? When's that last time you saw a nightly news feature story about cops and how much paperwork they have to file for every single arrest?
It doesn't matter if 1 out of 10,000 police incidents go wrong. That one will be the one on the internet, on the news, and out of your friends mouth. And that's all the information the cop bashers have access to. All they see is the bad, even if it's only .001% of actual events. In their eyes, it's 100%, because it's 100% of what they've heard about.
Even look at deanimators citing. He's got a handful of stories about maybe 10 officers. Now many officers are employed by CPD? 13,000 if Wikipedia is to be believed. Now how many of those officers are corrupt? Now how many aren't? And how many of THOSE make it onto the news for just doing their jobs? Around 0.
Skewed sources, skewed opinions.
It doesn't matter if 1 out of 10,000 police incidents go wrong. That one will be the one on the internet, on the news, and out of your friends mouth. And that's all the information the cop bashers have access to. All they see is the bad, even if it's only .001% of actual events. In their eyes, it's 100%, because it's 100% of what they've heard about.
Even look at deanimators citing. He's got a handful of stories about maybe 10 officers. Now many officers are employed by CPD? 13,000 if Wikipedia is to be believed. Now how many of those officers are corrupt? Now how many aren't? And how many of THOSE make it onto the news for just doing their jobs? Around 0.
Skewed sources, skewed opinions.
Deanimator
Member
I don't recall seeing ANY NRA members defend Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold OR Cho Seung-Hui. Have YOU?
Nor is it the OFFICIAL position of the NRA that any of the above named murderers should have received any sort of deferential treatment AFTER being convicted of their crimes. If you have evidence to the contrary, you ought to post it here. I might even resign my NRA membership and give up my instructor's credentials.
On the other hand, I've seen LOTS of Chicago cops defend Officer Abbate, the Jefferson Tap cops, Jerry Finnegan and even Jon Burge.
You certainly painted a picture, just not the one you intended.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Deanimator, is it also required to be a member of the NRA to be a gun owner like being a member of the FOP is required to be an officer in many/most departments?
There is a difference between rights and priviledges. My rights are listed in the BOR. My priviledges are listed by rank.
In all fairness to LEOs on this board, it is ashame that pro-gun LEOs are taking flak for the anti-gun LEOs BUT you guys need to be careful how you tread about the BOR especially the 2A on a 2A board. Don't let yourself be seen as supporting those fools in the media trying to dicate reality from their elitist fantasy about LEOs.
rc109a
Member
Deanimator: I am not going to pass judgement on those whom I know nothing about. You are trying to spin facts to suit your own needs and desire to take everyone down around you. As far as the comment "I find it simply unbelievable that you don't make PERSONAL, MORAL judgements, such as whom you'd want your minor daughter to date." How in the world would you know about my making personal judgements? Where did you come up with this nonsense? I said I would not pass judgement on situations that I was not aware of or educated about. What is wrong with that? Why do you feel the need to attack those who have done nothing to you? Why the need to attack people personally. This is the high road, not your own forum to attack those who will not stoop as low as you and to attack members of this board. If you have issues about persons on this forum then take it up with them in private. I guess I could start being like you. Before I became a LEO I was attacked by a white male with a valid CC permit. He decided that he needed my wallet and money more then me. He left 20 stitches in my head when he struck me with his 45. He had no criminal record and was a memeber of the NRA. So now am I to assume that all white CC permit holders with 45's and members of the NRA are criminals? No! Instead I vowed never to become a victim and to help those who cannot help themselves. That is why I became a LEO. If you don't like LEO's then so be it. It is your opinion and I respect that. I don't like everyone that breaths, but I still respect them. Every day I put my life on the line to protect them, whether or not they like me. Its not about likes and dislikes, its about honor, courage, and comittement.
Old Dog
Member
Well, I was gonna be done with this thread, but a couple final thoughts.
First, always interesting how some here don't read through posts, but simply pick and choose those statements they'll respond to ... (No one here seems to want to actually find out what FOP is or does.)
Second, I did a double-take on this one:
I'm pretty sure that none of us in any area of law enforcement really believe we're doing "something higher for society" or that you (the citizen) owes us anything for it. Y'all are creating that concept. We do it 'cause we enjoy the work, and certainly not for the money. But again, let's not let facts get in the way of personal biases.
First, always interesting how some here don't read through posts, but simply pick and choose those statements they'll respond to ... (No one here seems to want to actually find out what FOP is or does.)
Second, I did a double-take on this one:
Well now, I looked hard to see if any of those (who claim to be in the LE business) in this thread (and a few other topical current threads) seem to be "pretending" that they're doing something higher for society or stating that you owe them anything for it ... and guess what? I didn't see any remarks along those lines. But hey, why bother to document one's comments -- easier to just tar and feather. (I am curious as to why someone who lives in Ohio maintains such an interest in the goings-on in Chicago, but that's neither here nor there -- apparently, LE malfeasance is simply an easier target when conducted by the boys in Chi-Town.)
I'm pretty sure that none of us in any area of law enforcement really believe we're doing "something higher for society" or that you (the citizen) owes us anything for it. Y'all are creating that concept. We do it 'cause we enjoy the work, and certainly not for the money. But again, let's not let facts get in the way of personal biases.
Deanimator
Member
Certainly an "interesting" analysis, oddly reminiscent of the defenses of the Soviet Union by its officials and supporters.
Specificity DIMINISHES credibility?
The BEST way to achieve a "skewed" perception is to leave things out. Some things which you've omitted:
The time frame in which the offenses were committed - How MANY high profile cases have there been in say, the last two years? There haven't been ANY in my town. If it's all "bad apples" in Chicago, then they've got an orchard big enough to poison 10,000 Snow Whites.
Official response - ALL of the recent high profile cases have involved inaction, collusion, and or favoritism. A cop who shot an unarmed man and LIED about it, was given a thirty day suspension without pay. I suspect that if I were to do the same thing with a home invader, I'd be in prison right now. Is lying to the police a crime ONLY a crime if you're NOT the police? A cop who savagely beat a woman who weighed less than half what he did was shown incredible deference, being allowed to hide out in "rehab" before being arrested (but NOT cuffed) for MINOR MISDEMEANORS. If I savagely beat a cop's wife, do you think ANYBODY will say, "Can't go after him, he's in rehab!"
Duration of the acts - Police torture went on for YEARS. SOS engaged in kidnappings, home invasions and illegal searches and seizures for YEARS.
The Japanese in WWII tried ignoring the unpleasant details. We just had the dual anniversaries of the results.
Deanimator
Member
Is it also required to withhold criticism of the FOP and its policies? If not, does that not indicate agreement?
rc109a
Member
Nobody is agreeing with the FOP. Just because we refuse to slam them like you do does not place us in agreement with them. You think because people will not jump on the bandwagon with you that we are hiding or indicating agreement. We are not. You are reading way to much into these posts so you can continue on your soapbox.
sacp81170a
Member
I don't recall seeing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM denounce Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold OR Cho Seung-Hui. Have YOU? I refer you to the logic of the first statement in quotes above...
Intune
Member
Well dang, no wonder so many crimes go unsolved.
How about this humdinger. Looks like it might jibe right smartly to your inquiry, eh? 
I’m just yankin’ yer chain. Don’t sic the black helos on me and quit trying to beam through my tinfoil. It’s double layered!
Deanimator
Member
Then learn something about it.
What have I "spun"? I've related facts that anyone can find out for themselves. I've even told you EXACTLY where to go to get some of it.
Strange that I want to "take everyone down around" me when I've SPECIFICALLY noted that these are not problems with EVERY police department, and that they tend to cluster within CERTAIN departments. If I'm not mistaken, I've even singled out a particular department for praise. What I think is happening here is that I present you with a thorny problem. It's easy for you to deal with the guy who says "I hate cops, all cops are bad!" with no facts, no logic and no specifics. When on the other hand, I bring SPECIFICS and patterns of behavior to the table, I'm not so easily dismissed. I see the same thing in critics of the atomic bombings of Japan. When you can tell them IN DETAIL what the Japanese were doing up until the times the bombs were dropped and what they PLANNED to do, they're in a real quandry.
Someone who will not make moral judgements strikes me as someone trying not to know unpleasant facts. I can't make you know what goes on in the world or care. Conversely, you can't make me not point it out. Reality doesn't go away merely because it makes you sad.
Deanimator
Member
Repeating a failed argument doesn't advance it.
Again, can you cite ANY NRA member defending mass murderers? I think that if you could, you would. Obviously you cannot.
Again, is it the OFFICIAL policy of the NRA that those of its members CONVICTED of serious crimes should be exempted from laws affecting everyone else? Got a cite?
Treo
member
My Gawd all the mods must be in church!
Word of advice this is becoming one of those threads that goes on W/out notice until they all of a sudden slam it shut and ban every body involved
Word of advice this is becoming one of those threads that goes on W/out notice until they all of a sudden slam it shut and ban every body involved
Deanimator
Member
Silence is agreement.
Were it the OFFICIAL policy of the NRA that ONLY its members be exempt from the laws against domestic violence, I would "slam" them. Unlike the Fraternal Order of Police, it is NOT their policy.
rc109a
Member
So when a police asks you a question and you decide to exercise your right to "remain silent" then your guilty of the crime accused? I see this is going no place. Take care...
Intune
Member
Didn't something happen at a university in TN? 
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