PDW's... FN PS90, M1 Carbine, AR pistol or something else?
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RBid
Member
The Uzi isn't really a PDW. PDWs typically use rounds like the 5.7 or 4.6, which are armor defeating rounds. The Uzi is more of a sub gun, like the MP5 or UMP. Honestly, I'd prefer a UMP .40 or Kriss Vector than a PDW. In the absence of body armor, the pistol caliber weapons have a reputation for performing better.
PDWs are niche weapons that have been wrongly pressed into use that they are less suited to.
PDWs are niche weapons that have been wrongly pressed into use that they are less suited to.
C-grunt
Member
I agree very much. Having read up on the 5.7 and the 4.6, Im not to impressed. They definitely have their niche for anti body armor use though.
That being said this article shows equipment supposedly left by SEALs in Africa this week and they were apparently using a MP7. Those aren't the kind of guys who use subpar equipment because its cool.
http://www.dhanaan.com/saxaafada-sh...dii-ajaanibta-ahaa-ee-xalay-weeraray-baraawe/
M1GarandDeerHunter
Member
Interesting thread. I think it depends where you live and what you typically do. I just happened to handle a P90 yesterday. It struck me as a fun gun. No full auto, and a longer barrel than the original. Underpowered round. Basically a high powered .22. Me I would carry a pistol and call it good. If I feel a need for range, how about a 30-30 win. with a 16" barrel? Any of the commonly used tacticool carbines would work too I guess.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I've shot with secret service agents and nothing I've seen would indicate that they'd be better off with an Uzi than a handgun. Not saying they were poor shots, necessarily, but that I've seen nothing that would change the impressions I've developed from watching many other shooters run comparative challenges. They surely have other reasons for carrying submachine guns (or PDWs) than simple speed of accurate hits on target.
Maybe so. An amazing guy with a very unusual system of use of his guns. However, there is nothing I've read that indicates he, and the other members of his stakeout squads or similar units were applying purely scientific reasoning in choosing their weapons. Or, rather, their reasons were broader than simply speed of accurate hits on target.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
All that to say, the new model of PDW is not the old model of M1 Carbines and submachine guns.
The PDWs of today all seem to be based entirely on the idea of high rate of fire in very controllable, small cartridges capable of beating body armor. That's a new phenomenon, really, and a novel way to approach the problem. (Sort of...the idea's been tossed around before, but the proliferation of multiple versions available indicates a perception of a growing problem.)
The PDWs of today all seem to be based entirely on the idea of high rate of fire in very controllable, small cartridges capable of beating body armor. That's a new phenomenon, really, and a novel way to approach the problem. (Sort of...the idea's been tossed around before, but the proliferation of multiple versions available indicates a perception of a growing problem.)
a PDW is a tool for someone who is not active combat,
but needs to heed rule #1 of a gunfight: Bring a gun.
In that case it`s a warzone, so you bring a little bit more
than just "a" gun, but as much gun as you can carry without
being overloaded or hindered.
A sub2000 i.e would be the comparable truck-gun
for the real world. imho.
but needs to heed rule #1 of a gunfight: Bring a gun.
In that case it`s a warzone, so you bring a little bit more
than just "a" gun, but as much gun as you can carry without
being overloaded or hindered.
A sub2000 i.e would be the comparable truck-gun
for the real world. imho.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I think the Personal Defense Weapon PDW is another approach to the late 1930s Light Rifle specification that gave us the M1 Carbine for WWII.
Light Rifle or PDW: A combat weapon for support troops who could not carry a full sized rifle, but for whom a pistol was totally inadequate due to the fact they could be facing front line combat troops in modern warfare.
The original weight spec for the light rifle (max effective aimed fire range 300yds) was 5 pounds with sling and 20 rounds. I believe that 5 pounds was the weight of a .45 1911, 3 magazines 21 rounds, web belt with leather holster and mag pouch.
The modern wide issue of light weight body armor for combat troops required a rethink of the need.
However I have no interest in a PDW other than as a curio in the history of military arms development. I do believe in having a gun on the mountain, but the most aggressive threat I have actually had was a free running dog pack.
Light Rifle or PDW: A combat weapon for support troops who could not carry a full sized rifle, but for whom a pistol was totally inadequate due to the fact they could be facing front line combat troops in modern warfare.
The original weight spec for the light rifle (max effective aimed fire range 300yds) was 5 pounds with sling and 20 rounds. I believe that 5 pounds was the weight of a .45 1911, 3 magazines 21 rounds, web belt with leather holster and mag pouch.
The modern wide issue of light weight body armor for combat troops required a rethink of the need.
However I have no interest in a PDW other than as a curio in the history of military arms development. I do believe in having a gun on the mountain, but the most aggressive threat I have actually had was a free running dog pack.
mdauben
Member
Personally, I don't consider the M-1 a PDW, but rather a carbine. Like wise the AR pistol isn't a PDW either, its just a large, unwieldy, pistol. I suppose the definition is hazy enough, though, that you can call either a PDW if you want.
None?
IMO the niche for a PDW is a shoulder fired weapon, that is smaller than a convential carbine. Weapons like the FN P90, H&K MP7, etc., are all SBR-length weapons. They also rely on full-auto or burst-fire for much of their effectiveness. The "civilian legal" version of the P90 with a 16-inch barrel and semi-auto action, trades off much of the handiness and firepower of the original design and IMO is less attractive compared to a simple AR with 14.5 inch barrel + fixed flash hider or a convential double-stack 9mm service pistol.
Cool as they may be, I find PDWs to not offer enough advantages to a civilian over more convential firearms.
jimmyraythomason
Member
nevermind, I misread the post
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
"Shock and awwww!"
(But what is this, 1985? Mp5s?)
You don't think civilian fan boys are the only ones who get overly jiggered about kewl gunz? Most big boys, if your ran them though a shoot house with a Glock and again with a sub gun -- even if their hit factor was consistently 5 times better with the handgun -- would still want that sub gun. (Especialy if they get to wear one of those ninja masks, too!)
kBob
Member
Oddly one PDW I used in 1982 I used "offensively" in a training exercise with the Frankfurt Special Police Group of Frankfurt am Maine Germany. This Swat type group was doing room entries with four or five men. One was armed with an MP5 being used as a semi auto carbine, and one was armed with an MP5k which was set up on a special sling, had the front pistol grip, and used a 15 round magazine to aid in concealability. This last seemed od as the MP 5 was the fixed stock variety. The others carried Sig 220 series of some sort with 8 round mags.
The scenario was to approach an apartment where an old Bader Meinhof type was training some young Red Army Faction types with out attracting attention and then neutralizing the room.......oddly the polizi in the training problem did not identify themselves or call for surrender or disarming......different way of doing things
The MP5k was slung so that one could push forward with both grips and tighten the sling so as to have it act as something like a stock. I had difficulty in that individual targets were to be engaged with 7 to 8 rounds on full auto in a single burst, this being contray to my 2-4 round burst training, but when in Rome....At in the room ranges a single less than one second burst could be held on a military target.....but this did mean you effectively had a two shot weapon. I mentioned the engagement of vissable targets because part of the exercise solution was to engage either a closet door or couch with a full 15 round burst. No fooling. They were engaged with a figure eight sweep that seemed to actually hit the door at least 15 times and it would have been difficult to be in that closet and not hit. This technique was used in the Mogudishu (hey, I can not spell English give me a break)rescue by GSG9 and so these Germans thought it was the neatest thing since sliced bread.
Honestly I had issues with the difficulty in having to have your body aligned correctly to control the MP5k, but if you got everything in the right place it was impressive in a 9x19mm sort of way.
I was much more interested in the support guns their sharpshooters used and everyone, even the visitor, got to practice with, the MP5SD with heavy subsonic ammo.
Oddly most of these HK SMG armed guys thought US police were much better armed with pump shotguns and were saddened that I did not have one with me. As it was my Series 70 Mark IV .45ACP and S&W M19 six inch .357 were oo-ed and ah-ed over and handled reverently.
I found that both GIs and their NATO counter parts all thought someone else had better guns....though most NATO troops joked about us not having a real rifle and the Germans said the M-16A1 was only appropriate for women and children.
-kBob
The scenario was to approach an apartment where an old Bader Meinhof type was training some young Red Army Faction types with out attracting attention and then neutralizing the room.......oddly the polizi in the training problem did not identify themselves or call for surrender or disarming......different way of doing things
The MP5k was slung so that one could push forward with both grips and tighten the sling so as to have it act as something like a stock. I had difficulty in that individual targets were to be engaged with 7 to 8 rounds on full auto in a single burst, this being contray to my 2-4 round burst training, but when in Rome....At in the room ranges a single less than one second burst could be held on a military target.....but this did mean you effectively had a two shot weapon. I mentioned the engagement of vissable targets because part of the exercise solution was to engage either a closet door or couch with a full 15 round burst. No fooling. They were engaged with a figure eight sweep that seemed to actually hit the door at least 15 times and it would have been difficult to be in that closet and not hit. This technique was used in the Mogudishu (hey, I can not spell English give me a break)rescue by GSG9 and so these Germans thought it was the neatest thing since sliced bread.
Honestly I had issues with the difficulty in having to have your body aligned correctly to control the MP5k, but if you got everything in the right place it was impressive in a 9x19mm sort of way.
I was much more interested in the support guns their sharpshooters used and everyone, even the visitor, got to practice with, the MP5SD with heavy subsonic ammo.
Oddly most of these HK SMG armed guys thought US police were much better armed with pump shotguns and were saddened that I did not have one with me. As it was my Series 70 Mark IV .45ACP and S&W M19 six inch .357 were oo-ed and ah-ed over and handled reverently.
I found that both GIs and their NATO counter parts all thought someone else had better guns....though most NATO troops joked about us not having a real rifle and the Germans said the M-16A1 was only appropriate for women and children.
-kBob
USSR
Member
Not really. True carbines were always a MBR issued to certain troops, such as cavalry, who needed a rifle with a shorter barrel. The M1 Carbine was designed for and issued to troops who otherwise would either have had a sidearm or no weapon at all. It was never intended to be a MBR for offensive purposes, and was designed to indeed be a PDW.
Don
mdauben
Member
I guess I'm looking at function rather than intent. It might have been intended for the roles that are today filled by "true" PDWs, but functionally, IMO, the M1 is closer to the military M4 or civilian AR15 than it is to an FN P90. I suppose it could be argued that the M1 was an early attempt at a "PDW-ish" weapon that was still firmly rooted in its battle rifle origins.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
LOL! Free Elian!
(And no, the goggles aren't quite as spiffy as a ninja mask, but a nice touch!)
(And no, the goggles aren't quite as spiffy as a ninja mask, but a nice touch!)
jimmyraythomason
Member
True but one has to use what one has especially when going into such a dangerous situation.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Heh, things I've learned on the interwebs today. My 10" AR-5.7 is an underpowered piece of junk with terrible ballistics and slow time on target, so I'd be better off leaving it at home and driving my sidearm more.. Especially since if I don't use the happy switch, because all the go fast guys only leave their guns on Rock N Roll mode..
Sigh.
Sigh.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Holy cow! You learned all that? Just today? Amazing!
ClickClickD'oh
Member
I'm a fast learner.
Here's the deal, and I've noticed it a lot in this thread. Several people have said something to the likes of "without going SBR..." Well, Bull droppings. If it's not SBR, it's not a PDW. So, anyone talking PS90s or M1 Carbines really isn't talking PDWs, they're talking about something else.
Of course there are trade-offs with PDWs, their ballistic performance is inferior to full rifles (But then again so are SBR 5.56 carbines), but their ballistic performance is better than pistols of the same calibers. They can be slower than pistols depending on the sights used, so get a good eotech or holo sight... or if starting from the holster/hanging, so get that gun up and drive it. Yeah, most people aren't going to have to happy switch, but if you are just pulling the trigger once on a threat you are doing it wrong. If you can't put a half dozen overlapping holes in a target in quick order with a PDW, that just means you need more practice. Most PDWs have almost zero felt recoil. There's no issue with reacquiring the sights and bringing them back on target like there is with a pistol. Reset and squeeze are the only necessary operations. Not that swing speed and target acquisition speed are really necessary for civilian application... defending your home right? Why aren't you in your safe area pointing the gun at the entrance to said safe area? Clearing the house? Stop doing that stupid. That's what police are for. Hang out in your safe area with your gun of choice pointed at the entrance until police arrive. If something mean and ugly tries to come through the entrance unload the whole magazine at it.
Why a PDW instead of an AR for that? I like my ear drums.
Here's the deal, and I've noticed it a lot in this thread. Several people have said something to the likes of "without going SBR..." Well, Bull droppings. If it's not SBR, it's not a PDW. So, anyone talking PS90s or M1 Carbines really isn't talking PDWs, they're talking about something else.
Of course there are trade-offs with PDWs, their ballistic performance is inferior to full rifles (But then again so are SBR 5.56 carbines), but their ballistic performance is better than pistols of the same calibers. They can be slower than pistols depending on the sights used, so get a good eotech or holo sight... or if starting from the holster/hanging, so get that gun up and drive it. Yeah, most people aren't going to have to happy switch, but if you are just pulling the trigger once on a threat you are doing it wrong. If you can't put a half dozen overlapping holes in a target in quick order with a PDW, that just means you need more practice. Most PDWs have almost zero felt recoil. There's no issue with reacquiring the sights and bringing them back on target like there is with a pistol. Reset and squeeze are the only necessary operations. Not that swing speed and target acquisition speed are really necessary for civilian application... defending your home right? Why aren't you in your safe area pointing the gun at the entrance to said safe area? Clearing the house? Stop doing that stupid. That's what police are for. Hang out in your safe area with your gun of choice pointed at the entrance until police arrive. If something mean and ugly tries to come through the entrance unload the whole magazine at it.
Why a PDW instead of an AR for that? I like my ear drums.
We're all here just having an academic discussion about something that mildly entertains us but that will likely not impact any of our lives in a real sense.
Which is pretty much what 99% of all discussions on this board are.
To quote the words of a wise man... "Lighten up, Francis."
Which is pretty much what 99% of all discussions on this board are.
To quote the words of a wise man... "Lighten up, Francis."
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Been reluctant to jump in here but here goes.
If you are up on all the latest ballistics stuff, the general consensus is that pistol calibers are not effective or consistent anti personal rounds. They are a compromise between conceal ability and control ability. Pistol caliber carbines are only marginally better. Guns like the M1 carbine are somewhat better as are the mini rifle rounds/PDW type rounds.
It seems to me that a small lightweight carbine that shoots a rifle round is a better choice and as such the AR15/M4 type carbines have become very popular.Which is one of reasons they have largely replace sub guns as PDWs. An SBR version is pretty handy if you can possess one.
In my state, we can't have SBRs so the closest I can get is an AR pistol. Mine has 11.5" bbl and carbine buffer tube modified to not take a stock . That length of bbl doesn't lose too much velocity. I can shoot it from the shoulder using the tube. It is actually pretty accurate (2-3 MOA) and I've run it in three gun shoots pretty successfully. It is very handy to carry and I can carry it on my concealed pistol license. That means I can lay on the front seat of my car or down between the seats etc, etc. It is a choice between a carbine and pistol with better ballistics than a pistol and easier to carry than a carbine.
So yeah, that's my PDW. It is pretty much my truck gun and my go to HD weapon.
If you are up on all the latest ballistics stuff, the general consensus is that pistol calibers are not effective or consistent anti personal rounds. They are a compromise between conceal ability and control ability. Pistol caliber carbines are only marginally better. Guns like the M1 carbine are somewhat better as are the mini rifle rounds/PDW type rounds.
It seems to me that a small lightweight carbine that shoots a rifle round is a better choice and as such the AR15/M4 type carbines have become very popular.Which is one of reasons they have largely replace sub guns as PDWs. An SBR version is pretty handy if you can possess one.
In my state, we can't have SBRs so the closest I can get is an AR pistol. Mine has 11.5" bbl and carbine buffer tube modified to not take a stock . That length of bbl doesn't lose too much velocity. I can shoot it from the shoulder using the tube. It is actually pretty accurate (2-3 MOA) and I've run it in three gun shoots pretty successfully. It is very handy to carry and I can carry it on my concealed pistol license. That means I can lay on the front seat of my car or down between the seats etc, etc. It is a choice between a carbine and pistol with better ballistics than a pistol and easier to carry than a carbine.
So yeah, that's my PDW. It is pretty much my truck gun and my go to HD weapon.
C-grunt
Member
One point is that some of us would have to clear our houses in an invasion scenario as children live in other parts of the house.I'm a fast learner.
Here's the deal, and I've noticed it a lot in this thread. Several people have said something to the likes of "without going SBR..." Well, Bull droppings. If it's not SBR, it's not a PDW. So, anyone talking PS90s or M1 Carbines really isn't talking PDWs, they're talking about something else.
Of course there are trade-offs with PDWs, their ballistic performance is inferior to full rifles (But then again so are SBR 5.56 carbines), but their ballistic performance is better than pistols of the same calibers. They can be slower than pistols depending on the sights used, so get a good eotech or holo sight... or if starting from the holster/hanging, so get that gun up and drive it. Yeah, most people aren't going to have to happy switch, but if you are just pulling the trigger once on a threat you are doing it wrong. If you can't put a half dozen overlapping holes in a target in quick order with a PDW, that just means you need more practice. Most PDWs have almost zero felt recoil. There's no issue with reacquiring the sights and bringing them back on target like there is with a pistol. Reset and squeeze are the only necessary operations. Not that swing speed and target acquisition speed are really necessary for civilian application... defending your home right? Why aren't you in your safe area pointing the gun at the entrance to said safe area? Clearing the house? Stop doing that stupid. That's what police are for. Hang out in your safe area with your gun of choice pointed at the entrance until police arrive. If something mean and ugly tries to come through the entrance unload the whole magazine at it.
Why a PDW instead of an AR for that? I like my ear drums.
While Im not a firm believer in the 5.7 and 4.6 that doesn't mean Id feel undergunned with them. Gun fighting is a lot more about aim and tactics than ballistics (to a point).
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