On handguns and bears

[Ronsch]

I have read all through the various posts. My favourite brush guns in bear country are: 12 Gauge Winchester 13. I have a mixed load of slugs and buckshot. It can be unwieldy at times, but slung properly, I can get it into action rather quickly. I back that up with either my 1937 S&W .45ACP or my Uberti Cattleman in .45 LC.

I have been bluff charged twice, and have not had to fire on a bear recently. Please bear (bad pun...sorry) in mind that bear hunting is the deliberate stalking to kill the animal, therefore the armament is going to be different than a "grab and go" trip into the woods.

In addition, I went to the triennial Hunter Education conference in January here in Juneau. One of the presenters was a late 20-early 30-ish young lady who has hunted all of the major species of bear (including polar bear) with her compound bow. On that particular hunt, her backup was two guides, one carrying a .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun and the other had some nondescript sporterized Mauser variant in 8mm.

So, basically the lesson was and is shot placement in hunting, and a kind of pray to hit with good shot placement in the near in a self-defense situation.

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[Tacbandit]

Quote by cisco11:
"My bear rifle is a Win. M 71 in 450 alaskan.A very old cartridge ..."

Sounds adequate to me.....

Quote by cisco11:
"I load various bullets 500 grs, or so. Pick it apart all you over "Ballisticated" wannabees."

That's funny...
Tac

 

[KodiakBeer]

You should assume very little based on a person's current location. Although it is interesting that you would use this as a personal attack.

You're the one sneering at those of us who live in Alaska and have actual experience of the subject. If our experience of actual grizzlies (rather than your TV bears and ballistics charts) is barely worth consideration, then your complete lack of experience is worth far less.

Again, I don't know where this comes from, nobody is saying that a handgun is better than a rifle for anything but portability. I'm saying that your assessment of the two cartridges in question based on muzzle energy is bogus.

Muzzle energy only comes into play if you miss. If you get that CNS shot, muzzle energy is almost meaningless. Just about any centerfire round will take down a bear if you hit the center of the face. If you miss that shot and hit him elsewhere, you'll wish you had a .458.

You may "blast away" as you wish but I would choose to actually stop the critter, as untold numbers of dangerous game hunters have preached about for years.

The quote was "aim at the center of the face and blast away." As for your "untold legions of dangerous game hunters" well, why are you arguing with a bunch of experienced dangerous game hunters? We're just the tip of the iceberg, because the real experts are a bunch of nameless field biologists who go out and deal with these animals routinely, and they all carry shotguns or iron sighted big bore RIFLES.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I have a friend who retired from Alaska Fish and Game and is now a commercial fisherman and brown bear guide on a boat hunting Admiralty Island, he started out with a 300 Win Mag, went to a 338 Win Mag, then a 375 Holland and Holland and now uses a 458.

That's a pretty typical story. The longer you live here and the more experience you get with these animals, the more you step up in power and bore size. Also, if you ask your friend you'll probably find that his .458 has iron sights or a scope that dials down to 1X. People all seem to come to similar conclusions when they gain experience.

I came here in the late 80's and carried a Weihrauch Bounty Hunter .44 for "bear protection" and several mid bore rifles for general hunting. After encountering a few aggressive animals the light began to dawn and I stepped up to a GG in .45/70 for summer carry. After getting mauled and fully realizing how fast these events unfold, I switched to a shotgun for field carry and a .350 Rem Mag for general hunting.

It isn't about fear, it's about recognizing the reality and adapting.

 

[Tacbandit]

My brother that lives in Kodiak is here, and we've been planning a brown bear hunt up there, for next year. While I may have seen bears in the woods, at the zoo, and on the hunting shows on television, I am by no means an "expert". You can bet that I will listen to his advice. I also realize that there is no "magic caliber" that guarantees all is well...what it takes is listening to, and then heeding the advice of those guys that live there with and around those bears. It's the bears world when you're in his territory, and only he knows what he will do for sure...but it's been proven over and over that it has a lot to do with how you react to the bear, as to whether or not you provoke him further. Listening to the stories of my brother and his buddies on their hunting/fishing/camping trips...I'm amazed at the restraint they've shown at times. Where they have eventually fired to scare the bear after a false charge, I probably would've been trying to kill the bear at that point. Point being, I'll be in good hands, and I'll do what I'm told while in bear country. If you're not familiar with bears, you probably shouldn't be out there with them, at least not without someone who is.

 

[shotgun-2]

Why would someone that lives in a southern state want to argue with a resident of Kodiak AK., about how to protect against a bear attack while in the bush working?
All the internet fantasies about what .658 Super Mag. rifle or what ever giant handcannon should have been used by the unfortunate surveyor in the bear attack, and how he should have placed two well aimed shots into the bear's left nostril and right eye while being charged is pure BS.

I am not an Alaskan (I live in the Pacific Northwest) but spent several years working in the Alaskan Bush in the mid 70's thru the early 80's and had many encounters with both black and brown bears. It is my experence that people that are working in the bush can't normaly pack a large rifle on their person while working and that most encounters with bears are unexpected and up close with almost no time to react.

A large canister of bear spray is probably the best first defense and then if necessary and you still can, go for the gun. I think a short barreled shotgun is best and then the largest handgun you can handle well next.

Working and living in the Alaska Bush is a lot different than going out hunting there. Most bear encounters go without incident other than a little pee in the pants.

Most of all listen to the locals about what protection you need instead of some dude sitting at his computer in his air conditioned house thousands of miles from Ak having a day dream while reading Field & Stream.

Just trying to be real!

 

[racine]

Video of Wildlife Officer's 357 & 6 shots into a grizz

Anyone see that video? It was a parks and wildlife officer on top of the cage releasing this grizz that came after him. He unloaded 6 rounds of 357 and the bear kept coming. He got away with the thinnest of margins. I've never encountered browns or grizz but a few blackies in So. Colorado. Given a choice of what to carry in grizz country like Montana I'll bring the biggest shotty slug gun I can/am allowed to carry or at the least a 44 mag with big buffalo bore slugs and a couple of pepper spray. You're not allowed shotties in natl parks but now allowed CCW pistols (can you carry a CCW shottie in you pack???). I'm chiming in because I want to ask if anyone has ever attached a laser to their 44 mag?

 

[mjyeagle]

the 460 and 500 smith and wesson will drop any thing except an elephant or cape buffalo and mabey they would if banded solids were not illegal to manufacture for hand guns the 475 linebah would have no trouble with anthing in the americas i would not feel comfortable carrying a my 357 for bear protection that would be stupid that is a plain as i can put it i would carry my 460 S&W for protection anywhere except mabey on a dangerious game hunt

I'm chiming in because I want to ask if anyone has ever attached a laser to their 44 mag?

no but it sure sounds like fun

 

[PH/CIB]

Quote: "After getting mauled and fully realizing how fast these events unfold, I switched to a shotgun for field carry and a .350 Rem Mag for general hunting. "

Always enjoy your posts KodiacBeer! That took some real guts to get mauled and go back out in the field again! Would love to hear your story about the mauling if you would care to share it!

Alaska is some of the toughest hunting I have done in the US.

 

[saturno_v]

KodiakBeer

I respect your experience and knowledge, however many same Alaskan residents tell you that you do not need anything more than a 30-06 (loaded with proper bullets, heavy for caliber) for grizzly defence...

As you said, during a charge only a CNS shot counts.....if you miss it, even a 458 is useless....

 

[KodiakBeer]

however many same Alaskan residents tell you that you do not need anything more than a 30-06 (loaded with proper bullets, heavy for caliber) for grizzly defence...

A 30.06 would be just fine. Bigger is better, but any long arm trumps a handgun by a considerable margin.

I carry a .350 Rem Mag, but that's not much of a step up over a 30.06. It's kind of an obscure cartridge that most people aren't familiar with. It's not really a "magnum" so much as .35 Whelen in a short stubby case that fits in a short action carbine. I chose it more for it's compactness than its bore size, though I appreciate being able to use heavier slugs.

When I'm not hunting, I carry a Baikal coach gun that fits in my pack with the butt hanging over my shoulder.

 

[kgpcr]

Its really funny how many people here can tell us all about Grizzly guns but have never seen a Grizz. Its funny how many people have never been to Alaska and yet they know all about how to deal with a PO'd bear. You are right living in AK does not make you and expert but i will damn sure tell you living in TN and such you know NOTHING about it. Listen to Kodiak and people who have spent hours in Alaska. I have never had a problem with a bear in AK. I got chased by a cow moose that just made it to the truck in time. That was a hoot! I have spent lots of time on the rivers in AK and seen plenty of bear and thank God i have never had a problem. I carry a Ruger Alaskan .454 with Double tap cast bullets and hope i never find out how good they work.

 

[kgpcr]

by the way all the FPS and TKO an all that crap does not mean much. I know for a fact bear cant read. The bigger the better

 

[Manco]

Anyone see that video? It was a parks and wildlife officer on top of the cage releasing this grizz that came after him. He unloaded 6 rounds of 357 and the bear kept coming. He got away with the thinnest of margins.

On the other hand, a single round could have killed the bear with the right placement. It's just hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from a single incident. There are even people who have taken that much or nearly so and kept coming. For instance, Trooper Mark Coates put five .357 Magnum rounds into an obese bad guy's COM with no immediate effect. The bad guy shot back with two .22 LR rounds from a puny NAA derringer, and one was stopped by Coates' ballistic vest, while the other passed through a gap in the vest near his left armpit, inflicting a fatal wound. Unfortunately, the perp survived his wounds. With the supreme importance of shot placement being a given, what conclusions can we draw from this incident regarding caliber? Without more detailed information, not a whole lot, I'm afraid.

I've never encountered browns or grizz but a few blackies in So. Colorado. Given a choice of what to carry in grizz country like Montana I'll bring the biggest shotty slug gun I can/am allowed to carry or at the least a 44 mag with big buffalo bore slugs and a couple of pepper spray.

In my opinion, use a big canister of bear spray first if you want to have the best chance of surviving. This is because it requires far less precise placement to be effective than bullets, and its effects can be felt more quickly by the bear in the vast majority of cases (except for direct CNS hits). The only argument against this that I can think of is that the sound of gunfire can often deter or even scare off bears, but I wouldn't count on it (spray, then shoot).

I'm chiming in because I want to ask if anyone has ever attached a laser to their 44 mag?

I think that lasers are fine for indoor environments, and even have some advantages that no other sighting system has (e.g. being able to aim without holding the gun up to your eyes), but in the outdoors I think that a red dot sight would work better for rapid sight picture acquisition (and it had better be rapid when a grizzly is charging! ).

EDIT: Regarding the red dot sight, I was thinking of models that could be left on continuously for extended periods of time, not ones that have to be switched on right before they can be used.

 

[sonier]

I thought this thread was a excuse for a flame war lol and ive seen some of these people act the same way in just about every bear VS. thread
I have just agreed to disagree at this point i trust my 357 mag python with my handloads to do what it needs to on a bear,
I wont try to hammer my beliefs into anyones thick headed skull. cause apparently ill need a sledgehammer at the least to do so

 

[KodiakBeer]

I have just agreed to disagree at this point i trust my 357 mag python with my handloads to do what it needs to on a bear

Well, if you ever come up to Alaska in July, August, September (when it's easiest to see bears), email me and I'll take you out to see some grizzlies at close range. I'll even buy the first beer afterward.
You may change your mind about that .357, but even if you don't I'll still buy the first beer.

 

[sonier]

When a few funds get untied i may be headed up there for a guided hunt, It probally will be next year but i will make it a lifelong goal to take a grizzly with a 357 magnum, it may be hard to find a guide who will be willing to let me but it has been done and i will show it can be done again.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Hunting one with a .357 is surely possible. Keep in mind that your guide is morally and legally obligated to put the animal down if it doesn't drop right there. But, if you take your time and make the right shot, there's no reason it can't be done.

A far less expensive hunt would be SE Alaska black bear. On some of those islands you can see 50 or 60 bears a day, especially in the Spring when the brush is down. No guide required.

 

[kgpcr]

Untill you see up close and personal the size, speed and power of a brown or grizz you just wont understand. Personally i would not use a .357 on them but then again i want clean kills.

 

[KodiakBeer]

In Alaska there will be a guide present to put it down if he doesn't drop it instantly, which would be kind of a shame after investing 15k in a hunt. But, if he's good with a revolver, he could put one down easily enough with a head shot. It wouldn't be my cup of tea either...

 

[PH/CIB]

There is an old saying,,,"When hunting Field Mice in Elephant Country,,,always carry a .460 Weatherby!"

Robert Ruark said,,,"Use Enough Gun" and the old adage of shoot the biggest gun you can shoot accurately,,,surely applies to anything that can kill you,,,whether it be animals or men.

If I remember right I read somewhere long ago, that an Eskimo or Indian a Woman I believe killed either a Polar Bear or a Brown Bear with a 22 rifle, I have read another account of a man in Africa killing a lion with a knife. However I am not inclined to try either, although I will be the first to admit carrying a heavy caliber handgun in a good holster is much easier than carrying a heavy rifle. Karamojo Bell killed scores of Elephants with a 275 rifle, men died trying to duplicate his feats.

However I was trained in Nam never to let my rifle out of arms reach whether sleeping, eating, going to the bathroom or working, and I will take a heavy big bore rifle over any handgun anytime.

I love Alaska, noone thinks twice about anyone carrying a rifle or a handgun anytime!

 

[Tacbandit]

Quote: by KodiakBeer
"In Alaska there will be a guide present to put it down if he doesn't drop it instantly, which would be kind of a shame after investing 15k in a hunt....."

Regardless of the expense of the hunt (and I won't be paying that much), the value of having that guide/back-up will be equally as valuable and important to me. I probably won't make many trips up there to hunt and fish, so I plan to make the most of the opportunity I'll have. I'll probably go with a 300WM or 338WM, as I agree with kgpcr, in that I want to make a clean and humane kill. (It also gives me an excuse for a another new rifle.) A lesser caliber may work, but I'll feel more comfortable with either of those. Personally, I appreciate the insight from KodiakBeer, and you other folks that live there with the bears, and for helping us to see it for what it is, and keeping it real...

 

[KodiakBeer]

I'd certainly go with the heavier rifle as long as I shot it well. Good luck on your hunt! Do you know what part of the island you're hunting?

 

[geologist]

I work in brown and white bear habitat. If weight is no object I have a .375 H&H, 45-70 Guide Gun, 14" 12 ga pump and a LE No. 5 in .303.

All of these long guns are too heavy and ackward for a geologist to carry on traverse. So we compromise by carrying bear spray and a revolver instead. In my case and for many other Canadian geologists, a .454 Casull. I know that even a .454 Casull is marginal but it is after all a compromise.

 

[kgpcr]

Geo
you bring up a good point what to carry. I woudl prefer an MA-2 for a PO'd brownie but then again you really cant carry one of those around so when i am out and about in AK its a .454 with Double Tap hard cast bullets. Not perfect but its quick to bring in to play. a 45-70 on your back is a bit slow and a pain to carry around when fishing.