Possibility of the BG wearing armor affect your HD firearm choice?

[GEM]

Knockdown tests - see Mythbusters - Blown Away and Blown Away Revisted episodes. A dummy and a pig carcass were hardly moved by various calibers - even the big ones.

 

[Jeff White]

The 158gr round nose has a poor stopping record, nearly any other .38 load other than FMJ would likely be substantially better. Do you have some specific reason for choosing the load you did?

You are just wasting money on high performance .38 rounds out of a 2 inch barrel. You won't generate enough velocity for a hollow point to expand. Since the 2" barrel limits the velocity so much I want to hit them with the biggest projectile it will safely shoot.

I saw a good example of this right after I started my law enforcement career. A 72 year old man attempted suicide one Sunday morning. He used a Chief's Special in .38 special. It was loaded with a Remington Peters semi-jacketed hollow point.

He shot himself right under the left nipple. The bullet went through and through and was found in his clothes they cut off of him in the ER. It looked like someone had used a puller and pulled it from the case. No deformation at all.

The man survived the wound.

 

[WestKentucky]

Nope. If hes wearing armor the target just gets a lot smaller, and no not the head but the legs. Take one of those out and he drops... momentarily destroying his ability to aim...and at the end of that moment my fat self will either be behind cover reloading or 2 counties over kicking up heeldust.

 

[jeepnik]

Shotgun, headshot, problem solved.

My HD firearm of choice is a semi auto 20 ga. I figure a pelvic shot should anchor most folks in place and render them pretty much out of any fight. Front, back or side matters not with pelvic shots any direction will do some very serious and painful damage.

 

[mastergunner]

In any situation with any weapon the most feared attack is to the face. It contains many things most precious to humans, even if it is a flesh wound it will cause a heightened amount of fear due to the large amount of blood. I train to attack the face, think about it, the best chance of a kill outside of the heart which is much smaller than the head is through the face and if your a little low with luck through the neck and the spine. Until intruders start regularly wearing bullet proof face shields this will be my favorite attack.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Let me pose this additional question: will something that you have "by the nightstand" serve as an effective risk mitigator?

I kept a handgun in the bedroom from 1964 to 2009, excluding my college years.

Then it occurred to me that my chances of getting to it timely when I was not in the bedroom were not as high as I had naively assumed.

That's complicated! First off I'll be the first person to admit that there's no perfect safety or security in the world. Nada. All we can do is work on the factors that we can. I think we're each looking at this from different angles. Since we're both posting at THR I will go out on a limb and assume we're both "gun guys". I like guns. A lot. I love to shoot them, clean them, accessorize them and discuss them on the interwebz. Like most gun guys I'm always thinking about what I'm going to get next. If I was rich I'd probably have 200 firearms! Of course I'm not rich at all so I prioritize based on my needs as I see them and what I think I would enjoy shooting.

Having an M4 in my bedroom and a full set of Dragonskin wouldn't make me impervious to invasion, I get that. Nor would it do me any good if I'm sitting downstairs eating dinner when the BG bursts in. That said, the majority of my time at home is spent in this room. I have very good locks and properly reinforced doors downstairs which should buy me time and give me warning. The bedroom door is also locked virtually every moment I'm in within (force of habit, as weird as that might sound). And I do keep a sidearm either on my person or within arms reach when I'm elsewhere in the house. Of course, I have not figured out a way to carry in the shower...I just take my chances there!

I'm not saying an M4 is the best HD gun, and I'm not saying it's not. I just think the issue of armored perps is one that's worth discussing, as we are discussing it.

The best defense is physical security measures that will give ample warning and slow an intruder down long enough to allow you some time to prepare.

That's kind of what I'm driving at. I'm not really worried per se about home invasions; it would be very surprising if I'm ever subjected to one. This is a pretty safe area in a pretty safe city in a pretty safe state in one of the safer countries in the world. But of course, that's something that complacent people say every day as an excuse not to CCW. As Mr. White points out, my goal has been to work on exterior lighting, good locks and other physical security, and other things to give me some time if there's a bump in the night. The question is- time to do what?

Many like to set up a scenario by saying they will retreat to a safe room.

Is your safe room bullet resistant?

Quote:
I cannot imagine thinking that one would be able to "plan out" one's "shooting lanes".

One will have to shoot at the target when need arises, and not a moment later, and from wherever one might be at the time.
So, the scenario is that from any angle you could be fired on? Downward thru the upstairs floor? From outside the house low next to the window you might be crouching near?

I've had my training in urban warfare, punching thru sheetrock to gain access into the next room is light exercise. Unless you fasten said bookcases to the studs, a broom handle can penetrate the rock and push them over, all while the intruder does his work with relative impunity - it protects him as much as you.

Believe me, I've thought of that! But I can't stop the rain, man. I lack the financial means to build a house that's completely impervious to assault. I have considered what I might be able to do to reinforce my safe room further. Some of my ideas would sound outlandish even here! But I'm thinking.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

This completely ignores the home invasions in which material/monetary gains are either not a motivating factor, or are secondary. Some people are just sick, and they break into homes to assault, rape and/or murder people. May not be that common, but it hits home hard when it happens to one of your family members. My father and stepmother died in their bed because a 17 year old delinquent had murder on the brain. That was his only motive.

Tends to make one rethink strategies. I live in a peaceful, rural area, but still plan for the worst. No, I don't have electrified 8' fences with barbed wire, but I do button up windows and doors, have dogs and cameras, a handgun on the night stand and, within one step of the bed, a 5.56mm AR and a level III vest.

Completely missed part of this til the 3rd time through. Sorry you had to go through such a thing, MachIVshooter. Not much worse a person will face than losing their parents, no matter the age. And you make a good point; such crimes may be uncommon but they're life altering/ending when they do occur. They're the "black swan" events, low probability but very high stakes.

 

[JustinJ]

The chances that a bad guy will invade one's home wearing body armor is so remote its just to silly to worry about. If one is sincerely interested in protecting the lives and well being of themselves and/or family, there is a countless list of greater risks than body armored bad guys to address.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by JustinJ: The chances that a bad guy will invade one's home wearing body armor is so remote its just to silly to worry about.

For most people, in this country, I agree completely.

I don't know about high-profile persons. I would ask someone in the executive protection business.

If one is sincerely interested in protecting the lives and well being of themselves and/or family, there is a countless list of greater risks than body armored bad guys to address.

Absolutely!

 

[george burns]

I have no problem hitting the head at 20-30 ft distances on the fly. Or the legs, it's just as easy as hitting the other vitals areas. Also I keep 2 very sharp knives, handy. But it should be just as easy for a decent shot to hit the head or the waist and below, "especially with a shotgun loaded with buck and slugs alternately.
But my 45 would do the trick just fine. Both legs would be first if the head was protected.

 

[BigBL87]

This completely ignores the home invasions in which material/monetary gains are either not a motivating factor, or are secondary. Some people are just sick, and they break into homes to assault, rape and/or murder people. May not be that common, but it hits home hard when it happens to one of your family members. My father and stepmother died in their bed because a 17 year old delinquent had murder on the brain. That was his only motive.

Tends to make one rethink strategies. I live in a peaceful, rural area, but still plan for the worst. No, I don't have electrified 8' fences with barbed wire, but I do button up windows and doors, have dogs and cameras, a handgun on the night stand and, within one step of the bed, a 5.56mm AR and a level III vest.

Well put. For me, home invasion for burglary and for assault are about even in what I would prepare for. Reason being, I am a juvenile detention officer and deal with juvenile delinquents day in and day out. All it takes is one of them who feels I wronged them and figures out where I live (which isn't all that hard nowadays). I have a 9mm by the bed and 12 gauge in the closet. I'm much more proficient with the shotgun so the 9mm is mainly to get me over to the closet safely. In all honesty, starting work in the juvenile justice field was the thing that finally pushed me into gun ownership less than a year ago. Always been interested but didn't want to go through the hassle Illinois makes you go through.

 

[GEM]

I have to comment on the pistol gets you to the long arm mantra. I had a friend tell me that he will use his 45 to get to the shotgun.

Do people really think they shoot so purely that they will spray and pray as they run to a closet. If you have missed your target, then why aren't you shot to pieces while you are running, opening the door, getting out the long arm, making it ready, shouldering it, etc. That isn't the fastest thing to do.

I would prefer being able to hit someone with a the 17 rounds in my 9mm or the 9 rounds in my 45 as a first effective action.

 

[JustinJ]

I don't know about high-profile persons. I would ask someone in the executive protection business.

True, although most of the high-profile persons probably pay others to worry about such things.

 

[BigBL87]

I have to comment on the pistol gets you to the long arm mantra. I had a friend tell me that he will use his 45 to get to the shotgun.

Do people really think they shoot so purely that they will spray and pray as they run to a closet. If you have missed your target, then why aren't you shot to pieces while you are running, opening the door, getting out the long arm, making it ready, shouldering it, etc. That isn't the fastest thing to do.

I would prefer being able to hit someone with a the 17 rounds in my 9mm or the 9 rounds in my 45 as a first effective action.

My statement is purely based on proficiency, not on the idea my shotgun is inately better. I've been shooting a shotgun alot longer than a handgun and my handgun accuracy still sucks. It's more of a "so I'm armed immediately on my way to my shotgun" deal. It may only be 10 feet, but I'd rather have something those 10 feet than nothing.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

On the "pistol gets me to the long gun" mentality...

That's fine for combat. For personal protection, however, defense is "weapon of opportunity" to engage the threat at hand with an ultimate end goal of the immediate preservation of life and limb.

With that said, "getting to a long gun" MAY be part of that strategy, depending on the given circumstances. But, like so many other aspects governing how we react to any given scenario in life, centering one's personal defense around "getting to my long gun" is asinine. It's one option among many, no more and no less.

It's like I told a guy many years ago who threatened me with "I'm going to get my gun out of my car!" My answer was "If you think I'm letting you get to your car, you've got another think coming."

 

[blarby]

PPC

That would be a Particle Projection Cannon- Heavy and hot on a Mech, probably less useful for home
defense.

http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php?title=Particle_Projection_Cannons

I'd opt for the BAPPC, as you get more shots per minute, conferred by having a less focused , wider beam... although sacrificing some element of long range performance.

http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php?title=Particle_Projection_Cannons

That thingy on both the MAdcats arms ? Thats a PPC- neat ion blasty gizmo.

If you'd like more info on how a real life PPC would work....

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1984/jul-aug/roberds.html

Sorry, this thread is getting so silly in parts, I couldn't resist.

Now, a PCC; Pistol Caliber Carbine- thats probably more appropriate.


As to the original question, BG's in body armor are a concern, for certain. Most of the PCC's I've seen will not defeat the armor any more than the pistol originally chambered for that cartridge. This is of course widely dependent on exactly what level of armor your perp is kitted out in.

Cant go wrong with a short BBL'd AR-10 if defeating all but the highest grades of armor repeatedly is a big concern to you.

Barring that, most of those before this post have widely illustrated common methods of overcoming all but the most complete of armor designs.

IF thats not good enough, Well, maybe the PPC wouldn't be such a bad idea afterall... but its kinda like sleeping with an RPG. Certainly prone to cutting down on the cuddle time, unless pine-tar covered wood and a less than sleek high-yield copper explosive is your kinda cuddle buddy.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

NEITHER, mythbuster test had a vest on them. A center mass hit with a 12,gauge slug going to break some ribs and maybe the sternum. Watch some old 2nd chance vest where he shoots himself with a 44 magnum and he goes backwards.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Hahaha! I really loved Mechwarrior for my Playstation. Even had the big dual analog joystick. The PPC was powerful but really slow. I liked missiles and machine guns better.

I'm probably lucky I don't have that for home defense! I'd smoke the home invader but wouldn't have much house left!

 

[justice06rr]

I guess if I heard on the news that BG's are breaking into homes wearing armor, I'd opt for the most powerful firearm I can use. While Barrett 50BMG's might be out of the price range of most gun owners, you can still try to use the largest caliber available e.g. 7.62x54R rifles and 12ga shotgun loaded with slugs (Saiga and VEPR rifles are a good choice here). A few hits with those can still inflict pain and possibly slow down or deter the BG's.

You're best option really is to re-inforce your home security with better doors/windows/locks, alarm, and large dogs.

 

[45_auto]

For all of you guys that are followers of the Mozambique and are going to transition to the head/pelvis/leg shots after the first two to center mass don't stop the bad guy, I have a simple question:

How do you know that you hit him with the first two shots?

In the real world, 99.9% of the time the reason the bad guy doesn't stop after you shoot twice at center mass is BECAUSE YOU MISSED, not because he is wearing body armor, hopped up on drugs, or whatever the latest internet ninja excuse is.

Transitioning to quicker moving, smaller, harder to hit targets like the head/pelvis/legs etc sounds great on the internet, but if you think you really have a chance at that after missing something as big as a chest (but thinking you hit it...), good luck to you. You'll find that your target is NOT standing there immobile in front of you at a precisely measured 7 yards like that B24 you shoot a 1" group into once every couple of months at the range.

Based on my military, LE, and hunting experience in the real world, many times there is very little or no immediate indication of center mass hits even with a rifle, much less a pistol. No big explosions of blood, attacker flying backwards, etc.

So how do you know whether you hit him or missed him immediately after the first two shots? Are you going to shoot two center mass (should take about half a second, assuming a slow .50 split), then stop and wait for an indication that he was hit? Or do you shoot the two center mass in the first second (which you missed), then immediately transition to the much more diffficult head/pelvis target and empty the rest of your mag into the surrounding countryside in the next couple of seconds?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

So how do you know whether you hit him or missed him immediately after the first two shots? Are you going to shoot two center mass (should take about half a second, assuming a slow .50 split), then stop and wait for an indication that he was hit? Or do you shoot the two center mass in the first second (which you missed), then immediately transition to the much more diffficult head/pelvis target and empty the rest of your mag into the surrounding countryside in the next couple of seconds?

The answer to your question lies in my philosophy with respect to the "double-tap" shooting:

My definition of "double-tap" is "shoot until the attacker stops, then reload with a second magazine and continue if required".

When attacked, one does not plan on stopping the attacker with any given number of rounds...they shoot until the attack stops. Period.

And that NEVER implies "spray and pray" tactics. EVER. (Which is what some people seem to believe.)

Contrary to some ways of thinking, one does NOT have to stop shooting to "evaluate" the situation. (This has always been my objection to the classic "double-tap" method.) It's perfectly acceptable to interpret what one's eyes are telling them about the attacker while they're actively engaged in shooting.

 

[Jeff White]

For all of you guys that are followers of the Mozambique and are going to transition to the head/pelvis/leg shots after the first two to center mass don't stop the bad guy, I have a simple question:

How do you know that you hit him with the first two shots?

Stopping and assessing after firing two rounds is outdated. Fire until the bad guy stops whatever it is you need him to stop doing.

Some trainers, particularly Pat Rogers, teach a non-standard response where you fire five to ten rounds center of mass.

Other people train to shoot a failure drill in every engagement. Which one would be better in every situation is debatable. The key thing to remember is that the fight isn't over until your opponent has ceased the hostile action.

 

[HRnightmare]

The risk of needing to use your gun to protect yourself or family is soo minimal, the risk that the BG is ALSO going to have body armor is even more minimal.

I think compensating for this potetnial by drastically upping your HD choice may run the risk of you shooting at a small target like the head, over penetration and then you worrying about were those extra bullets went. I wont say "worrying about it is absolutely unnecessary because there is a chance this could happen, albeit minuscule. There is also a chance they may have stolen a National Guard armory and are attacking in an armored APC and have armed themselves with a full auto M249B prior to the assault on your home. You just simply cannot wrap yourself up on every single "What could happen"

HOWEVER read some stories of people hoppedup on K2 or meth or about Somali kid soldiers and the Khat they chew on and see how that drug has almost turned people bullet proof. There are stories of guys taking bullets to the face, brain and multiple bullets to vital organs and still fighting / moving. That is probably more of a concern than body armor. In any case, your own body armor maybe the best fight against it if you are so inclined. I have two sets. steel plates and soft plates.

 

[HRnightmare]

Based on my military, LE, and hunting experience in the real world, many times there is very little or no immediate indication of center mass hits even with a rifle, much less a pistol. No big explosions of blood, attacker flying backwards, etc.

Clearly you have never seen someone take a bullet from a .50BMG or from air support. haha

 

[Jeff White]

In any case, your own body armor maybe the best fight against it if you are so inclined. I have two sets. steel plates and soft plates.

Do you wear this every day?

I used to wear body armor every day at work and I can tell you, I haven't put it on since retirement.

The risk of needing to use your gun to protect yourself or family is soo minimal, the risk that the BG is ALSO going to have body armor is even more minimal.

This is exactly why I don't wear body armor anymore unless I am instructing certain things on the range. If you don't deliberately put yourself in harms way on a daily basis, the trade off between personal comfort and security puts comfort on top for me.