Possibility of the BG wearing armor affect your HD firearm choice?

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No, I do not plan on outfitting in the event the hypothetical bad guy whom I may encounter might be wearing body armor.

Why?

Because I don't consider that to be significant enough to warrant any radical changes in the hardware I carry.

A cop encountering bad guys wearing body armor during a planned bank robbery is a wee bit different than typical scenarios that most civilian people encounter.

Could I plan on such an event? Certainly. I can plan on nearly any event imaginable...but at some point I need to draw the line.

I choose to work at my own abilities with my chosen carry weapons, as this is the area where I'm most likely to produce a significant increase in my abilities to deal with the unexpected bad guy encounter.
 
Tirod said:
Maybe the question is better in the reverse - do YOU have body armor readily at hand if and when they come busting thru the door? Analyze your risk first and judge the expense vs probability. No sense undergunning yourself against a threat and then deliberately having less protection than the home invader, too. While we may not agree with the VP about "just shoot thru the door," there's no guarantee they won't.

Yes, I do. My bedroom is upstairs, and I keep a plate carrier hanging on a heavy steel hook on the back of my locked door. The armor is AR500 plate that I wrapped with laminated kevlar to mitigate splatter. The carrier has mags for my defensive sidearm and carbine and a holster to hold the BUG (an HK USP or P30S). Granted this won't do me much good if I'm not near it but I spend a lot of time in my room since that's where I keep the PC I'm posting from.

Sam1911 said:
Home invasions are pretty low-probability events for most of us. As in, most of us will live our whole lives without having someone break and enter our house while we're there. Having said that, we should and do prepare and practice to defend in that situation.

However, until and unless there is a documented increase in the numbers of such crimes where the intruders actually are kitting up in body armor, I don't think it is terribly important to change weapons just to meet that, seemingly very remote, possibility.

Especially as, as Bobson said, there is a common practice drill that seeks to answer that works with whatever weapon you might be using.

Agreed. Home invasions are very uncommon in South Dakota. When they do happen they generally involve drugs (eg someone knows the occupant is holding drugs or drug money). But of course those of us that CCW and plan for home defense aren't just looking at stats. If I ever am the victim of a home invasion my odds just became 100% with regards to this incident! I think we both are in agreement there.

The one advantage the occupant has is that our preparations and defenses can be elaborate, and we can plan well in advance. If I am going to be using a long gun the issue is it can be a 5.56 or a 9mm/.45 ACP for the same amount of weight and space.

sota said:
Mosambique Drill.
It's not THE answer to all problems, but it's a decent starting point.

Agreed, that's the best option and even applies with a rifle.


zerobarrier said:
I have a storm in 9mm set up for home defense with a blinding bright surefire light and 30 or 32 round mag in the rifle. If BG is wearing body armor then a few shots to the chest will still hurt and you can do quick follow up shots with the storm. Its going to make it hard for him to shoot back while he keeps getting hit in the chest. In my opinion the storm would still be fine and I would not change to another HD gun. I also always have a side arm on me as well.

Your setup is almost exactly like mine. I have a Beretta Storm carbine in 9mm, had my Surefire on it but I actually prefer the JETBeam BC25 (it's brighter than the X300 Ultra and I like the switch better). Mine is set up with a VFG, single point sling and a RDS. I alternate between 30 round factory and 20 round MecGar mags. In either case I keep them loaded with 147gr Federal HST. Short of penetrating body armor I am pretty confident in the capabilities of this carbine in my hands. I shoot it a lot, it's accurate and runs like a sewing machine.

Interesting conversation with lots of good points. I acknowledge that armor is probably not all that common but it's something I feel is worth thinking about. After all, I have body armor myself! It's not a stretch that someone that knows he might be headed into a gunfight might also bring his/her own armor.
 
I have a question for those of you who keep body armor handy:

Do you rehearse putting it on? If you don't rehearse putting it on, how sure are you that you will remember to "kit up" when you are awakened from REM sleep by the proverbial bump in the night?

The Level IIIA concealable body armor I wore when I worked the street is in the cedar chest at the foot of the bed. I keep my old Tac Team loadout bag with my Paraclete RAV with the BALCS inserts and SAPI plates,and my helmet downstairs in the gun room. The only reason I even keep that stuff is for when I instruct a live fire shoot house exercise. I have never contemplated using any of it in a home defense situation.

Everyone's situation is different. But I can't help thinking that some people really seriously over think this whole home defense thing.

When I was working I had to evacuate my family once because of death threats against myself and another officer. We both had officers waiting in our homes while the arrests were made. So I have experience with a high threat level.

I just don't think it's reasonable to expect that you can be startled out of a sound sleep, take a big adrenalin dump and in the moments immediately after that, kit up and go repel boarders. I suppose if you laid it out every night like an on duty firefighter lays out his turnout gear and practiced you could do it efficiently.

If you want to be sure that you aren't surprised by home invaders, you are going to have to have the family stand watch in shifts so someone is always awake and armed. That's the only sure way. I did that enough in the Army. No one wants to live like that.

I say let your level of preparation be decided by the threat level. The money you spend on body armor to keep by the bed might be better spent on good locks, motion sensor lighting, alarm systems, steel clad doors.........
 
I do practice putting it on, but only like once per month. I have no intention of "kitting up" and repelling borders! My plan is more like kit up, grab my gun and my phone (in that order) and hunker down in my safe-room/bedroom, not go clear my house like a commando. FWIW I feel that leaving it hanging on the door offers some protection in and of itself; anyone firing through the door into what would by my K-zone is going to hit AR500 plate. Worst case I fumble and forget to put it on or can't get to it, but it didn't cost much in the grand scheme of thing, certainly less than my cheapest center-fire gun.

I'll note too that mine doesn't have a cumberbun so while I have no side protection it's also very fast to put on and take off. Again, it's always a trade off, mobility vs protection, protection vs price, safety vs convenience, etc etc.

I'll also note that I don't wear armor out and about nor am I especially worried about armored BGs I might encounter in a theater, mall, etc. Not because it's impossible but because there's really nothing I can do about it. Not gonna tote an M4 or FN Five-Seven around daily just in case. That's why I specifically mentioned home defense. On my home turf I can be much more prepared than I could ever hope to be on the way to Wal-Mart for some soda or groceries.

Great point on doors, locks, lighting, etc. I started with that, not the gun and armor. Still have more to do but I can only due it little by little as budget and time allows.
 
I was talking to someone at work about this today.
One of the guys I work with is also a Military retiree and he has kicked in a few doors as a LEO also. The discussion we had centered on "stacking" and the entry. He seems to feel if they have no where but a funnel to set up in, then the point would be to stop the entry by folding up the first guy. I can certainly agree with that.
I don't think I would base my weapons choice based on the chances that the guy comming through the door might have a vest on, but then I have and 870 with slugs over OO waiting to repel borders, vest or not, thats going to sting.
 
Posted by Deltaboy: PER Federal a 12 gauge
2 3/4" with 1 oz sabot slug: (1859 foot pounds of energy )@ 25 yds, 1423 at 100.

Now that much energy will knock a man with a vest off his feet and should knock him out of the fight for a bit. So that why my 12 gauge have 00 and slugs in it.
If a projectile or shot charge will "knock a man with a vest off his feet", the recoil will knock the shooter off his feet.

Newton's third law.
 
It didn't enter my mind when i picked my primary HD guns. it just so happens that my primary HD guns are 12 GA shotguns, and I've seen a decent amount of research that indicates that the blunt impact of a non-penetrating shotgun blast to the wearer of body armor is pretty brutal.
So while it did not factor in, and I am certainly not trying to penetrate any body armor, it makes me a bit more comfortable knowing that the energy transfer would likely put a guy out of commission even though the pellets won't penetrate.
 
If a projectile or shot charge will "knock a man with a vest off his feet", the recoil will knock the shooter off his feet.Newton's third law.

I made a similar observation to DI at Parris Island in regards to the effectiveness of the 1911A1 and 45ACP-230Gr-FMJ. I questioned why the firer was not knocked down also. My observation was not received enthusiastically for questioning conventional wisdom of the period.
 
....it makes me a bit more comfortable knowing that the energy transfer would likely put a guy out of commission even though the pellets won't penetrate.
ONE MORE TIME---the momentum imparted to the target is the same as the impulse of the recoil.

If the vest prevents penetration and any significant deformation, it does so by spreading the impact of the shot over a much larger larger area.

Would it hurt enough to "put a guy out of commission"? Well, how much does the recoil of that little butt-plate hurt the shooter?

Think about it: if the shooter can tolerate the recoil on his shoulder, the target can tolerate the push on his body armor.

There is an old video put out for law enforcement training in which a shooter fires a 7.62 FAL rifle point blank at a man wearing body armor.

Didn't hurt either person.
 
Possibility of the BG wearing armor affect your HD firearm choice?

No cause I use the John Dillinger method.

If I suspect they have armor I'll aim high and I'll aim low.

Deaf
 
I practice at an outdoor range with a 1/2 size silhouette at 10 yds. Pick up gun, fire three and lay it down..repeat.

I would strongly suggest altering that practice routine to "pick up gun, fire three, assess over the sights" or something very like that. Lest you default to "lay it down" should the occasion ever arise in real life.

Practicing bad habits is one of the problems with not training with a good instructor first. One of the few things I ever had to be quietly proud about in a couple of shotgun classes with Louis Awerbuck was never having to be told "Run the bolt, Fred." Even with a shotgun, Louis always preached that we needed to be ready to shoot again instantly if needed. And a lot of real world experience with a pumpgun had already taught me that lesson pretty well. But it sure didn't hurt having it pounded into my subconscious some more.
 
Preparing for every anomaly you can think of is a losing proposition. What the bad guy has a grenade? What if he shoots your leg or groin or even head?
 
Posted by Fred Fuller (in response to "I practice at an outdoor range with a 1/2 size silhouette at 10 yds. Pick up gun, fire three and lay it down..repeat."): I would strongly suggest altering that practice routine to "pick up gun, fire three, assess over the sights" or something very like that. Lest you default to "lay it down" should the occasion ever arise in real life.
That's an excellent observation. It did not occur to me.

I also have to wonder abut the advisability of always practicing at 10 yards, considering Tom Givens' observation that violent encounters are apt to occur at much closer distances. Defaulting to a routine that involves looking for a sight picture before firing could lead to disaster.
 
Many like to set up a scenario by saying they will retreat to a safe room.

Is your safe room bullet resistant?

I cannot imagine thinking that one would be able to "plan out" one's "shooting lanes".

One will have to shoot at the target when need arises, and not a moment later, and from wherever one might be at the time.

So, the scenario is that from any angle you could be fired on? Downward thru the upstairs floor? From outside the house low next to the window you might be crouching near?

I've had my training in urban warfare, punching thru sheetrock to gain access into the next room is light exercise. Unless you fasten said bookcases to the studs, a broom handle can penetrate the rock and push them over, all while the intruder does his work with relative impunity - it protects him as much as you.

The vast majority of intrusions are the two listed incidents I mentioned - them's the facts. What's left are the very small minority, and not checking the address ranks really high as the cause, whether police or thugs. My take on this is armoring up the interior of the home in a last ditch stand is pretty desperate, when the smarter choice would be an extended exterior defense where the attackers are stymied or stopped before they even get in the door.

Plenty of options there, the normal ways to constrain entry has been going on for centuries. Town walls, moats, gates, use of the existing landscape like hill tops, etc. Now we see gated communities, apartment buildings have been using entry request systems for over 50 years, doormen are still common for those who can afford them.

Where all the "home invasion" comments come from are suburban residents with no historical education or military training. What I keep reading is responses literally "made up" with a very narrow view and apparently no background.

It was noted in another thread that a rural home was broken into while the resident was away - they left the back door open. It brought to mind a relative who lives in a similar situation - there's a driveway "chime" when something sets it off at the highway, vehicle or walker, which alerts the dogs (friendly as they are) that family is coming home, and the barking starts.

Point being, none of the common sense things are discussed in a rush to deeply analyze how often someone should practice donning body armor when awakened randomly from a deep sleep by an intruder staring down over you in bed. <----- Which is exactly the sort of fantasy talk these threads always degenerate into.

Let's back up to square one - just what are you doing to invite thugs to bash down your door and attack you? How did they even arrive there, what got their attention, and what can you do to explicitly prevent them from even being a problem?

You can only do so much, prevention is a lot better than a last ditch effort. Sure is better than having the cops or some thugs parade your wife and family around in their jammies while they insult and beat you. We need to start thinking ahead of the curve - not reactively when doom is on your doorstep.

Of course, that is a lot harder sell on a gun forum, because we can't discuss what caliber, what type gun, and what your shooting lanes will be. There will be shooting lanes, of course, what you need to do is understand them and create them, not be subject to a complete lack of planning.

In the military there are plenty of options to exercise - filling the hallway with concertina wire isn't something we would easily do at a moments notice, but is there something you CAN do to slow them down? That bookcase would do a better job if it was laying across the hall opening to slow them down. Of course, if you can think of ways to enable that, better to do it at all the points of ingress and stop them before they even get in.

Sometimes it just might be as simple as NOT putting out all the cool new boxes the electronic toys came in out at the curb after Christmas. Ya know, the cops have been telling us stuff for years and we simply won't listen.

Nitpick me all you like, just know that your best interests are in mind. Don't waste your efforts in things that are too little too late. Get your defense in order up front.
 
ONE MORE TIME---the momentum imparted to the target is the same as the impulse of the recoil.

I get quite tired of this, also.

Momentum isn't the same as energy and I wish people would get that through their heads conceptually.

For some reason, Newton's Third Law simply never penetrates people's heads on this, so I'd recommend they do a little practical experiment:

Get a dufflebag or something similar and pack it out with sufficient material to weight somewhere close to their own body weight. I weigh 186 pounds, so I'd pack it out to a similar weight.

Make sure the material the bag is packed with is capable of actually stopping the bullet at the point where it's going to be shot. Like several inches of wood or something planted in the middle of the dufflebag.

Then hang the bag from a sturdy tree branch somewhere outdoors where it's safe to shoot at it.

Then shoot it and see exactly how much it moves. Or, rather, how much it DOESN'T move compared to the expectations.

Another apt comparison:

Two objects of the same size, like billiard balls, will result in significant velocity transfer between them when one moving ball collides with the other
stationary ball, depending on the angles involved.

Plant a stationary 16 pound bowling ball in the path of the moving billiard ball and see exacly how much energy is NOT actually transferred to the stationary bowling ball. It's EXACTLY the same principle, folks.
 
Poste by Tirod: Many like to set up a scenario by saying they will retreat to a safe room.
Yes, that is a widely recommended strategy. It's a good one if you can do it. Sometimes you may be able to.

Is your safe room bullet resistant?
Not mine, nor does that concern me from the standpoint of my safety.

One should, however, be mindful of the backstop.

So, the scenario is that from any angle you could be fired on?
From any point from which an assailant surprised by my presence can see me--from within the room in which I happen to be at the time, or through any opening into it.

That's up to 360 degrees, in the horizontal plane.

Downward thru the upstairs floor? From outside the house low next to the window you might be crouching near?
Getting a little silly, aren't we?

I've had my training in urban warfare, punching thru sheetrock to gain access into the next room is light exercise.
I should think it much more likely that an intruder would enter the next room though a door.

Unless you fasten said bookcases to the studs, a broom handle can penetrate the rock and push them over, all while the intruder does his work with relative impunity - it protects him as much as you.
That would be one for the books!

The vast majority of intrusions are the two listed incidents I mentioned - them's the facts. What's left are the very small minority, and not checking the address ranks really high ...
I'm less interested in overall police report stats and more in what I might have to defend against.

In recent years in our area, violent entries in good neighborhoods included these:
  • Thugs tipped off that the residents were collectors of valuable coins entered quickly in mid day and tied up the victims; the residents had been on a cell phone, and the person at the other end called police.
  • Men followed a custmer home from a gun store and returned later at night to break in; their plans were foiled by armed residents.
  • Two men kicked in the back door of a house and tied up the residents. They departed with vauables.
  • A person rerurned home in mid-day to be shot and killed by two burglars who had boken in.

Some years ago, an employee of a favorite college restaurant took his carving knife home with him and gained entry into the nearby apartment of a co-ed. His attempt at rape was foiled by screams and the arrival of neighbors. The police advised her and her roommate to get a gun.

NOOO! We HATE guns! They moved to a much nicer neighborhood, and within weeks served as ear-witnesses to a brutal rape and murder in the apartment next door.

Just before that someone tried to jimmy his way into our apartment just after my wife had left for a class. The guy who shared our fire escape took care of him. No police report was filed.

I have been involved in defensive gun use incidents pertaining to break-ins in good neighborhoods on three occasions over the last five decades. The perps are mobile.

Let's back up to square one - just what are you doing to invite thugs to bash down your door and attack you? How did they even arrive there, what got their attention, and what can you do to explicitly prevent them from even being a problem?
Well, they most likely arrived in a car, but for the other questions there are probably are as many answers as there are people.

The plumber told someone what he saw in your house. A delivery man saw the invoice for valuing the rings at the jeweler's. Someone overheard someone else saying that her daughter is watering your houseplants for a week. Someone just happened to notice something he liked when he drove past while your garage door was open for a moment. Someone in the store was watching while you bought that nice new telephoto zoom lens. Someone recognized your car as the one he say at the trap club.

Sometimes it just might be as simple as NOT putting out all the cool new boxes the electronic toys came in out at the curb after Christmas. Ya know, the cops have been telling us stuff for years and we simply won't listen.
That's not a bad suggestion at all.

These days, however, Facebook and Twitter postings probably pose more risk.
 
ONE MORE TIME---the momentum imparted to the target is the same as the impulse of the recoil.

Quite right. Woke up and wasn't thinking straight. Baby was screaming last night, etc... I'll take my dunce cap and go sit in the corner.:banghead:
 
Plant a stationary 16 pound bowling ball in the path of the moving billiard ball and see exacly how much energy is NOT actually transferred to the stationary bowling ball. It's EXACTLY the same principle, folks.

If we were speaking purely of physics this would be correct, but just an observation.
When I fire a shotgun, I brace myself, tuck the stock in to my shoulder and lean a bit in to the recoil.
When I come through a door I usually am not prepared, braced, tucked or leaning in expecting a 12 gauge slug.
A "Sucker Punch" would be a transfer of energy that you would not think possible by it's energy and mass to knock a Man down, but it works.
 
The main question was,
So does the chance that the BG might armored enter into the equation when you, the members of THR, choose a gun for home defense? After all, while it's impractical to tote an M4 with all day (unless you live in Faluja) it's certainly possible to have one by the nightstand.

That was answered well by Sam in Post #5:

However, until and unless there is a documented increase in the numbers of such crimes where the intruders actually are kitting up in body armor, I don't think it is terribly important to change weapons just to meet that, seemingly very remote, possibility.

Especially as, as Bobson said, there is a common practice drill that seeks to answer that works with whatever weapon you might be using.

Now, if you discover that some month there are reports that a gang is working in your area whose M.O. involves invasions of occupied homes and armoring up, yeah I might consider changing my defensive gun just to meet that altered threat profile.

Let me pose this additional question: will something that you have "by the nightstand" serve as an effective risk mitigator?

I kept a handgun in the bedroom from 1964 to 2009, excluding my college years.

Then it occurred to me that my chances of getting to it timely when I was not in the bedroom were not as high as I had naively assumed.

That will depend upon home layout and other things, bt it is something to factor into the equation.
 
Let me pose this additional question: will something that you have "by the nightstand" serve as an effective risk mitigator?

I kept a handgun in the bedroom from 1964 to 2009, excluding my college years.

Then it occurred to me that my chances of getting to it timely when I was not in the bedroom were not as high as I had naively assumed.

A S&W Model 36 loaded with 158 grain round nose lead in a pocket holster solves the problem for me. It doesn't print in my normal attire and I don't have to worry about an unauthorized person accessing it.

In my opinion it's a much better solution then stashing loaded weapons all over the house.

The best defense is physical security measures that will give ample warning and slow an intruder down long enough to allow you some time to prepare.

This can be problematic for people living in rental property or condominiums though. That said, there are solutions to those problems too.
 
Posted by Jeff White: A S&W Model 36 loaded with 158 grain round nose lead in a pocket holster solves the problem for me. It doesn't print in my normal attire and I don't have to worry about an unauthorized person accessing it.
That's what I did (442). I have since changed to carrying a 9MM, which I leave on until bedtime.

In my opinion it's a much better solution then stashing loaded weapons all over the house.
I couldn't agree more.

The best defense is physical security measures that will give ample warning and slow an intruder down long enough to allow you some time to prepare.
Yep.
 
A S&W Model 36 loaded with 158 grain round nose lead in a pocket holster solves the problem for me. It doesn't print in my normal attire and I don't have to worry about an unauthorized person accessing it.

In my opinion it's a much better solution then stashing loaded weapons all over the house.

The best defense is physical security measures that will give ample warning and slow an intruder down long enough to allow you some time to prepare.

This can be problematic for people living in rental property or condominiums though. That said, there are solutions to those problems too.
I agree with the concept of the M36 in pocket, especially as I have a Ruger KLCR for my pocket. What I'm curious about is the choice of ammo? The 158gr round nose has a poor stopping record, nearly any other .38 load other than FMJ would likely be substantially better. Do you have some specific reason for choosing the load you did?
 
Originally Posted By, Phaedrus/69
……… So does the chance that the BG might armored enter into the equation when you, the members of THR, choose a gun for home defense? After all, while it's impractical to tote an M4 (Ed.) all day (unless you live in Fallujah) (Ed.) it's certainly possible to have one by the nightstand.

Pistol, shotgun or rifle- do you plan for the possibility of facing armor?

No, I really don’t; but, then again, I don’t expect to be attacked in my home by heavily armed and armored government forces.

Wearing a standard, ‘Level III’ (soft) vest is one thing. Wearing a modern IOTV* military vest is quite another. In my entire life I’ve only known one fellow who went to the expense and trouble of obtaining one of these high-tech military vests. (They’re expensive, and just not that common.)

Apparently defeating Level III body armor is easier than you think; but, I’m NOT going to post how to do this on the Internet.

* (Improved Outer Tactical Vest)

Originally Posted By, Double_J
A number of years ago I read an article about the pelvic shot being preferred by the Israeli sky marshals. I also saw that same article recommend the "belt buckle" shot for stopping an opponent if torso shots were not working. The idea being to break the pelvic girdle, which then leads to the bad guy falling down, and possibly damaging the femoral artery or other major blood source.

I wish I could remember who wrote that article, and where I read it but it has been over 10+ years ago. I also asked an LEO friend about it and got the advice it was a good tactic for up close in your face to about 10 feet away.

I also see a lot of head shots being taken but the head is a very small target and can move independently of the body. Whatever you do make sure to practice it until it is stone cold muscle memory, and practice situational awareness.

That sure sounds like something Massad Ayoob would have written. Dr. Martin Fackler, however, couldn’t have disagreed more.





NOTES: (1) We once had our home invaded. The guy looked like an opportunistic vagrant; and he had a knife. We had two Pit Bulldogs. Guess who won!

(2) Tirod, you are one savvy dude! ;)
 
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