PDW's... FN PS90, M1 Carbine, AR pistol or something else?

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I submit that 223 is excessive in this regard, based solely upon my first experiences wearing double-earpro at open-air gun ranges next to people with braked rifles sporting full length barrels.
That's largely due to the "braked" part. The loudest of all firearms are braked full-power rifles, and short-barreled revolvers firing high-pressure cartridges. The loudest gun I have ever had the displeasure of being next to on a range was a 14.5" barreled AR with a brake, but my 16" AR with a Vortex is more like my 9mm.

.223 out of an unbraked 16-18" barrel is about as loud as an 18" shotgun or a 4" 9mm, in terms of dBA.
 
There are quite a few technicalities and terms that are being discussed here. SBR, Caliber, Full-auto, Length, along with the term PDW itself.

I would assume most of us would really need to stick with the discussion of semiauto PDW's, or else why are we talking about them. We'd just call them machine guns (or Sub-guns for pistol calibers) eh?

I won't get into that debate, and just say that I would stick with a rifle caliber and Semi-auto. The 300BLK AR15 pistol suggested above would be a great choice. Ballistics similar to AK47 round in a compact package. Going NFA with a suppressor and stock would be even better, and barrel lengths between 8.5-10.5inches is ideal.

My second option is a Draco AK47 pistol with the 12inch barrel. This is my ideal personal setup for a non-NFA PDW that is more powerful than a pistol and has longer range. With a little practice, I can pick off soda cans at 40yards standing with my Draco. Downsides are muzzle flash and noise....
 
The problem with going stockless is just how long it takes to make a good shot. Defensive shooting has nothing to do with setting up carefully staged shots with the benefit of many seconds to prepare. A stocked rifle is optimized to give you enough stability to make a solid shot fairly quickly. A handgun is supremely fast on target and in transitions though harder to make long range hits with.

A stockless rifle or AR/AK pistols aren't the best of both worlds, or even somehow splitting the difference. I've set up stages in matches where we run those against true handguns (and of course, stocked rifles) and they simply appear to be a far distant [strike]third[/strike] fifth or sixth choice for any serious use.

YES, you can make a hit with them at 40, 50, or 100 yards. NO, you can't engage targets with them as quickly as you can with either a stocked rifle or a true pistol. And the difference is not even close. (Though adding a sling in tension helps ... a little.) This, of course, does not necessarily appear when one is going by how it "feels" or "seems" but when a timer and scored targets are used, there's no comparison.

They are fun range toys, if you enjoy the challenge, but defensive use isn't a game, plinking, or just messing around with fun guns. Use the gun you can PROVE to yourself you shoot fastest and most accurately.
 
.223 out of an unbraked 16-18" barrel is about as loud as an 18" shotgun or a 4" 9mm, in terms of dBA.
Is that in an enclosed space w/ reflections? I still don't understand how directing the blast forward (either w/ no brake or with a linear comp) diminishes the energy involved, or how the sound would be more or less "omnidirectional" in an indoor environment whatever the configuration. All I know is 9mm does not rattle my teeth (literally), and 223 does if any of the blast is directed/reflected at me.

I submit that a ported 357mag with 110gr ammo is excessively concussive in an indoor setting as well ;)

I personally am comfortable with "PDW" being a designation of a role, rather than a platform (like "sniper rifle" or "DMR"), but the NATO contract in the '80s kinda "branded" it as the sub-cal compact SMG we associate it with today. Maybe we can call FNH & HK's babies "The PDW," and all else "PDW's" (like Band-Aids :D)

How does a Draco pistol get better range than a "regular" pistol? Are you shooting it slung, or something (which is an ATF no-no, IIRC)? The iron sights and support are the same as a handgun, but it's so heavy that shaking will set in sooner :scrutiny:. Although, that weight does lend good stability (until the shaking sets in).

Sam1911, have you found that pistols tend to have better followup shot times than stocked 'equivalents'? It's (fairly) widely accepted that 9mm-class chamberings should be used with multiple hits to incapacitate targets (double/triple tap), so this could be an important factor just like acquisition/transition time in being effective. Whether one advantage or the other is more desirable, I'm honestly not qualified to say :D

TCB
 
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How does a Draco pistol get better range than a "regular" pistol?
Cartridge has higher velocity and flatter trajectory. You COULD set up a "sniper" shot, well rested, and make hits at long range probably a little easier than you could do the same thing with a service style handgun. So what? Who cares? What good would that do to anything we'd understand as a "defensive" shooting situation?

Are you shooting it slung, or something (which is an ATF no-no, IIRC)?
Absolutely no reason you can't shoot a pistol with a sling. You can't add a VERTICAL fore-grip. You can add a sling or an angular fore-grip. The sling, if used in tension, can help with stability. It is perhaps half as good as having a stock, minus the cheek weld. Some folks do indeed see a noticeable improvement shooting that way. I've done so myself. You'd still far and away be better off with a handgun OR a rifle, but it isn't as bad as it could be.

The iron sights and support are the same as a handgun, but it's so heavy that shaking will set in sooner . Although, that weight does lend good stability (until the shaking sets in).
The problem is it is a huge, heavy, ungainly "handgun." It transitions slowly, the sights are not nearly as good, nor as optimized for the purpose, as service handgun sights. You can't holster it, you'll be slow on the "draw," sights are slot to acquire, shot recovery time is slow, transitions are slow. The benefits it gives you -- the best of which is 10 rounds more in the magazine -- are not worth the costs.

They are range toys. Good for goofy yukks and plinking. They do not hold up to rigorous, measured, testing against other guns suitable to defensive tasks.
 
Thank's for your post on page 2 mac66. I've been wanting to hear from people who use Ar pistols with full length tubes on how happy they are with that setup. I'm building one right now specifically for a truck gun. Pulling out a tape measure I've found that I can fit one perfectly under my steering column.

For a setup like a truck gun I think the AR pistol with a full length tube is a good way to go. A friend of mine has one and it seems to shoulder really nice. I havn't shot it but it just seems a comfortable fit. People seem to knock em' but owners typically seem happy. I guess I'll see.

I havn't considered Sam1911's point about transition times pistol vs rifle before. I always just considered my pistol as a secondary, or useful only for concealed carry. It might be a testament to my lack of confidence in pistol shooting skills more than anything, but personally, I have a really hard time believing that I'm going to have better success with a pistol over a stocked weapon out any distance past arms length, but I guess I need to head out and compare my shooting.
 
I have a really hard time believing that I'm going to have better success with a pistol over a stocked weapon out any distance past arms length, but I guess I need to head out and compare my shooting.
It is entirely possible that you may not.

You do have to know your own strengths and weaknesses. If you shoot a pistol a couple of times a year, but put 5,000 rounds through your carbine in classes and practice and matches, this isn't going to be true for you. If you do the reverse, the reverse is likely.

My observations, and those of my pal, were based on people who shoot competitively and frequently with both handgun and carbine in "practical" settings.
 
Is that in an enclosed space w/ reflections?
I believe that's measured at the same distance from the muzzle, in both cases. An enclosed space will make both sounds louder, but by about the same amount, unless the reflectivity is considerably different at different frequencies.

I still don't understand how directing the blast forward (either w/ no brake or with a linear comp) diminishes the energy involved, or how the sound would be more or less "omnidirectional" in an indoor environment whatever the configuration.
I'm not sure what bearing this has on guns without comps or brakes?

The key determinant of loudness seems to be the gas pressure at the instant the bullet exits the muzzle. 9mm out of a 4" barrel and .223 out of a 16"-18" barrel are probably both running around the same pressure at that point (I think about 3000 psi but I'd have to look it up). Yes, the rifle runs quite a bit more chamber pressure, but it also has four times as much barrel length to reduce that pressure prior to muzzle exit.

I'm not exactly sure why braked guns are so much louder than unbraked guns of the same barrel length, but I assume it has to do with gas jet geometry; by splitting the primary gas jet into multiple subjets perpendicular to the bore, the gas probably dumps its energy faster, shortening the pressure pulse and thereby raising the amplitude. But that's total speculation on my part. Empirical measurement shows, however, that braked guns produce a far greater sound impulse than unbraked guns; it is not just a directional thing (a braked .223 will be louder than a flash-suppressed .223 in any direction).

Linear comps probably reduce perceived blast by focusing the gas jet downrange, thereby resulting in a longer (and therefore lower-amplitude) pressure pulse. There is undoubtedly some effect from putting the dissipation zone further from your ear as well, but I have never shot a gun with a linear comp so I can't really speak to that.

All I know is 9mm does not rattle my teeth (literally), and 223 does if any of the blast is directed/reflected at me.
What barrel length, and what configuration? A 14.5" military M4 is significantly louder than a 16" civilian AR, and a braked gun is louder than an unbraked gun.
 
9mm out of a 4" barrel and .223 out of a 16"-18" barrel are probably both running around the same pressure at that point

I agree they are probably roughly comparable (minute of ear-splitting :D). Unbraked AR with a full length barrel and a shortish 9mm? But apples to apples, we are talking PDWs/Carbines here, so for the slightly longer barrel of a PCC (usually 5-6") and the shorter barrel of an M4 or M4gery (14.5" or ~15.5" + flash hider, right?), the sound/blast levels will differentiate much more in practice. With a 10" AR "pistol," it's not even close (I've never heard a Glock set off car alarms, but a PLR at the local range does it with regularity ;) ).

16" in a 9mm is totally excessive (velocity is actually lost by going long enough to be legal), so I wonder if pressures aren't nearly ambient by the time the bullet squeaks out? Such a long barrel basically acts like an expansion chamber/linear comp, or even a silencer if you go long enough :p

I'm not sure what bearing this has on guns without comps or brakes?
That's my bad; I meant to say "or how the sound would not be omnidirectional" :D. What I mean is that in an interior setting, these loud noises will surround and engulf us so much that their directionality in an unrestricted setting will be moot. The obvious solution to the conundrum is to not force yourself to take a shot in a tight space or corridor, but whatever :D :p

Thread jack on muzzle devices (and their ability to make a loud gun into a quiet gun ;) )
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Overpressure doesn't behave like a normal pressurized gas stream, which tends to follow the course its momentum carries it on, fanning out into areas of lower pressure while decelerating. Overpressure is supersonic, and will expand in a roughly spherical bubble from wherever it is vented, the surface of which is a strong shockwave traveling faster than the speed of sound (detonation wave). As the pressure quickly equalizes from its expansion, the shockwave slows to the speed of sound and becomes a non-concussive sound wave. Muzzle devices can control the angle at which the bubble begins expanding relative to the bore, and in so doing direct the gas's overall momentum. But that bubble will still expand spherically and direct strong sound waves at the shooter (I don't think pistol or even 223-class rifle rounds have a big enough overpressure wave to engulf the shooter themselves :confused:).

revealing_covert_actions_02.jpg
(For some reason, I'm thinking this famous old photo is of a 30-06 :confused:)

I've always understood 'brakes' to vent the overpressure backward (at an angle) so it's slightly louder for the shooter, and gawdawful for anyone off to his sides :eek: --but recoil is reduced. The muzzle energy expands more in the direction of the shooter/bystanders, and arrives sooner, and therefore stronger.

Comps vent the overpressure upward or radially to hold down the muzzle, and are marginally louder to the shooter (not as much since the angle of blast is further forward, though), unless there is a steel roof overhead, at which point you receive the blast minus some loss from the reflection*. I associate comps with designs meant to combat muzzle rise rather than recoil. The sound still reaches the shooter, but the bubble can expand more --and dissipate more energy-- before it hits them.

"Cup type" linear comps essentially place a "blast shield" between the expanding overpressure and the shooter, focusing its energy forward. I've never quite understood the physics of how amplifying recoil force rearward keeps the muzzle down (unless your linear comp has a bias to the shape of its opening like any other vertical compensator), but the blast expansion is both directed entirely forward, and moved further from the shooter by the length of the comp. By the time the soundwave bubble hits the shooter, it has expanded as much as it can, and has lost the most energy we hear/feel as muzzle blast.

You also have linear comps which are basically silencers without baffles (I think) and holes punched in the forward side. Just like silencers, they allow the gas to expand inside a contained environment, where its energy is reflected and dissipated as turbulence, while slowly let out the smaller openings at the muzzle. Like silencers, they do a job of internally handling gas pressure, much as a locked breech does bolt thrust. However, they add length to the firearm, and are limited in blast reduction by their volumetric capacity. Not being silencers, they can't appreciably reduce sound levels, either.

All compensators that employ an expansion chamber will increase the duration of pressure on the bolt face, relative to the size of the chamber. Locked breech ARs can handle this additional duration better than marginal-bolt-weight blowbacks (though most BB bolts are heavier than needed). A device I'd like to see, if the ATF would have it, would be an integral linear compensator; port the barrel along its length into a chamber that is vented or entirely open at the muzzle end (and probably along its length to meet ATF regs). Properly designed, the overpressure bubbles would disrupt each other inside the tube and delay their propagation toward the exit, reducing felt overpressure and recoil with no additional barrel length.

Please correct me on any of this; it's merely a summary of how I've come to understand how these things to function. I'm always eager to learn more about this field (I'm an aerospace engineer, and high speed fluids is both a complex and unintuitive science)

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*Sheetrock is an excellent acoustic insulator/absorber --that's why we use it. A gunshot would probably be silent after passing through or reflecting off a mere handful of layers. But in a hallway setting like I describe, the single reflection won't be enough to even take the edge off a sound/shockwave, to say nothing of the overpressure (if the rifle is powerful enough for that to reach you)

TCB
 
YES, you can make a hit with them at 40, 50, or 100 yards. NO, you can't engage targets with them as quickly as you can with either a stocked rifle or a true pistol. And the difference is not even close. (Though adding a sling in tension helps ... a little.) This, of course, does not necessarily appear when one is going by how it "feels" or "seems" but when a timer and scored targets are used, there's no comparison.

They are fun range toys, if you enjoy the challenge, but defensive use isn't a game, plinking, or just messing around with fun guns. Use the gun you can PROVE to yourself you shoot fastest and most accurately.

Sam, the Draco is an AK47 style pistol which everyone knows to be a very reliable weapon. A SBR AR15 is a very accurate weapon as well, and can be reliable if quality parts are used.

We are not talking competition here (2gun, 3gun, etc). If someone has trained with their PDW setup they can be effective with it in close range under 100yards which is the purpose of the weapon to begin with. Why we are even comparing them to regular handguns is a moot point due to the handgun being lighter and more manueverable. If you are in a defensive position with proper cover, the speed difference is minimal. You are not trying to win medals here, your goal is to survive and eliminate the enemy.

The PDW with a rifle caliber in a proper barrel length is always more effective than a pistol caliber in a handgun. I don't know how you can beat a 7.62x39 with a 45ACP or even 10mm. Shooting ability and range will depend and vary on each individual based on their training. A PDW with longer iron sights or optic will be easier to shoot and more accurate at 50-100yards than a standard handgun.

Now its up to the individual if he wants to use a PDW or handgun when the need arises. I would also use a handgun if speed was necessary, but sometimes range and "stopping power" is more important.
 
Sam, the Draco is an AK47 style pistol which everyone knows to be a very reliable weapon. A SBR AR15 is a very accurate weapon as well, and can be reliable if quality parts are used.
No argument there! The problem isn't with the mechanics of the gun's internal bits. It is with the ergonomics of the human-weapon interface. Removing a stock from the equation makes a large gun unwieldy and unstable. Taking the concept of a handgun and making it large, heavy, and bulky in unusual directions ruins the speed and intuitive pointability of it.

As I said, it is getting a bit less than the worst of both worlds.

We are not talking competition here (2gun, 3gun, etc).
Oh heavens no! We're not talking about competition, where bringing a draco or AR pistol would be laughable, but where being slow and inaccurate with it will only lose you points and prizes. We're talking about LIFE AND DEATH defensive uses. Where the very best you possibly can be, even with the most optimal gun might still not quite be enough to save your life or that of a loved one. Why in the world would we say it is OK to choose the MOST difficult, LEAST optimized type of weapon for this MOST serious of purposes.

Heck, if you want to run your hand-rifle, go shoot in competition where it doesn't matter much that you'll be slower and have more misses than anyone else. Don't grab it in the moment when you must make FAST HITS or DIE.

If someone has trained with their PDW setup they can be effective with it in close range under 100yards which is the purpose of the weapon to begin with.
Effective? Relative to what? Defensive purposes are, unfortunately, a two way street. If you must shoot then there is a LETHAL threat that's bearing down on you NOW, trying to kill you. This is a very bad time to have your "kewl" gun that is ... you know, sort of accurate if you can take your time and set up the shot just so, with a good rest, and you hold your tongue just right ...

That's the time you must make the fastest possible accurate hits, period.

Why we are even comparing them to regular handguns is a moot point due to the handgun being lighter and more manueverable.
LOL! Uh, YUP. I'll agree with that.

If you are in a defensive position with proper cover, the speed difference is minimal.
No. No it isn't. If you've ever run scenario type training against a timer, you'd have seen that.

You are not trying to win medals here, your goal is to survive and eliminate the enemy.
Right. Because one is a lot more critical than the other. If you were only trying to win medals and your life was on the line, you could screw around with a pistol rifle and not be out any skin.

The PDW with a rifle caliber in a proper barrel length is always more effective than a pistol caliber in a handgun.
Well, that's somewhat debatable because we can't seem to decide what a PDW is. Most here would say a PDW can't be chambered in 7.62x39. But hey, 5.7 is just fine. So no, that's not more effective. But I think this is beside the point.

Shooting ability and range will depend and vary on each individual based on their training. A PDW with longer iron sights or optic will be easier to shoot and more accurate at 50-100yards than a standard handgun.
A REAL PDW with a stock will be. Not that I'm going to really get into whether a "defensive" situation is likely with an assailant at 50-100 yards away.

My point previously was actually quite in line with this. A STOCKED small rifle can easily be shot accurately more easily out past 30 yards or so.

A stockless wonder...well, as I said, a bit less than the worst of both worlds.

I would also use a handgun if speed was necessary, but sometimes range and "stopping power" is more important.
When is that, exactly? And how are you going to make that determination?
 
I don't know what the typical accuracy of a stockless AK is at 100 yards, but someone practiced with a semi-auto pistol can keep an entire magazine between the hips and the collarbones at that distance and probably half of that. A 9mm or .45 ACP round doesn't stop all forward motion and drop straight to the ground at 40 yards. It's still entirely capable of being accurate placed on a target farther away than that.

Now the question is, could you do that more quickly and more accurately with an AK pistol or a SIG P-229?
I honestly don't know.
 
No doubt you guys are familiar with the concept of a PDW - a Personal Defense Weapon. The M-1 Carbine was an early version... basically a long gun that you issue to people who don't have a front line role. Generally they have better range and accuracy than a handgun and are easier to train people to hit stuff with, but aren't quite a full-power rifle.

In the civilian world, do they do anything that can't be done as well or better with a semi-auto carbine?

What are the most useful non-SBR PDW's available today?
Some options I'm thinking would include a very light AR carbine, the M1 Carbine, the PS90, and an AR pistol with something like RRA's full-length buffer tube to add some extra stability.

http://rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=231

Any ideas?
My vote goes to the M1 carbine; mostly because I am familar with them from the old days, and I already have two of them.
 
The problem is it is a huge, heavy, ungainly "handgun." It transitions slowly, the sights are not nearly as good, nor as optimized for the purpose, as service handgun sights. You can't holster it, you'll be slow on the "draw," sights are slot to acquire, shot recovery time is slow, transitions are slow. The benefits it gives you -- the best of which is 10 rounds more in the magazine -- are not worth the costs.

I will agree with most of your assessment, except to say that the most notable advantage of a rifle-caliber handgun is not the small increase in magazine capacity, but the ballistics-namely the ability to defeat virtually any soft body armor or light cover.

We did some testing on 3/4" and 1" ballistic lexan. We used a variety of weapons, including .22LR, .22 Mag (handgun), 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .357 Mag, .45 ACP, 10mm and .44 magnum, as well as a .22 Hornet and a PLR-16 .223 pistol.

On the 3/4", only the hot 180 gr. 10mm FMJ and 240 gr .44 Mag hard casts got through.

On the 1", none of the handgun rounds penetrated fully. But the .22 Hornet rifle and .223 fired from the 9" PLR-16 zipped right through. Even when we backed it up to over 150 yards, the Hornet and .223 still had no trouble perforating the Lexan.

Done similar tests on steel, and 3/16" hot rolled mild plate easily stops all handgun rounds, including the hard cast .44 mag and 300 gr. FMJ .50 AE from a 6" Desert Eagle. But once again, the centerfire rifle rounds, even from short barrels and with expanding projectiles, poked neat little holes in the plates.

That said, I definitely agree that these short, stockless rifles are not optimal for defense. The PLR-16 is by far the lightest in that category of weapons at only 3.5 lbs, but still rather unwieldy. However, with a single-point sling and some practice, once can achieve accuracy similar to a stocked rifle from the off-hand position.

As for PDW, I would consider it any firearm that is 1) stocked, but compact, 2) not optimized for long-range engagements, but able to be used effectively beyond handgun range and 3) capable of defeating IIIA-type body armor or PASGT kevlar helmets. I don't feel that a miniature cartridge is part of the definition, and would consider many SBRs in the category of PDW. Select fire is an arguable requirement, though that completely nixes them for any of us who aren't SOT dealers/manufacturers or LEO.

I would consider my SBR AR to be a PDW-class weapon:

101_1779_zps36fe7140.jpg

I can say that I was able to run our little informal course a bit faster with this rifle than with my 16" AR. We had targets from 3 to 55 yards, and though the grouping wasn't quite as tight with the SBR, the target acquisition was notably quicker-especially up close.
 
When is that, exactly? And how are you going to make that determination?

I dunno, maybe when some derranged 250lb man is trying to kill you? There have been reports of people being shot with 45acp and still fighting back. The issue here is to put down the BG as fast as possible with the least amount of rounds (that amount would be one round ideally) before he kills you first. And not everyone can make head shots with a handgun, and not everyone falls dead when hit by a few pistol rounds.

Oh heavens no! We're not talking about competition, where bringing a draco or AR pistol would be laughable, but where being slow and inaccurate with it will only lose you points and prizes. We're talking about LIFE AND DEATH defensive uses. Where the very best you possibly can be, even with the most optimal gun might still not quite be enough to save your life or that of a loved one. Why in the world would we say it is OK to choose the MOST difficult, LEAST optimized type of weapon for this MOST serious of purposes.

Heck, if you want to run your hand-rifle, go shoot in competition where it doesn't matter much that you'll be slower and have more misses than anyone else. Don't grab it in the moment when you must make FAST HITS or DIE.

Again I mentioned you'd need to have a defensive position setup for this to matter, not when you are moving. Meaning, you have setup a defense perimeter with limited access to your position, not while you are in the open.

I dunno if you've actually trained or shot with an AR pistol that is properly setup, its actually quite easy to use and can be "fast" in the trained hands. Really the only thing that can make AK/AR pistol better is adding a stock. The added capacity of the AK/AR is much better too, I didn't see you mention that advantage with a handgun.

Not trying to argue with you. Each person should choose what they decide to train with weather pistol, rifle, or PDW. There are pro's and cons to each.
 
I dunno, maybe when some derranged 250lb man is trying to kill you? There have been reports of people being shot with 45acp and still fighting back. The issue here is to put down the BG as fast as possible with the least amount of rounds (that amount would be one round ideally) before he kills you first. And not everyone can make head shots with a handgun, and not everyone falls dead when hit by a few pistol rounds.
So you need to observe what kind of bad guy you're facing and then go get the right gun for the job?

And then, because he's a big 'un, you're going to make good hits FAST with the pistol-rifle?

Yeah, that dude may not immediately fall to one 9mm or .45ACP round. But a service style handgun lets you put those rounds on target 4-5 shots a second in aimed fire if you're good with the gun. This in the amount of time it will take you to get one round lined up with the pistol rifle, if you're VERY skilled with it. And there's no guarantee that he's going to vaporize when hit with a 5.56 or 7.62x39, either.

Again I mentioned you'd need to have a defensive position setup for this to matter, not when you are moving. Meaning, you have setup a defense perimeter with limited access to your position, not while you are in the open.
And I'm telling you that it really doesn't matter. You will be faster and more accurate with a handgun OR a long-gun from your defensive position, out in the open, or ANYWHERE ELSE.

As I said, get to a range, get a timer and discover this for yourself.

I dunno if you've actually trained or shot with an AR pistol that is properly setup,
Yes. Quite often.

its actually quite easy to use and can be "fast" in the trained hands.
No, no it isn't. It might SEEM 'fast' if you don't have anything to compare it to. If you've got anything on the ball with a handgun (or a real carbine) and a timer so you can't fib to yourself (;)) you'll quickly relegate the AR pistol to "fun gun" status and stop risking your life using it for self-defense.

Really the only thing that can make AK/AR pistol better is adding a stock.
No argument there! That is about the only thing that makes the concept salvageable.

The added capacity of the AK/AR is much better too, I didn't see you mention that advantage with a handgun.
Not terribly relevant. Not really relevant at all. First of all, I've got a 9mm handgun I can carry all day long that holds 20. So please don't tell me I need another 10 rounds in the mag to be properly defended. Or that that extra 10 rounds makes up for the terrible relative performance of the pistol-rifle in getting HITS. Especially when a pistol reload is about a second and a half. If I can't carve out a second and a half to top up after having landed 20 flippin' rounds? Well, I guess my day's gone pretty badly.

Considering how effectively those 20 rounds are likely to be aimed, and how rapidly delivered, there's no way I'm going to be thinking, "Gee, I wish I had an AR pistol instead..." They're slower on target, harder to aim, and the "benefits" are not useful.

Each person should choose what they decide to train with weather pistol, rifle, or PDW.
Sure. Any of those. But not the oddball pistol-rifles. They're just range toys. A very poor choice for defensive purposes.

For more background: We set up practical defensive scenarios frequently. (Six different scenarios every month.) Several times a year we bring out "alternative" weapons to shoot through our stages with. Most of the time some form of AR pistol, Draco, PLR or whatever pistol-rifle is included. They perform MISERABLY next to traditional sidearms and carbines. Not talking about subjective measures. Timers and scored hits. That really cuts to the chase of what works and what doesn't.

NO ONE has been able to show anything like a respectable performance using one of these stock-less guns. EVER.

The best analogy I can think of is a comparison between a sedan (handgun) and a pickup truck (carbine). Now take the tires off the rims of the pickup. Look, it holds SO much more than the sedan! And it sure is tougher. And it has a much more powerful engine. ... Unfortunately its basic ability to get the job done is grossly hampered by what you've removed. It no longer is able to even compete with the sedan in any meaningful way. Even hauling firewood, the sedan will get the job done better because the truck is so hamstrung by its inability to be operated efficiently.
 
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