Pet bond-why so many refused to leave NOLA

[Sindawe]

Please explain why it's not so. Otherwise, I'll assume you've admitted I'm right.

Frankly, I have ZERO interest in discussing my personal ethos beyond what we've done here. Myself and others have shown you the path, but if you cannot reach understanding of another on your own, I doubt you will understand even if its laid plain at your feet. Assume what you will, if it makes you happy and validates your own world view as superior. It diminishes me not at all.

You all are just posturing. You'd do the right thing.

Then you had best hope and work to never being in such a position, least you receive one final and quite rude surprise from reality.

 

[joab]

Misanthropy sometimes can be a comforting emotional refuge. But it's not real. There are no misantropes when a fellow human is in danger.

The funny thing is that your disgust at other people expressing disregard for fellow humans' lives has led you to express disregard for fellow humans' lives.

You've become what you hate.

If you really hated what they say, you'd say you'd save them if they needed it.

Where have I said I hated humans or felt any disgust for the people I deal with?
I have just seen past the veneer in civilized times and have no delusions of what they are capable or incapable of in hard times.

And who says I need an emotional refuge.
I am secure in my beliefs and see no reason to project them on others, you cannot say the same.
Maybe this universal philanthropy that you assume on others is merely your emotional refuge from the real world where people have very differing value systems and cannot be fit into your convenient little box.

At least if I saved the dog I wouldn't have to risk any sermons

 

[joab]

Me stopping you assumes I'm there too. It would be silly for me to spend my energy forcing you to save Mr. X over your dog, when I could just save Mr. X myself. If there were two of us there, there'd be no dilemma. We each could go after one of those needing saving. I'd be a pretty low, do-nothing, wimpy scumbucket if I stood on the shore screaming at you to choose while I kept my shoes dry, choosing neither.

I think you missed the point.
Would the pilot of the chopper be a wimpy dry shoe scumbucket
Or how about the guy on the string coming down to assist you off the roof.
Or the cop at your house trying to force you to evac and leave the dog behind.

I believe the you in the statement was an in general you, not the you you

 

[jefnvk]

Equating attachment to inanimate objects to feelings toward pets is pretty cold.

And placing more value on an animal's life than a person's life is just as cold.

I have had plenty of pets. Some cats that have lasted upwards of half my life. Yes, they are always around. No, they would never betray you. yes, i would cry a little when one died. But no, they are not people's eqal.

 

[XLMiguel]

I don't know, to me, some animals ae more important than some people. There's a lot of truth in what DeGaulle said - "The more I know people, the better I like dogs." Then again, there are a lot of times when I'm embarassed to part of the 'human' race, go figure.

 

[Sindawe]

My apologies to CT beforehand for the thread drift.

And placing more value on an animal's life than a person's life is just as cold.

OK, lets take the animal/pet aspect out of the problem. I'm curious as to how those who go for the stanger first will react.

Same raging flood. Only this time there are two people in the water, and you can save only one.

Person A: Internationally recognized biochemist. Nobel laureate who's been getting all kinds of press for the ground breaking work she is doing that has already cured one form of aggressive cancer, and is on the cusp of greater things. If she dies, the breakthroughs end.

Person B: Little Jimmy Smith from down the street. Nice kid, kind to animals and little old ladies (baring the time he TPd the neighbors house). He's been getting high marks in school and goes to church every sunday.

You can save only one. Which one is it, and why?

 

[joab]

You can save only one. Which one is it, and why?

We did a similar exercise in High School.

You save the Biochemist because she has more to offer in the rebuilding of the human race.
And even if she's ugly she can make more little Jimmys


I said it was similar,
I also said it was high school

 

[AirForceShooter]

I always liked the bumper sticker that read:

"My Wife maybe"
"my Dog, never"

kinda says it all.

there's a whole lot of wisdom on bumper stickers and t-shirts.

AFS

 

[cuchulainn]

Whether I'd choose Little Jimmy or the biochemist, Fluffybutt remains less valuable than humans.

The relative value that we place on different people doesn't change the lesser value of animals. Those are independent and mutually exclusive questions -- the answer to one does not effect the answer to the other.

Have a nice weekend guys. I'm off to spend some quality time with a bunch of human beings.

 

[Cosmoline]

The funny thing is that your disgust at other people expressing disregard for fellow humans' lives has led you to express disregard for fellow humans' lives.

It has nothing to do with being a misanthrope. In a time of civil unrest or natural disaster, EVERY STRANGER IS A POTENTIAL THREAT. It's one thing to help someone out of imminent danger. It's quite another to start tossing your own pets and possessions overboard to make space for them. The first priority is for you and yours--not for outsiders. If your own people are safe, then you can go back and be a hero. But letting total strangers into your car to help them at the expense of your trusted dog is not only cruel but patently insane. You may well end up robbed or worse, much worse. People cannot be trusted in the best of times. When it hits the fan, you need to be even more careful.

 

[fastbolt]

I grew up with dogs. Lived with them and loved them. Got bit by them, too.

I haven't owned any during 30 years of marriage because of my wife's allergies to them (and cats), but I understand how easily and deeply folks bond with their pets. My wife grew up with an outside cat, too.

My children grew up with an assortment of birds, a rabbit (which lived for an amazing 11 years), and briefly, a kitten which we found stranded & entangled in a heavy spider web in our bushes one morning ... that's how little it was at the time ... which soonafter died from diabetes, according to the vet (after an unsurprisingly expensive monetary investment). The kids felt better about the picture postcard of the animal cemetary the vet provided, however ... My brother was later a bit annoyed by my having the vet euthanize the kitten, since he said he always had room for another rabbit-sized 'feeder' animal for his large snakes. (Snake people are an odd bunch, all things considered ) ...

Hey, once I even paid $35 to have a vet "splint" the broken foot of a canary ... using a cotton ball and a piece of tape. :banghead:

I'm not someone who thinks animals are furry people, however. Not by a long shot. Especially not when human lives are at immediate risk. Not ever.

It's not unreasonable or unexpected to consider that sometimes in a disaster a 'triage' mentality may be necessary, but not well understand ... let alone accepted ... by the general public in many circumstances.

I feel what I consider to be a normal, healthy responsibility to take reasonable steps to protect and humanely treat animals with dignity, especially because of humanity's control over them, and their habitats, for the most part.

I understand the bond a child especially often feels for any pet, regardless of its position in the animal kingdom (I cried in private when my horned toad died when I was young). It can be heartbreaking to observe a child lose a pet, but my children (even grown) ... and everyone else's children, for that matter ... are more precious to me than all the animals in the world.

I will not consider unreasonably endangering the life of either myself, or another human being, for the sake of an animal.

 

[Biker]

I've not read the entire thread, but if I have to leave my dogs behind, I ain't goin', end of story.
Biker

 

[Sungun09]

Its a Dogs life

My Wife yes, my dog, maybe, my gun, NEVER

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Cuchulainn: The idea that Heidi didn't really love you disturbs you to your core.

Since this is not in doubt as for me, it doesn't disturb me to the core or otherwise.

But she didn't. She loved the pack and saw you as its leader

Since I was nine at the time, this is unlikely. She probably saw my father as the alpha male in our pack. I have no doubt, as well, that had the Dane been instead a grizzly, her reaction would have been exactly the same, and she would have become permanently three years old as a result. This happens regularly in the real world. There are books containing nothing but such witnessed accounts.

, thus the most important creature in the world to her. But don't confuse affection for the alpha with love.

Again, I was hardly the alpha at nine years old. Your theory makes little sense since it asserts that her behavior was self serving. If that were the case, she might attack single-handedly a dog that she could expect to defeat, but not one which was about twice her own size, let alone a grizzly bear.

Now you keep saying that we'd do the right thing. The right thing to you might not be the right thing to us, however. I don't see it as the right thing to dump a good and trusting friend into a certain death in order to save a perfect stranger. When you take on a dog, you also take on the obligation to protect him from harm. I have no unspoken contract to protect perfect strangers, so there would be no contest there, and not a moment's hesitation in my choice.

As for Real Gun's point, I hope he doesn't mind if I clarify it for you, since you seem to have missed it completely. His point was that not only would he not choose a stranger over his dog, he would kill a stranger if he interfered with the rescue of his dog. In other words, he goes farther than your hypothetical, thereby making quite clear what he would do in your hypothetical. To him, a friend (regardless of species) has priority over a stranger (regardless of species). You have certain obligations towards your friends, especially friends who depend on you and trust you to do only what is best for them. To do otherwise is something less than honorable, in my opinion.

 

[CentralTexas]

.

I'm sad for the non-dog people that don't get it and haven't experienced it.
To co-exsist with a dog and know they play, love, enjoy your company, dream and have nightmares is apparent. If you haven't experienced a dog grieve over a human or another dog or hang out with you when you are ill you won't understand they are linked to humans as no other. I posted this in another thread but in case you missed it-(and one for the Old Yeller crowd...)
CT
Lakota Native Legend

When the world was created, First Man and First Woman struggled to stay
alive and warm through the first winter. First Dog struggled also.

Deep in the winter, First Dog gave birth to her pups. Each night, she
huddled in the brush of the forest, longingly watching the fire which kept
First Man and First Woman warm.

First Winter was severe, so cold that First Dog dared not leave her pups
to search for food to fill her own belly, fearing that her pups would freeze
to death in her absence. She curled around them, but the wind was bitter. Her
belly shrank with hunger, and soon she had no milk. The smallest pup
perished, and First Dog felt her own life draining away as she struggled
to care for the remaining pups. Fearing for the fate of the others, she knew
she had no choice but to approach the fire and ask First Woman and First
Man to share their food and the fire's warmth.

Slowly, she crept to the fire and spoke to First Woman who was heavy with
child. "I am a mother," said First Dog, "and soon you will be a mother
too.
I want my little ones to survive, just as you will want your little one to
survive. So I will ask you to make a pact."

First Woman and First Man listened. "I am about to die. Take my pups. You
will raise them and call them Dog. They will be your guardians. They will
alert you to danger, keep you warm, guard your camp, and even lay down
their life to protect your life and the lives of your children. They will be
companions to you and all your generations, never leaving your side,
as long as Mankind shall survive. In return, you will share your food and bring them inside for companionship and
the warmth of your fire. You will treat my children with love and
kindness, and tend to them if they become ill, just as if they were born from your
own belly. And if they are in pain, you will take a sharp knife to their
throat and end their misery. In exchange for this, you will have the loyalty of
my children and their offspring until the end of time."

First Man and First Woman agreed. First Dog went to her nest in the brush,
and with the last of her strength, one by one, she brought her pups to the
fire. As she did so, First Woman gave birth to First Child, wrapped her in
Rabbit skins, and nestled First Child among the pups by the fireside.
First Dog lay down by the fire, licked her pups, then walked away to die under
the stars.

Before she disappeared into the darkness, she turned and spoke once more
to First Man, "My children will honor the pact for all generations. But if
Man breaks this pact, if you or your children's children deny even one Dog
food, warmth, a kind word or a merciful end, your generations will be plagued
with war, hunger, and disease, and so shall this remain until the pact is
honored again by all Mankind." With this, First Dog entered the night and returned in spirit to the Creator.
-----------------------
How Could You

Written By: Jim Willis

When I was a puppy, I entertained you with my antics and made you laugh. You called me your child, and despite a number of chewed shoes and a couple of murdered throw pillows, I became your best friend.

Whenever I was "bad," you'd shake your finger at me and ask "How could you?" -- but then you'd relent and roll me over for a belly rub.

My housebreaking took a little longer than expected, because you were terribly busy, but we worked on that together. I remember those nights of nuzzling you in bed and listening to your confidences and secret dreams, and I believed that life could not be any more perfect.

We went for long walks and runs in the park, car rides, stops for ice cream (I only got the cone because "ice cream is bad for dogs" you said), and I took long naps in the sun waiting for you to come home at the end of the day.

Gradually, you began spending more time at work and on your career, and more time searching for a human mate. I waited for you patiently, comforted you through heartbreaks and disappointments, never chided you about bad decisions, and romped with glee at your homecomings, and when you fell in love.

She, now your wife, is not a "dog person" -- still I welcomed her into our home, tried to show her affection, and obeyed her. I was happy because you were happy.

Then the human babies came along and I shared your excitement. I was fascinated by their pinkness, how they smelled, and I wanted to mother them, too. Only she and you worried that I might hurt them, and I spent most of my time banished to another room, or to a dog crate. Oh, how I wanted to love them, but I became a prisoner.

As they began to grow, I became their friend. They clung to my fur and pulled themselves up on wobbly legs, poked fingers in my eyes, investigated my ears, and gave me kisses on my nose. I loved everything about them and their touch -- because your touch was now so infrequent -- and I would've defended them with my life if need be. I would sneak into their beds and listen to their worries and secret dreams, and together we waited for the sound of your car in the driveway.

There had been a time, when others asked you if you had a dog, that you produced a photo of me from your wallet and told them stories about me. These past few years, you just answered "yes" and changed the subject. I had gone from being "your dog" to "just a dog," and you resented every expenditure on my behalf.

Now, you have a new career opportunity in another city, and you and they will be moving to an apartment that does not allow pets. You've made the right decision for your "family," but there was a time when I was your only family.

I was excited about the car ride until we arrived at the animal shelter. It smelled of dogs and cats, of fear, of hopelessness. You filled out the paperwork and said "I know you will find a good home for her." They shrugged and gave you a pained look. They understand the realities facing a middle-aged dog, even one with "papers."

You had to pry your son's fingers loose from my collar as he screamed, "No, Daddy! Please don't let them take my dog!" And I worried for him, and what lessons you had just taught him about friendship and loyalty, about love and responsibility, and about respect for all life.

You gave me a good-bye pat on the head, avoided my eyes, and politely refused to take my collar and leash with you. You had a deadline to meet and now I have one, too. After you left, the two nice ladies said you probably knew about your upcoming move months ago and made no attempt to find me another good home. They shook their heads and asked "How could you?"

They are as attentive to us here in the shelter as their busy schedules allow. They feed us, of course, but I lost my appetite days ago.

At first, whenever anyone passed my pen, I rushed to the front, hoping it was you that you had changed your mind -- that this was all a bad dream... or I hoped it would at least be someone who cared, anyone who might save me.

When I realized I could not compete with the frolicking for attention of happy puppies, oblivious to their own fate, I retreated to a far corner and waited. I heard her footsteps as she came for me at the end of the day, and I padded along the aisle after her to a separate room. A blissfully quiet room.

She placed me on the table and rubbed my ears, and told me not to worry. My heart pounded in anticipation of what was to come, but there was also a sense of relief. The prisoner of love had run out of days.

As is my nature, I was more concerned about her. The burden which she bears weighs heavily on her, and I know that, the same way I knew your every mood.

She gently placed a tourniquet around my foreleg as a tear ran down her cheek. I licked her hand in the same way I used to comfort you so many years ago.

She expertly slid the hypodermic needle into my vein. As I felt the sting and the cool liquid coursing through my body, I lay down sleepily, looked into her kind eyes and murmured "How could you?"

Perhaps because she understood my dogspeak, she said "I'm so sorry." She hugged me, and hurriedly explained it was her job to make sure I went to a better place, where I wouldn't be ignored or abused or abandoned, or have to fend for myself --a place of love and light so very different from this earthly place.

And with my last bit of energy, I tried to convey to her with a thump of my tail that my "How could you?" was not directed at her. It was directed at you, My Beloved Master, I was thinking of you. I will think of you and wait for you forever. May everyone in your life continue to show you so much loyalty as I did.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Obviously two distinct groups here- it's questions like this that you find out what is in your soul- I will not abandon the helpless, animal or human-

 

[71Commander]

CentralTexas

What a heart breaker. Glad I read it.

 

[Bob41081]

I just saw on the 6 PM news a blind man get his seeing- eye dog back. When the man was evacuated they made him leave the dog. Someone in Houston made some phone calls and a NG patrol went to the man's house which was a wreck. The dog was there. The dog is an old lab,over 1/2 of his muzzle is white. They said the dog was dehydrated, with a few other problems but other wise OK. You could really see the love between them when the dog saw his friend and ran to him. I do believe in Miracles.

Bob

 

[kart racer]

I'm not a peta type by any means-not a real big fan of cats,but if anyone could look into my lab's eyes and tell me he doesn't haven't feelings towards my family and me is wrong.I believe in the hiearchy theory of pack animals,but I also know from experience that the dogs I have had would do what ever they had to,to protect their family.When a family member was sick,they were sad and laid w/that person until well,wouldn't eat until they did.If put in the position to decide between my dogs and a person,I better know the person and like them..

 

[Lonestar.45]

If it was between surviving and giving up my dog, sure I'd give up my dog no question-my son deserves to have a father as he grows up.
However.....if it was between me getting on the chopper with my family, or putting them on it and staying on a rooftop for several more days eating Powerbars and canned tuna in order to save my dog and waiting for the water to recede or finding a way out myself...well, I'd be staying.
I wouldn't put my dogs life above that of my family or any person, for that matter, but I like to think I'd be sharp enough and mentally prepared enough to get them ALL out of the situation without having to make those choices.
Fact is, my dog is more loyal to me than 99.9% of any humans on this earth, and I'd go to some extreme lengths to save her, as she would for me. But the line is drawn if it's me or her. That's it.

 

[Johnny_Yuma]

I've said it before:

The cat rides with me and the CAR-15!

Seriously, I've got weeks worth of water, food, vitamins, ammo, and pet food. Why leave my buddies?

 

[dpesec]

Texas,
Good post. I took care of my labs even when they had diabetes. They got their shots 2x day, no questions asked. IThere was never a thought of putting them down. One died because of complications, the other lasted about a year later. I picked up a compainion for her.
I agree with other, I know about the pack order, but the new dog, a large German Shorthair Pointer, watched over her quided her, and made sure he directed he to her food and water each day. Pack mentality would indicate he would heave her to die.
She had a stroke one morning and I had to put her down. Hardest thing I ever did.
I too have spent more money on animals then the purchase price or a replacement. My question is how much is a life worth? To me all life is precious. I will defend any life with every fiber I have.

 

[scubie02]

I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, because there seemed no point. Some of you can go on with diatribes about how you are just right and people are worth more than humans baaa baaa...you are a bad person for thinking otherwise baaa baaa...if it makes you feel better pretending to be an internet "authority" barbarbar...

But I do have to comment on the "your dog only defended you and attacked the other dog because that's pack behavior, your pets work only on instinct blah blah" crap.

Here's what i KNOW about that from experience, not what somebody in Psych 101 at the junior college I went to told me...

I know some gentleman who are very big into hunting coyotes. These are not the little 35 pound wimpy western coyotes who tend to be more timid and solitary animals, they are the NY Adirondack style coyotes that are pack animals and genetic studies have shown to be some sort of canadian red wolf hybrid deal. A local taxidermist had two of them in one time when we were there that were over 85 lbs. They look like wolves. They act likes wolves. Like I said, genetic studies have shown them to be wolves. Thats pretty much the ultimate pack animal, and the one that supposedly all our dogs are descended from. Now the guys that hunt these animals use dogs. The funny thing is, when they get on some coyotes and send in the dogs, the often times large packs of coyotes, who could stand together and take on the dogs, take off "every man for themselves" at some point. If there were two, one of them wouldn't come running back to "defend the pack" as cuchulainn or whoever it was suggested was the cause for one poster's dog coming to defend him from the other dog. Your assertion that this is how "pack behavior" works and explains the dog's behavior is, well, shall we say "somewhat lacking" based on my experience of how pack behavior works in wolves. What's more, I also own several cats. There is no "pack behavior" in cats--in nature they are solitary creatures. Yet strangely they would seem to behave in "pack behavior" too since thats your explanation for why animals show any "affection" for us. Od.d' Now, might there be certain things that they do that are governed by instinct? Sure. Kind of like a knee jerk reaction that is genetically programmed into a human most likely to "save their own type". Of course, it might be argued that a higher level being might learn from experience, realize that an animal might well have much more value to them then some idiot is likely to have, and learn to overcome simple genetic programming...

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Like Scubie, I have never denied instinct in dogs. They certainly have a preprogrammed pack mentality, as we have a preprogrammed family unit mentality. But these are mere templates on which everything else is superimposed. This template does not make a dog a thoughtless automaton. Anyone who has been raised in their company, if they have any sensitivity at all, realizes that they have all the same kinds of feelings and attachments that humans are capable of. You cannot miss it, unless you are a dedicated Cartesian, and willfully refuse to see it.

Here is a good article on this subject for anyone who is interested in reading it.

Social Order and Animal Consciousness

Porsha Gaughen

There is nothing new about the uncanny abilities of animals. People have noticed them for centuries. Millions of pet owners and pet trainers today have experienced them personally. But at the same time, many people feel they have to deny these abilities or trivialize them. They are ignored by institutional science. Pets are the animals we know best, but their most surprising and intriguing behavior is treated as of no real interest. Why should this be so, and what about the implications of animal consciousness and intelligence through the behavior observed by those with close relations to animals?

One reason for institutional science’s lack of interest is a taboo against taking ‘pets’ seriously. This taboo is not confined to scientist but is a result of the split attitudes to animals expressed in our society as a whole. During working hours we commit ourselves to economic progress fueled by science and technology and based on the mechanistic view of life. This view, dating back to the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century, derives form René Descarte’s theory of the universe as a machine. Though the metaphors have changed (from the brain as a hydraulic machine in Descarte’s time), life is still thought of in terms of machinery. Animals and plants are seen as genetically programmed automata.

Meanwhile, back at home, we have our pets. Pets are in a different category from other animals. Pet-keeping is confined to the private, or subjective, realm. Experiences with pets are kept out of the real, or objective, world. There is a huge gulf between companion animals, treated as members of the family, and animals in factory farms and research laboratories. Our relationships with our pets are based on different sets of attitudes, on I-thou relationships rather than I-it approach encouraged by science.

Whether in the laboratory or in the field, scientific investigators typically try to avoid emotional connections with the animals they are investigating. They aspire to a detached objectivity. They would therefore be unlikely to encounter the kinds of behavior and apparent consciousness that depend on the close attachment between animals and people. In this realm, animal trainers and pet owners are generally far more knowledgeable and experienced than professional researchers on animal behavior- unless they happen to be pet owners themselves.

Consciousness has been found to be one of the hardest things to define and study. The textbook definition of "Consciousness" is the full knowledge of what is in one’s own mind; awareness. "Consciousness" has many uses that may not be simplified into a single concept. Several useful distinctions among different senses of consciousness have been made though, and aided by these distinctions, it is possible to gain some clarity on the important questions that remain about animal consciousness. There are two notable senses of consciousness which are involved when a creature is awake rather than asleep, and the sense of consciousness shown in the primal ability of organisms to perceive and consequently respond to features of their environments, thus showing them as conscious or aware of those features. Consciousness in both these senses has been identified in organisms belong to a wide variety of taxonomic groups.

One researcher, Pete Chernika, who has intimately studied consciousness, specifically in dolphins, observes "In experiments, for instance, dolphins appear to pass one consciousness test by recognizing themselves in mirrors. And dolphins also exhibit a keen awareness of the status and identity of other dolphins in their highly social groups. They know who mom is, who the leaders of the pod are, and how they should behave around different individuals," he says. "They appear to be able to envision themselves in relation to all these other animals and then act accordingly."

Many researchers agree that consciousness is more likely in highly social animals such as chimps and dolphins, who must be able to see themselves in relation to others in their groups in order to get along. "Complex social interaction puts a high priority on awareness of self and others," says Chernika.

It is impossible to observe these intangible bonds that form between social animals, that link together the members of their groups or families. The same is true of human social bonds. Our domesticated animals are by nature social, as are we. The bonds between animals and humans are a kind of hybrid between the bonds that animals form with each other and those that people form with each other.

Within these social bonds and interactions there exists an order which may suggest the consciousness of each individual of their function or position within their given social structure. For an animal to recognize its position within the hierarchy of a group, it seems that they would have to be vaguely cognizant of themselves as an individual. Factors such as size, ferociousness, being of the male gender, ect., which are normally thought to dictate order in most social animal communities, are only fragments of establishing hierarchies and social structures. As an example, elephants usually associate in herds of about 20 individuals led by an old female, or matriarch. It has been observed that the eldest and most experience elephant is chosen as the matriarch and this position is not challenged. The other elephants are respectful and conscious of their place in the herd, and it is not until the matriarch dies is she replaced by the next oldest in the herd. Elephants happen to be very social and keenly sensitive to the motions and noises of the other elephants in their herd, fierce ‘animal’ competition does not dictate their order. Rather a sense of respect and an acute awareness of others behavior causes each individual to behave in a way that creates a cohesive social structure. In many animal social structures this deliberate self-modifcation of behavior and sense of place indicates an awareness of self.

Questions about animal consciousness are a fraction of the large set of questions about animal cognition and mind. The answers to these question of whether animals are conscious beings or "mere automata" could have serious moral consequences, considering the dependence of our societies the uses of animals for biomedical research and farming. The so-called "cognitive revolution" that occurred during the late 20th century has finally led to many experiments by psychologists and ethologists exploring the cognitive capacities of animals. Despite all this work, the topic of consciousness in animals has remained controversial, even taboo, among scientists, even while it remains a matter of common sense to most people that many other animals do have conscious experiences.

 

[Biker]

CentralTexas,

I had a hard time finishing your post....musta got some cigar smoke in my eye.
Thanks for posting it....
Biker