Post your favorite PDWs
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Panzerschwein
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What do you define as "personal defense weapon"?
If you mean guns like the P90 and MP7 etc. etc., I choose the P90.
Excellent firepower, controllable under full auto, very reliable, nice cartridge, large magazine, short and light, what's not to like?
If you mean guns like the P90 and MP7 etc. etc., I choose the P90.
Excellent firepower, controllable under full auto, very reliable, nice cartridge, large magazine, short and light, what's not to like?
barnbwt
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There's only so many to choose from;
PM63
VZ61
Uzi Pro (finally small enough to not quite qualify as an SMG)
PS90/P90
TMP/MP9
Stechkin (I guess)
MP7
M3 Carbine (I guess, with para stock and shorter barrel, maybe)
That non-suppressed SBR version of the VSS Vintorez (on the big side)
SIG MPX (still kinda on the big side)
I personally think it's the most unexplored, and therefore interesting field of firearms development left. It's the peak of engineering difficulty to pack all the features of a larger weapon (controls, locking, and feeding systems, and sights) into a very small package, which is effectively what the PDW is.
You have to simultaneously optimize:
-Size (not too big to be unobtrusive, not too small to be ergonomic in F/A fire)
-Weight (by using small high pressure cartridges you can retain desired firepower)
-Feeding (maintaining full auto reliability with small ammo is more difficult)
-Features (manual safety, selector switch, charging system, modularity, sights)
-Strength (by incorporating a mechanical locking system that allows for higher pressure ammo)
-Cool (laugh all you want, but the quintessential PDW guns all have some unique quality that constantly lands them in movies/games/etc.
)
My personal belief is the MP7 is the only modern gun to truly fit the niche (even the P90 more resembles an SMG in its simplicity), and the M3 Carbine before that. Most every other weapon has been either a lower powered pistol caliber carbine (TMP) or a much more powerful light carbine (Vintorez). The M3 Carbine in 22 Johnson Spitfire w/ short barrel and folding stock would have been right on the money
TCB
PM63
VZ61
Uzi Pro (finally small enough to not quite qualify as an SMG)
PS90/P90
TMP/MP9
Stechkin (I guess)
MP7
M3 Carbine (I guess, with para stock and shorter barrel, maybe)
That non-suppressed SBR version of the VSS Vintorez (on the big side)
SIG MPX (still kinda on the big side)
I personally think it's the most unexplored, and therefore interesting field of firearms development left. It's the peak of engineering difficulty to pack all the features of a larger weapon (controls, locking, and feeding systems, and sights) into a very small package, which is effectively what the PDW is.
You have to simultaneously optimize:
-Size (not too big to be unobtrusive, not too small to be ergonomic in F/A fire)
-Weight (by using small high pressure cartridges you can retain desired firepower)
-Feeding (maintaining full auto reliability with small ammo is more difficult)
-Features (manual safety, selector switch, charging system, modularity, sights)
-Strength (by incorporating a mechanical locking system that allows for higher pressure ammo)
-Cool (laugh all you want, but the quintessential PDW guns all have some unique quality that constantly lands them in movies/games/etc.
)My personal belief is the MP7 is the only modern gun to truly fit the niche (even the P90 more resembles an SMG in its simplicity), and the M3 Carbine before that. Most every other weapon has been either a lower powered pistol caliber carbine (TMP) or a much more powerful light carbine (Vintorez). The M3 Carbine in 22 Johnson Spitfire w/ short barrel and folding stock would have been right on the money
TCB
C-grunt
Member
Personally I think the best PDWs are the short 300 Blk AR rifles. With the 110-125 grain bullets you have a very small weapon that can defeat body armor and still effectively engage targets out to 200+ yards.
barnbwt
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Oh, damn, we're supposed to post our favorite PDWs (sorry)
I've only got two so far, a Steyr SPP that I've added a B&T MP9 topcover to (best of both), and a VZ61 skorpion (which I won't post since it's an ugly Bubba job; fool cut off the rear sight and welded a drop-set rail on to the back of the receiver
)
I'm also working on a design of my own that uses the best aspects of the P90 (ammo & magazine), MP7 (gas-operation and airsoft shell), and Madsen LMG (flipper bolt). As pictured, the barrel is 16" and OAL 28" with stock extended. Should be cutting metal/plastic on it this year.
TCB
I've only got two so far, a Steyr SPP that I've added a B&T MP9 topcover to (best of both), and a VZ61 skorpion (which I won't post since it's an ugly Bubba job; fool cut off the rear sight and welded a drop-set rail on to the back of the receiver
)I'm also working on a design of my own that uses the best aspects of the P90 (ammo & magazine), MP7 (gas-operation and airsoft shell
), and Madsen LMG (flipper bolt). As pictured, the barrel is 16" and OAL 28" with stock extended. Should be cutting metal/plastic on it this year.TCB
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barnbwt
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"you have a very small weapon"
The AR buffer tube kind of negates the ability for a very small size. I mean, yeah, if you hang it across your chest all day it's not a hindrance, but if your primary job is running a wrench or vehicle it becomes much less practical compared to a weapon that can literally be holstered on the hip (TMP), thigh (MP7), or under the shoulder (P90). 300BO is also pretty powerful for a PDW concept weapon, at least historically. At least the blast signature is attenuated considerably from the 223/5.56 in shorter barrels. How effective is Blackout in <10" barrels, though, compared to smaller/less powerful rounds like Carbine or 10mm?
I do think a SIG MPX with either thermo-nuclear 9mm +P+ or a longer magwell that can accommodate something more powerful would be a very compelling setup, not unlike the Bizon (but without those cool mags). The SIG does not require a buffer tube/spring if memory serves, being a piston driven design.
Oh yeah, add Bizon in 223BOZ or Tokarev to the list
TCB
The AR buffer tube kind of negates the ability for a very small size. I mean, yeah, if you hang it across your chest all day it's not a hindrance, but if your primary job is running a wrench or vehicle it becomes much less practical compared to a weapon that can literally be holstered on the hip (TMP), thigh (MP7), or under the shoulder (P90). 300BO is also pretty powerful for a PDW concept weapon, at least historically. At least the blast signature is attenuated considerably from the 223/5.56 in shorter barrels. How effective is Blackout in <10" barrels, though, compared to smaller/less powerful rounds like Carbine or 10mm?
I do think a SIG MPX with either thermo-nuclear 9mm +P+ or a longer magwell that can accommodate something more powerful would be a very compelling setup, not unlike the Bizon (but without those cool mags). The SIG does not require a buffer tube/spring if memory serves, being a piston driven design.
Oh yeah, add Bizon in 223BOZ or Tokarev to the list
TCB
C-grunt
Member
Yeah I guess the term small is depending on what you are comparing it to.
While the P90 and MP7 are indeed a good bit smaller I dont care for the rounds. Historically the 5.7 has not had great success with LE SWAT teams that have used it. Also Ive heard from PMCs that have used the HK MP7 that its a great weapon but you gotta put a good burst into the bad guys the drop them.
Plus you get to the point of range. Id have no qualms engaging a bad guy at 200 meters with a 300 Blk 110-125 grain bullet out of an 8 inch barrel. The 5.7 and the 4.6 dont have a lot of mass to punch through much at distance.
While the P90 and MP7 are indeed a good bit smaller I dont care for the rounds. Historically the 5.7 has not had great success with LE SWAT teams that have used it. Also Ive heard from PMCs that have used the HK MP7 that its a great weapon but you gotta put a good burst into the bad guys the drop them.
Plus you get to the point of range. Id have no qualms engaging a bad guy at 200 meters with a 300 Blk 110-125 grain bullet out of an 8 inch barrel. The 5.7 and the 4.6 dont have a lot of mass to punch through much at distance.
barnbwt
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"Only?" 
MP5k does qualify, I should have remembered it, but I would argue only the 10mm variant is sufficiently powerful to push it above SMG status. Until very recently, there was a sizable gulf between pistol cartridges and carbine catridges that largely went unserved (22 Hornet and 22 Johnson Spitfire being the obvious exception among a few others). No reason the MP5 couldn't run a more PDW cartridge, but that hasn't been HKs focus on that platform.
The M1 Carbine was definitely the first, since its RFP defined the genre
Personally, I think the reason SWAT teams dislike the PDWs they've tried is because they are misusing them. Just like the M1 Carbine, they were not intended for offensive use, but were so handy and easy to train with that military/police strategjsts shoe-horned them into a heavy combat role. Now, perhaps there is not much need for a true "personal defense weapon" in combat zones, simply because our base fortifications tend to be unbreachable, but that obviously isn't the case for John Q Citizen outside a guarded, gated community.
TCB
MP5k does qualify, I should have remembered it, but I would argue only the 10mm variant is sufficiently powerful to push it above SMG status. Until very recently, there was a sizable gulf between pistol cartridges and carbine catridges that largely went unserved (22 Hornet and 22 Johnson Spitfire being the obvious exception among a few others). No reason the MP5 couldn't run a more PDW cartridge, but that hasn't been HKs focus on that platform.
The M1 Carbine was definitely the first, since its RFP defined the genre
Personally, I think the reason SWAT teams dislike the PDWs they've tried is because they are misusing them. Just like the M1 Carbine, they were not intended for offensive use, but were so handy and easy to train with that military/police strategjsts shoe-horned them into a heavy combat role. Now, perhaps there is not much need for a true "personal defense weapon" in combat zones, simply because our base fortifications tend to be unbreachable, but that obviously isn't the case for John Q Citizen outside a guarded, gated community.
TCB
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
110gr out of a 9" barrel is moving out at about 2200fps.
The SIG MCX (not MPX) is a nice-sized PDW (21" OAL with stock folded) with some intermediate caliber performance. I hope it lives up to its promise.
Magnuumpwr
Member
My 3 go to guns not chambers for handgun rounds are the PS90, FS2000, and 300 BO with a 10 1\2" barrel. The PS90 to ammo capacity, the FS2000 for range, and the 300 BO with a suppressor for noise reduction.
I think it would behoove the discussion to clarify what is the definition of a “PDW.” In my view a PDW is essentially a weapon somewhere between a SMG and an assault rifle. A PDW is intended to replace an assault rifle for soldiers who are not in front line combat roles. To fill the role for that it needs to be smaller than an assault rifle. One of the design parameters was the ability to penetrate body armour. Another was to have more range than a submachine gun. It also seems that the new class of PDWs are select fire. Typically PDWs are submachine gun sized but chambered in a cartridge that offers the ability to defeat armour. If it is chambered in a pistol cartridge it is a sub machine gun and not a PDW in the typical sense of that word.
The question is whether downsized assault rifles firing assault rifle cartridges are “PDWs?” I’m thinking of guns such as the AK74SU or the XM 177 Colt Commando. These were also guns designed to bridge the gap between sub gun and assault rifle. The leader in this class of guns is surely the HK416. I don’t know that these guns are really are “PDWs”
In the end, the name used is probably less important than looking at the role it will fill and seeing what is a good fit. If one looks at PDWs one interesting thing is that the modern PDWs have never really been adopted for wide spread use in the role they were designed for. They seemingly have been adopted more not as replacements for assault rifles but rather as replacements for submachine guns.
The question is whether downsized assault rifles firing assault rifle cartridges are “PDWs?” I’m thinking of guns such as the AK74SU or the XM 177 Colt Commando. These were also guns designed to bridge the gap between sub gun and assault rifle. The leader in this class of guns is surely the HK416. I don’t know that these guns are really are “PDWs”
In the end, the name used is probably less important than looking at the role it will fill and seeing what is a good fit. If one looks at PDWs one interesting thing is that the modern PDWs have never really been adopted for wide spread use in the role they were designed for. They seemingly have been adopted more not as replacements for assault rifles but rather as replacements for submachine guns.
VINTAGE-SLOTCARS
member
M 10 in .45 acp,,
11 inch AR with a fiberlite CAR stock. As lightweight as possible. It's not meant to be a long range rifle, more of a short range 'house' gun. It fits several of the points Girodin brought up, except for being select fire.
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If you mean' rifle made into a pistol' the .30 carbine "Enforcer" is a favorite of mine.
Then again the 30 carbine was kind of the original "PDW" an intermediate lightweight short range weapon handed out to vehicle crews and rear guard troops whose primary job wasn't 'rifleman'. It's still a great lightweight defensive arm. There are a number of variant folding collapsing aftermarket stocks that make it even more compact.
Then again the 30 carbine was kind of the original "PDW" an intermediate lightweight short range weapon handed out to vehicle crews and rear guard troops whose primary job wasn't 'rifleman'. It's still a great lightweight defensive arm. There are a number of variant folding collapsing aftermarket stocks that make it even more compact.
Lord Teapot
Member
i would buy a p90 if i could get the one without that long barrel poking out. i like the 50 round magazine, the option for an integral scope, and the small size.
entropy
Member
This. I'm not even a fan of 9mm, and still, the MP5K.First and only "PDW".
Panzerschwein
member
The M1 carbine, while obsolete to the extreme, is one of my favorites because in fact it is the original.
I think a modern M4 is greatly superior to it in every way, but by today's standard neither are really considered PDWs. Basically, what a PDW is is a submachine gun style weapon that fires an intermediate cartridge between that of a pistol and that of a rifle. The 5.7 FN and 4.6 HK are both examples of the type.
I think a modern M4 is greatly superior to it in every way, but by today's standard neither are really considered PDWs. Basically, what a PDW is is a submachine gun style weapon that fires an intermediate cartridge between that of a pistol and that of a rifle. The 5.7 FN and 4.6 HK are both examples of the type.
You can't get a P90 at all as a regular Joe. However, you can get a PS90 SBR. Cost depends on the route you want to take to get there. I have often considered getting another PS90 and SBRing it. They are a very compact, and frankly, a pretty cool little gun. That said I have no real use for one other than cool factor. Part of the reason I sold my 16" PS90 when it was a seller's market. I'm not going to carry around a SBR PS90 for Die Hard fantasy scenarios. If one were inclined to the PS90 is about as small of a ready to go (i.e. no need to unfold or extend stocks) package as you can get. The way the mag sits on top also makes it relatively streamlined compared to other weapons with 30+ round stick mags. For times I actually want to take a small rifle with me, I'd rather have something an actual rifle cartridge. All of my other rifle caliber SBRs kick the snot out of an SBR PS90 in terms of terminal ballistics. I was getting around 2000 FPS out of my 16" (well its about 14" of barrel and then flash hider) PS90 with 40 grain bullets. My 7" AK was getting around 1900 with 123 grain bullets. An 8" 300 Blk can send a 110 grain bullet a bit over 2000 FPS. A 10.5" 5.56 AR will get you about 2700 FPS with M193 (55 grain bullet). My 11" barreled AK only loses about 200 FPS to the 16" gun I compared it to. And at the expense of mag capacity an SBR 458 Socom is a hammer that again gives up a couple hundred FPS to a 16" gun. For 4 legged critter defense it is much more useful than 50 rounds of varmint ammo though.
As to optics, my PS90 had the factory ring sight. I would not buy another one with that sight. Rather, I'd get a flat top and put an aimpoint micro on it. The ring sight and trigger are the only real knocks I could come up with for the PS90 (the 5.7x28 round excepted). It ran like a top. I fire thousands of rounds and never had any kind of stoppage. It was accurate enough to kill a jackrabbit at a measured 175 yards. Overall I liked it for what it was. However, for plinking and shooting varmints there were cheaper options and for anything else there, were to my mind, better options.
Lord Teapot
Member
i've never class 3'd anything, i don't want to go on the atf's special list :l
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