Pet bond-why so many refused to leave NOLA

[jefnvk]

No, I would not. Life is transitory, and when its your time, its your time. If I, as a stranger, am passed over by someone who chooses their known animal pet over me, well thems just the breaks.

So what if it is something different? Maybe it is grandma's silverwear, and that is all they have left to cling to to remind them of the past. What if it is a safe full of important (to them) documents? They may be attached to this stuff as much as someone is attached to their pet, should they be able take it as well?

Pets should not be rescued and given precious water and food until all the people are rescued and have their needs. If someone is dead set on taking their pets, they can sit there with their pets until the others are rescued.

 

[RealGun]

I have nothing but sympathy for people who lost pets during the disaster, but better them than another human being.

I can't help thinking that pets have more to offer in many cases.

 

[RealGun]

If someone is dead set on taking their pets, they can sit there with their pets until the others are rescued.

That's what they did. Actually I think they didn't ask to be rescued for fear of being forced to leave the pet.

They may be attached to this stuff as much as someone is attached to their pet, should they be able take it as well?

This sounds like you have never had a pet or been committed to its care. Equating attachment to inanimate objects to feelings toward pets is pretty cold.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

The Real Hawkeye,

The behavior and motivations of pack animals are well established science. It requires no mind reading on my part.

Internal mental worlds are hardly amenable to science. Only behaviors can be observed. We then speculate about mental worlds based on behavior. There are those who would describe all of your behaviors in similar fashion. You don't actually love your father. Instinct or simple self-motivated conditioning drives you to behaving as if you do towards him. Just saying something is scientific doesn't fly. When you are born into a household with dogs, and have never been without one by your side for 45 years, you know a lot more about the species than any scientist who has a blind spot to the personhood of individuals of this species.

Any pack animal -- any -- will use violence to protect or obtain a place in the pack hierarchy. Heidi was capable of violence against you.

And I am capable of violence against you. The question is why I don't act on it. You are speculating in that regard, since you only observe behaviors, and not the internal mental world of the animals. I am speculating too, but mine is based on being raised with dogs as companions. If you were also raised with dogs, you missed something, somehow.

There's no need to get upset or angry at me for saying that. I know it hurts to think that what you thought was love wasn't love. But sorry, Heidi didn't love you. If at some point she thought she could have asserted herself as the alpha of your pack, she'd have turned on you.

I am not upset at you. You don't warrent it. Yours is speculation, based on someone elses observations under sterile conditions. My views are based on personal observation and interaction over a lifetime.

However, most dogs don't turn on their masters because most humans do a good job of being alphas over dogs, even if they have no idea what they're doing. That's why we successfully domesticated them eons ago.

Again, speculation based on someone else's observations. If you don't realize that your dog enjoys your company, your problem is that your dog probably doesn't enjoy your company. That's as much as I need to know about you.

 

[cuchulainn]

Sidawe: BWAHAHAHAHHA Not even close cuchulainn, but thanks for playing.

Anyone can say "that's not so, neener neener." Please explain why it's not so. Otherwise, I'll assume you've admitted I'm right.

Sidawe: No, I would not. Life is transitory, and when its your time, its your time. If I, as a stranger, am passed over by someone who chooses their known animal pet over me, well thems just the breaks.

Yeah, I'm sure you'd just smile benignly at the love I have for my animal as you died. There'd be no rancor against me letting you die in place of my pet.

You know what though? I believe that if ever faced with the actual decision, that under the pressur of the moment all of you "pets are better that people" folk would make the right decision. You'd save the people and let your beloved animal die. You all are just posturing. You'd do the right thing.

 

[LadySmith]

I wouldn't leave my best friend no matter if they have 4 legs or 2... (CT)

+1

No pets /no guns = no evac. My choice. (Tory)

+1
As human beings, we're capable of making choices, and sometimes those choices are things we live and die by. In an emergency situation, I become my first priority. If I'm okay enough, I'll grab the cats, guns & gear on my way out. In rescue situations, those agencies were charged with saving people, not animals. I don't fault them for that. I don't fault the people who chose to stay with their animals either. It was their decision, not yours or mine. I'd try to take my critters with me simply because I love them. How they feel about me is unknown and irrelevant. That seemingly affectionate rubbing & purring might be their way of saying, "Please stop moving so that I can eat your face." It is how I feel about them that would influence me. Be it emotional, financial, time & effort-wise or whatever, they are investments that I am not willing to give up. People get attached to many things: pets, guns, photographs, and each other. That's our prerogative, that's the way it is and will always be no matter how much arguing or belittling is done about it.

 

[joab]

But one case where a healthy, well treated animal has turned on his primary caretaker.

My bad
Well care for includes well trained but should have been included for clarity.

But in all fairness you have no personal knowledge of the case you cited.

There could be so many unknown variables in the story, which basically agrees that the dog owner was at least somewhat at fault for the attack.

 

[71Commander]

You know what though? I believe that if ever faced with the actual decision, that under the pressur of the moment all of you "pets are better that people" folk would make the right decision. You'd save the people and let your beloved animal die. You all are just posturing. You'd do the right thing.

I wouldn't bet a human life on it. The human would lose.

Not every religion places the human above all other living spechies. In Buddhism, all living entities are equal.

 

[RealGun]

You know what though? I believe that if ever faced with the actual decision, that under the pressur of the moment all of you "pets are better that people" folk would make the right decision. You'd save the people and let your beloved animal die. You all are just posturing. You'd do the right thing.

You would save the stranger, but those who specified otherwise were probably serious.

 

[joab]

If given the choice of swimming 20 yards to save a human or swimming 20 yards to save some dog. I'm going for the human.

If given the same choice between my son and my dog I'm going for my son.

If given the choice between my dog and some human, I'll evaluate the situation

But then I'm a Buddhist leaning Catholic

 

[oct_97]

"I saw quite a few live feeds on CNN of CG and military helicopters allowing people to take pets in direct violation of their SOP to leave them behind. In one case you could actually hear the pilot say "Negative, negative" when the woman stranded on her roof wanted to take a small dog. Another crew member overruled that and simply allowed her to take the animal.

After this debacle, though, I wouldn't set foot on a public evac transport pets or no. Once you're in that system they *own* you."

That is not going to happen, no one, not even a senior officer, can overrule the Aircraft Commander (The pilot) in a military aircraft. That must have been another crew member overruled by the Pilot.

 

[cuchulainn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know you people think that you'd save Fluffybutt and steel yourselves against the screaming pleas and horrified face of a dying fellow human on the brink of death. You wouldn't. You'd save the human.

It's easy to sit in your cozy home and posture about "my dog is more important than some strange human." But you'd do the right thing. You wouldn't even think about it. You wouldn't evaluate the dilemma. You'd save the human before you knew what you'd done.

Fluffybutt would be gone, and some stranger would be thanking you.

I hope you never have to find out that I'm right. I hope you go to your grave thinking I'm wrong. I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone. But if it ever comes to you, you'll pick the human.

 

[cortez kid]

I wouldn't leave my pet. Not with a gun to my head. My dog/cat would get the first drink or bite to eat. I made that committment when I got them and I'll keep it. If I would give my life in defence of a flag(piece of cloth), then I can't see being ridiculed for giving it for my best buddy.
kid

 

[RealGun]

I hope you go to your grave thinking I'm wrong.

I'm sure I will. I appreciate your point, but I know what I would do.

 

[cuchulainn]

The Real Hawkeye: I am speculating too, but mine is based on being raised with dogs as companions. If you were also raised with dogs, you missed something, somehow.

Oh, I loved my dogs. I believed they loved me. I simply understand more than my anecdotal observations

The Real Hawkeye: Yours is speculation, based on someone elses observations under sterile conditions. My views are based on personal observation and interaction over a lifetime.

I'd hardly call the scientific consensus of thousands of people over more than a century -- including observations in the wild (non sterile conditions) -- speculation based on observation.

Pack animals are pack animals, including Heidi Their motivations are well studied. Belittling "sterile scientists" doesn't change this fact.

The Real Hawkeye: I am not upset at you. You don't warrent it.

And yet, you keep lashing out at me. Odd. -- <<If you don't realize that your dog enjoys your company, your problem is that your dog probably doesn't enjoy your company. That's as much as I need to know about you.>>

The idea that Heidi didn't really love you disturbs you to your core. But she didn't. She loved the pack and saw you as its leader, thus the most important creature in the world to her. But don't confuse affection for the alpha with love.

 

[cuchulainn]

RealGun: I appreciate your point, but I know what I would do.

Again, I hope you never find out that you're wrong.

 

[benEzra]

It should be pointed out that the choice in New Orleans was NOT whether to let an animal be saved in place of a human. The choice was whether let the human AND the animal live, or leave both of them to likely die. The authorities' choice was implicitly the latter, and they are out of touch with the way many people feel about their pets.

The fact that many of you DISAGREE with the way people feel about their pets does not change the fact that they do, in fact, feel that way, and will refuse to evacuate if it means leaving their pets to die. Recognizing and addressing this is important in any evac plan, and ignoring it won't change a thing.

 

[joab]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know you people think that you'd save Fluffybutt and steel yourselves against the screaming pleas and horrified face of a dying fellow human on the brink of death. You wouldn't. You'd save the human.

It's easy to sit in your cozy home and posture about "my dog is more important than some strange human." But you'd do the right thing. You wouldn't even think about it. You wouldn't evaluate the dilemma. You'd save the human before you knew what you'd done.

And you know this because you know me so well?

You deal with as many people as I do on a daily basis and deal with their self imposed helplessness.
When they discuss their lives from a position of being just a little better than you, you see what they really live like, hear what they really think about their worthiness as opposed to those other people's worthiness, see how they treat their neighbors and kids and what they really think about them when their backs are turned.

Then you would probably choose FluffyButt over the stranger also.

 

[joab]

It should be pointed out that the choice in New Orleans was NOT whether to let an animal be saved in place of a human. The choice was whether let the human AND the animal live, or leave both of them to likely die. The authorities' choice was implicitly the latter, and they are out of touch with the way many people feel about their pets.

Yeah I know and I started to post this same sentiment, but sometimes these threads take off in an interesting direction of their own

 

[71Commander]

cuchulainn

It's easy to sit in your cozy home and posture about how you would "Do the right thing" and select the human over the pet. You sure are strong in your convictions assuming(sic) that everyone shares your ethos, but it is not the case. I would no more think about a person that I abandoned for my dog, than I would about any other person that got caught up in a disaster. It's unfortunate but Sin loi.

I don't hold with long held beliefs that human life is sacred. Human life is cheap. Something to be relished and savored, but cheap none the less.

 

[cuchulainn]

BenEzra: It should be pointed out that the choice in New Orleans was NOT whether to let an animal be saved in place of a human.

Yes, but then people started talking about how animals are better than people. Thus some of us asked some ethical questions about that.

joab: Then you would probably choose FluffyButt over the stranger also.

Misanthropy sometimes can be a comforting emotional refuge. But it's not real. There are no misantropes when a fellow human is in danger.

The funny thing is that your disgust at other people expressing disregard for fellow humans' lives has led you to express disregard for fellow humans' lives.

You've become what you hate.

If you really hated what they say, you'd say you'd save them if they needed it.

 

[RealGun]

Again, I hope you never find out that you're wrong.

Let me put it this way. If you tried to stop me from saving my dog, I'd have to kill you.

 

[cuchulainn]

RealGun: If you tried to stop me from saving my dog, I'd have to kill you.

What does that have to do with anything besides posturing?

Me stopping you assumes I'm there too. It would be silly for me to spend my energy forcing you to save Mr. X over your dog, when I could just save Mr. X myself. If there were two of us there, there'd be no dilemma. We each could go after one of those needing saving. I'd be a pretty low, do-nothing, wimpy scumbucket if I stood on the shore screaming at you to choose while I kept my shoes dry, choosing neither.

 

[RealGun]

What does that have to do with anything besides posturing?

Argumentative. Determined to have the last word. Knock your self out. Bye.

 

[cuchulainn]

Argumentative. Determined to have the last word. Knock your self out. Bye.

What are you talking about? I thought we were having a discussion. You made a statement, and I responded to it.

If you don't feel like talking about it anymore, then stop. I don't care.

But don't try to get out by suddenly pretending that my repsonding to your statements is somehow out of line.