Pet bond-why so many refused to leave NOLA

[Sindawe]

I saw Walt Disneys Lion king too. I too liked that song Circle of life, it had a catchy tune. ehhemmmm..... you do know that was just a cartoon and animals don't talk right?

Never saw the "Lion King" or any of its sequels. My knowledge of how nature works came from my studies in college, not cartoons.

But for a straight answer to your question... Easy the Puma its highest on the food chain.

Then what of the rabies virus, that "eats" the puma to ensure that it has progeny

 

[cuchulainn]

Nope, not any more. Fish and shrimp are just too darn tasty. Cannibalism is a horse of another, more complex, color.

Then you too practice this so-called "speciesism."

If all animals are of equal worth, then your ethics about eating must either:

A) Allow the eating of no animals whatsoever.

or

B) Allow the eating of any animals, including humans. That doesn't mean you must eat humans yourself, but it does mean that if you eat some animals, you can make absolutely no moral judgement about someone who slaughters and eats other humans.

So call me a "speciesist." I see a distinction between deer hunting and shooting another human for sport. I see a distinction between eating a cow and eating my neighbor's daughter.

 

[Moonclip]

Strange, people are talking about Noah but at the same time saying they would leave a man and save "Fluffybutt"!

I would say abortion and religion should not be discussed here but for someone to be talking about Noah, a Bible character, but at the same time saying they would do something as morally wrong as to let a man die to save a pet is amazing.

For those who attend church, I think it might be interesting to ask the clergy the question about Fluffybutt and a man drowning and see what their thoughts on that would be.

So those of you that go for Fluffybutt, you wouldn't mind then if I saved my aunts dog over you or your child in the same situation?

Dogs can be amazingly loyal, anyone ever hear the story about the Akita in Japan that waited for his master who died at work, at the train station for years until he died himself?

However as mentioned by another poster, they are pack animals and people are confusing some of that behavior with feeling of genuine human love. I've been there with losing a pet too.

When I was overseas in the military my dad gave away my dog and I never saw him again. Sad, yes I was but the dog was too much for my elderly grandmother to control when my father was not home and when it came between the dog and my families safety, there was no contest even if the risk was slight. It was a big dog and while friendly it would sometimes jump around too much in play and my dad did not want to risk it knocking down a frail old woman.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Me and my dog sat in the crosshairs of 3 hurricanes last year, the eye of which crossed directly over my house. Whether we survive or not, we do so together.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

George Graham Vest speaking:

"Gentlemen of the jury, the best friend a man has in this world may turn against him and become his enemy. His son or daughter whom he has reared with loving care may prove ungrateful. Those who are nearest and dearest to us -- those whom we trust with our happiness and good name -- may become traitors in their faith. The money that a man has he may lose. It flies away from him, perhaps when he needs it most. A man's reputation may be sacrificed in a moment of ill-considered action. The people who are prone to fall on their knees to do us honor when success is with us may be the first to throw the stone of malice when failure settles its cloud upon our heads. The one absolute, unselfish friend that man can have in this selfish world -- the one that never proves ungrateful or treacherous -- is his dog.

"Gentlemen of the jury, a man's dog stands by him in prosperity and poverty, in health and sickness. He will sleep on the cold ground, where the wintry winds blow, and the snow drives fiercely, if only he can be near his master's side. He will kiss the hand that has no food to offer; he will lick the wounds and sores that come in encounter with the roughness of the world. He guards the sleep of his pauper master as if he were a prince. When all other friends desert, he remains. When riches take wings and reputation falls to pieces, he is as constant in his love as the sun in its journey through the heavens.

"If fortune drives the master forth an outcast in the world, friendless and homeless, the faithful dog asks no higher privilege than that of accompanying him to guard against danger, to fight against his enemies. And when the last scene of all comes, and death takes the master in its embrace, and his body is laid away in the cold ground, no matter if all other friends pursue their way, there by his graveside will the noble dog be found, his head between his paws, his eyes sad but open in alert watchfulness, faithful and true even to death."

 

[WYO]

Let's have a little perspective here.

Would you sacrifice your pet snake to save Hillary Clinton?

Your pet rat to save Chuck Schumer?

Would you quit beating your dead horse to save Nancy Pelosi?

Without a second thought. Maybe I don't belong here.

 

[cuchulainn]

George Graham Vest speaking

Plenty of seemingly loyal dogs have turned on their owners. So much for Mr. Vest's appeal to emotion.

 

[scubie02]

I eat meat. I hunt. I would kill an animal to protect myself. However, I have no belief that humans are of inherently any more worth than an animal. Being willing to kill to protect your life or for food to live, is not at all the same thing in my mind as believing that I am somehow of more intrinsic value, if you see what I mean. I may protect my life because it has a certain value to me or because of instinct, but I do not feel I am "better" or of more worth than the animal I kill for food. Some people take some things the Bible says as meaning that Man is free to do whatever he wants to animals or the world. In a sense he does, as he has free will. Having the ABILITY to do something does not make it right, however, and I am not convinced that that is what the Bible was really saying when it said God gave man dominion over the earth. And regardless, with dominion also comes responsibility.

 

[joab]

Plenty of seemingly loyal dogs have turned on their owners.

Do you personally know of any cases.
I'm not talking about a guy who's dog ate his kid.
But one case where a healthy, well treated animal has turned on his primary caretaker.
Personally I have never witnessed or even heard of such a case.


Anybody here reminded of the Twilight Zone episode where the old man refused to go through the gates of heaven when they wouldn't let his dog in, only to find out later that those were actually some other gates and they welcomed his dog into the real gates.

As long as we're talking about movies and such

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Anybody here reminded of the Twilight Zone episode where the old man refused to go through the gates of heaven when they wouldn't let his dog in, only to find out later that those were actually some other gates and they welcomed his dog into the real gates.

It was titled The Hunt and was my all time favorite Twilight Zone.

 

[dmallind]

Heck I'd take my dog over most people regardless of politics. In fact one of the only two times in my life I've had a gun pointed at me in earnest was because I stepped in between it and my dog personally - let alone putting anyone else in that position. But that's not the issue

The idea of pets vs humans in evacuation is a canard. Can anybody point to where a pet took a place that would IN REALITY (not could potentially) have gone to a human in that pet's absence?

I certainly know of none. Now how many of those helicopters and buses that refused pets were absolutely full to the gills of humanity with not a few spare inches left? I suspect few indeed. You'd be surpised how little room even a large dog takes up if need be. Anything not huge I can keep within the same footprint I take up myself.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There is no comparison between a man's best friend and a stranger. Your best friend can indeed be another human being, or it could be a dog, but as between your best friend and a stranger, there should be no doubt which you'd attempt to save first. Your best friend would do the same for you. I know from experience.

When I was about nine I had a German Shepherd named Hiedi who ordinarily got along with other dogs very well, and didn't by any means ordinarily attack them. While I was waiting for the school bus a Great Dane (much bigger than my dog) came over to me and began making threatening sounds and postures towards me. My dog was occupying herself in the backyard, and must have smelled my fear (dogs can do that) and like a guided missile she covered a hundred yards in what seemed like a second and slammed into the Dane knocking him off his feet. She then chased him down the street with the most ferocious sounds any predator ever made. For all she knew, that dog was going to fight and kill her if she interfered with his fun, but that thought didn't cross her mind at the moment. It was in memory of this that I took a golf club to another German Shepherd ten years later. Hiedi was paralyzed from the waist down, and near death from old age (no one had the heart to have her put down), when another German Shepherd in his prime came into her yard and attacked her for no reason. Without hesitation, I grabbed whatever was handy and did for her what she had done for me ten years earlier. We were friends. That's what friends do.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Perspective II

Would anyone here risk his life to dive into a raging river and save Teddy Kennedy?

If you did, could you reasonably expect it would change his outlook on life and make him a better man? Do you think he'd invite you into his home, thank you and try and be a friend?

Sorry, I'm still sticking with Noah, Hawkeye's dog, and the critters.

 

[cuchulainn]

But one case where a healthy, well treated animal has turned on his primary caretaker.

If the caretaker doesn't assert himself as the indisputable alpha of the pack, a dog can turn on him, especially in more aggressive breeds.

Here's one example: http://www.houseofthedog.com/2004/10/when_good_dogs_.html

Dogs aren't loyal to individuals. They're loyal to the pack. However, within the pack, they will use violence to settle who's dominant and who's subordinate.

The Real Hawkeye thinks Heidi protected him out of love. She didn't. She was responding to a threat to the pack. In other words, she saw a threat to the pack as a threat to herself. Her attack on the Great Dane was an act of self defense, nothing more.

Heidi never attacked The Real Hawkeye because she feared his dominance, not because she respected or loved him.

 

[Cosmoline]

Would you sacrifice your pet snake to save Hillary Clinton?

Your pet rat to save Chuck Schumer?

If it was them or the rats, I'd get out the fava beans and have me some long pig for dinner

The space that a "pet" takes up is space that should have been used for another human being.

Why? In the real world a dog is useful, whereas a stranger is a threat.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

If the caretaker doesn't assert himself as the indisputable alpha of the pack, a dog can turn on him, especially in more aggressive breeds.

Here's one example: http://www.houseofthedog.com/2004/1...good_dogs_.html

Dogs aren't loyal to individuals. They're loyal to the pack. However, within the pack, they will use violence to settle who's dominant and who's subordinate.

The Real Hawkeye thinks Heidi protected him out of love. She didn't. She was responding to a threat to the pack. In other words, she saw a threat to the pack as a threat to herself. Her attack on the Great Dane was an act of self defense, nothing more.

Heidi never attacked The Real Hawkeye because she feared his dominance, not because she respected or loved him.

Your knowledge of the mental world of dogs is amazing. Tell us again how you know all this. Are you able to read dog minds?

I could also describe all of your behaviors as mere instinctive responses to environmental stimuli. Don't bother protesting. You just think you have a mind. In actuality, you are programmed by nature to believe that so you won't get depressed. Depressed people don't perpetuate the species as well as non-depressed people, thus the helpful fiction that you are actually sentient.

 

[Lemon328i]

Let's have a little perspective here.

Would you sacrifice your pet snake to save Hillary Clinton?

Your pet rat to save Chuck Schumer?

Would you quit beating your dead horse to save Nancy Pelosi?

I gotta go with Noah on this.

I don't see any human beings listed here, so no dilemma!

Seriously though, I will always put a human being's life (any human being, liberal or not) above that of an animal's. I would also put the life of a child above that of any adult's.

 

[Lemon328i]

Why? In the real world a dog is useful, whereas a stranger is a threat.

Some dogs are useful (German Shepherd, Border Collie, Pit Bull, etc), some are not (Shih-tzu, Chihuahua, Poodle, etc). All of them are lesser than a human being. A stranger MAY be a threat, but chances are they'd be too busy looting to bother to evacuate

 

[cuchulainn]

The Real Hawkeye,

The behavior and motivations of pack animals are well established science. It requires no mind reading on my part.

Any pack animal -- any -- will use violence to protect or obtain a place in the pack hierarchy. Heidi was capable of violence against you.

There's no need to get upset or angry at me for saying that. I know it hurts to think that what you thought was love wasn't love. But sorry, Heidi didn't love you. If at some point she thought she could have asserted herself as the alpha of your pack, she'd have turned on you.

However, most dogs don't turn on their masters because most humans do a good job of being alphas over dogs, even if they have no idea what they're doing. That's why we successfully domesticated them eons ago.

 

[cuchulainn]

are not (Shih-tzu, Chihuahua, Poodle, etc).

Poodles were bred as working dogs (for hunting) so qualify as useful.

No joke, they're supposed to be hunting dogs and those silly haircuts have to do with keeping their joints warm when swimming but otherwise cutting down on resistance between hair and water. Yes, hair. Poodles don't shed, so they have hair not fur.

 

[Cosmoline]

Some dogs are useful (German Shepherd, Border Collie, Pit Bull, etc), some are not (Shih-tzu, Chihuahua, Poodle, etc). All of them are lesser than a human being. A stranger MAY be a threat, but chances are they'd be too busy looting to bother to evacuate

That's true--some dogs are fairly useless. But even the toy breeds serve a purpose if they help keep family members calm. All strangers are presumptive threats, ESPECIALLY during a SHTF situation. It is always in the best interest of the family to keep the pets and leave the strangers, "human beings" though they may be. I see little value in the life of a stranger compared with the life of my pets.

 

[cuchulainn]

I see little value in the life of a stranger compared with the life of my pets.

I notice that no one took on Moonclip's question, which is a bit more difficult than mine -- would you be upset with me if I saved Fluffybutt and let you or your child die? Would you judge me or wonder about my priorities?

It's easy to talk about the greater importance of pets over strangers when you're the one doing the saving and some stranger floats to the bottom.

It's quite another matter when you're the stranger doing the croaking.

Pesky, pesky Golden Rule

 

[bigjim]

Ahhhh You see the problem, they have painted themselves in to corner and while they are not quite ready to admit talking out of thier collective a$$es they aren't willing to expose themselves as monsters.

So your not gonna get a answer to your question. At least not a direct one without a lot of wiggle words.

 

[jefnvk]

Without a second thought. Maybe I don't belong here.

Same thought here.

But when you get to the point where your animal takes resources from another person, is when I think it goes too far.

 

[Sindawe]

If all animals are of equal worth, then your ethics about eating must either:

A) Allow the eating of no animals whatsoever.

or

B) Allow the eating of any animals, including humans. That doesn't mean you must eat humans yourself, but it does mean that if you eat some animals, you can make absolutely no moral judgement about someone who slaughters and eats other humans.

BWAHAHAHAHHA Not even close cuchulainn, but thanks for playing.

would you be upset with me if I saved Fluffybutt and let you or your child die? Would you judge me or wonder about my priorities?

No, I would not. Life is transitory, and when its your time, its your time. If I, as a stranger, am passed over by someone who chooses their known animal pet over me, well thems just the breaks.