M1 Carbine w/Softpoints vs. AR with your Favorite Ammo

[justin22885]

close range, you could also throw other pistol calibers in there, 45acp and 9mm both have advantages over the 30 carbine, big advantage being the design of self defense ammo with 9mm expanding close to .75" and 45acp expanding closer to 1" in diameter with some of the JHPs out there.. so give me a 45acp integrally suppressed submachine gun pushing 230 grain self defense loads pushed up to 1100fps with 45 super loadings

out of a 10" barrel thats going to be pretty damn close to the energy produced by an M1 carbine with its full length ammo, do better when it enters a target, and be lighter for me to carry around, cheaper to stockpile and fits in a pistol

 

[Tommygunn]

Let's try not to confuse the new shooters here. I have never seen a reloading manual have a section for carbine cartridges. Cartridges are either classed as rifle or handgun (pistol). Some pistol cartridges are used in carbines but that doesn't make them rifle cartridges. Because the 30 Carbine was designed as a carbine cartridge during WW2 it doesn't make it a rifle cartridge by modern definition. If the cartridge were designed today it would be a pistol cartridge to be used in a pistol cartridge carbine (PCC) which is exactly what an M1 carbine is as it was designed as defensive weapon to replace a pistol. The Army already had a very good battle rifle.

Here is some criteria to help you figure out if it's a rifle cartridge or a pistol cartridge by modern definition. Most modern rifle cartridges have a working pressure above 40,000 psi and have a bottle neck case. Most modern pistol cartridges have a working pressure below 40,000 psi and have a straight wall case. There are a few exceptions for both but as a general rule this is the criteria.

The 30 carbine resembles a lengthened semi-auto pistol cartridge more than a rifle cartridge. It has a straight wall case and a working pressure of 40,000 psi. or lower. Most factory ammo is loaded below 40,000 psi. That was a military spec that is no longer used in the industry.

The newest Hornady manual calls it a pistol cartridge (load data in both sections) but you call it whatever you want. Just don't call it a "carbine cartridge" because "carbine" is the description of a firearm, not a cartridge.

The .30 carbine round is not "straight-wall;" the case has a slight taper to it. An easy way to check is to lay one flat and roll it along a smooth surface like a countertop. You'll note it does not go in a straight line.
BTW .... is a .22RF a rifle cartridge or a pistol cartridge .... I have both rifles & pistols that use it ...

 

[Panzerschwein]

Jim Cirillo loved the .30 carbine with soft points for police work.

Look him up. His opinion should matter probably more than anyone elses on this thread IMHO.

 

[X-Rap]

You see, the problem with dredging up old gunfighters and citing what tickled their fancy back in the day is that they didn't have the modern weapon and ammo of today to compare it with.
Pure speculation but I have a hard time believing that a real deal guy like Cirillo wouldn't be quite taken by the performance of an M4 with an Aimpoint or EOTec and modern defensive ammo for his stake outs.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The .30 carbine round is not "straight-wall;" the case has a slight taper to it. An easy way to check is to lay one flat and roll it along a smooth surface like a countertop. You'll note it does not go in a straight line.
BTW .... is a .22RF a rifle cartridge or a pistol cartridge .... I have both rifles & pistols that use it ...

Do you mean tapered like the 9 mm pistol cartridge? Probably the most common of all centerfire pistol cartridges in present use. I know 30 carb is tapered, I've reloaded thousands of them. I have to lube the cases to get them to go thru the sizer/decapper die without a lot of pressure on the press.

I don't see it listed in any reloading manual. I suppose it's a versatile straight wall cartridge like the 44 Henry that was used in both revolvers and rifles. All 22 rimfires are ancient black powder designs. The 22 LR was developed in 1887 making it a BP cartridge. The 30 carbine was developed around 1941 using smokeless powder. There were lots of BP cartridges used in both pistol and rifle in the 19th century. Not so much in the last 100 years due to the invention of smokeless powder and cases with shoulders.

 

[strambo]

Terminally, I'd give the edge to 5.56, but a .30 Carbine soft point is a solid performer.

As mentioned the AR also brings better ergonomics, typically twice the capacity, and easy to mount optics/light.

That said, an M1 Carbine with an Ultimak rail (not a permanent alteration), micro RDS, and light wouldn't give up much, if anything, in real world defensive use to an AR from CQB to 100yds IMO.

I have both, if I lived in a ban state, I'd make my M1 Carbine compliant with whatever silly law (like remove the bayo lug) and roll with that.

 

[peacebutready]

close range, you could also throw other pistol calibers in there, 45acp and 9mm both have advantages over the 30 carbine, big advantage being the design of self defense ammo with 9mm expanding close to .75" and 45acp expanding closer to 1" in diameter with some of the JHPs out there.. so give me a 45acp integrally suppressed submachine gun pushing 230 grain self defense loads pushed up to 1100fps with 45 super loadings

out of a 10" barrel thats going to be pretty damn close to the energy produced by an M1 carbine with its full length ammo, do better when it enters a target, and be lighter for me to carry around, cheaper to stockpile and fits in a pistol

9mm and .45 defense ammo was created for pistol velocities. I've seen data showing the same bullet at +P velocities penetrating less than standard pressure velocities. In a carbine, 9mm and .45 loads will have a substantially higher velocity. Will hollow-points mushroom out too quickly and not penetrate enough or optimally? I don't know.

Maybe soft-point ammo should be made for pistol caliber carbines. Or maybe hollow-points with a thicker copper jacket, so the round doesn't mushroom out too quickly at carbine velocities.

 

[justin22885]

those velocities they were designed for in a pistol exist at what?.. 20 feet? out of a carbine you may see those same velocities out to 100 yards instead.. so at the extended range youre going to want a pistol caliber carbine for your bullets velocity will be in that range for expansion by time it reaches your target.. up close its still going to do more damage than .30 carbine, itll simply do even more damage at distance

worse case scenario they mushroom in flight but i really dont think thats much of a risk, ive never seen it happen, your more likely to get no mushrooming at close range as a side effect

 

[mavracer]

Boy you can sure tell the difference between folks that read something about ballistics and the folks that have shot living stuff with guns.lol

 

[justin22885]

Terminally, I'd give the edge to 5.56, but a .30 Carbine soft point is a solid performer.

As mentioned the AR also brings better ergonomics, typically twice the capacity, and easy to mount optics/light.

That said, an M1 Carbine with an Ultimak rail (not a permanent alteration), micro RDS, and light wouldn't give up much, if anything, in real world defensive use to an AR from CQB to 100yds IMO.

I have both, if I lived in a ban state, I'd make my M1 Carbine compliant with whatever silly law (like remove the bayo lug) and roll with that.

or just make a new rifle designed around the .30 carbine, but is a more modern, better designed weapon? then youd have all the ergonomics and add-ons youd want for it

 

[mavracer]

Just what's wrong with the design and ergonomics of a M1 carbine?
Controls are easy to reach and it's much easier to clear in the unlikely event it jams.

 

[CoalTrain49]

^For one thing the receivers are expensive to build from billet. The latest crop of new carbines produced use MIM receivers. The companies that build them usually don't advertise that. There is a pretty hot market now for the old USGI receivers which can be rebarreled.

It's a great design (and cartridge) but pretty hard to stay true to the original spec and compete with the price of an AR.

I have a USGI carbine that I shoot frequently. I prefer it to an AR but to get one in good condition you are looking at parting with about 1K. Rebuilds will be more.

 

[M1key]

I've owned a few M-1 carbines in my day. They ain't all "uber reliable" either. Visit one of the forums to validate that. The AR is superior in just about every way I can think of.

BTW, there are plenty of hero cops in the past who had a "pet" firearm they liked to carry. Doesn't mean it's the quintessential go-to weapon for everyone.

People fall in love with a type of firearm based more on fantasy that the fact that at the end of the day it's just another tool in the box.

M

 

[ku4hx]

Boy you can sure tell the difference between folks that read something about ballistics and the folks that have shot living stuff with guns.lol

+1 Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[amd6547]

Well I shoot the AR, the Kalashnikov, and an M1 carbine. In the past, I shot 9mm carbines as well.
The 30carbine with a proper expanding bullet is a much better fighting tool than any semi auto pistol caliber carbine, save the largely nonexistant 10mm carbine.
I like the AR and AK very much, but the M1 carbine just clicks with me. it is very light and handy, has a great set of sights, and points very naturally.
The 110gn bullet at 1950fps has good penetration and reliable expansion.
About a week ago, I shot box of Hornady Critical Defense at 100yds, and it shot so well that when I got home, I ordered five more boxes.
I got my Inland M1 from the CMP a few years ago for $450. It was a firearm I had wanted since I was a kid, and shooting it gives me a lot of joy.
There are many choices available today for self defense. All are capable of doing the job, and so is a the 30 carbine, a weapon and cartridge designed and optimized for the CQB role.

 

[X-Rap]

My experience with the M1 Carbine has been less than stellar with regards to reliability.
It's a fun little gun but I'll take an AR over it any day for a PD long gun.
If some have proven reliability with theirs, more power to them, I have a couple carbines in pistol calibers but they aren't really in my personal and home defense line up either although any of the pistol calibers as well as the .30 are capable rounds with the right bullets at ranges under 100 yds none of them stand equal to the 5.56 with its best bullets.

 

[amd6547]

Well, my last range visit a week ago, I put about 100 rounds through my Inland. Ammo was PRVI soft points and FMJ as well as 25 rounds of the Critical Defense.
There were no jams whatsoever, in fact it functioned like a well made typewriter.
Not surprising, since the barrel was made by Underwood!
The only jams I experienced with this Inland was shortly after I bought it. I was using Magtech ammo which had loose primer pockets and would drop spent primers when fired...a primer fell in the action and prevented the bolt from closing. Stopped using Magtech, and problem solved.
At the end of my range visit last week, I finished off with a 15rd mag dump at 25yds, shooting as fast as I could get a flash sight picture...

 

[justin22885]

hmm, a bullpup .30 carbine would make an interesting PDW

 

[briansmithwins]

hmm, a bullpup .30 carbine would make an interesting PDW

50 years ago, sure.

There are better alternatives now.

BSW

 

[justin22885]

actually not really, looking at ballistics of 5.7x28 im really not impressed.. a 5.7mm johnson /22 spitfire is capable of beating it, might be a better option for a PDW cartrdge

anyone here try 22 spitfire/5.7 johnson?

 

[M1key]

22 spitfire/5.7 johnson?

An M1 in that chambering would bring us back to the Mini-14.




M

 

[Ruger/1022]

5.7johnson out of a carbine has no recoil and at 2800fps and 700 foot pounds at the muzzle , will get the job done.

 

[Gordon]

I have them all and for hunting around and outside my home compound and garage I will take my little Noveske Diplomat pistol with the buffer tube tucked into my class 3 vest using BlackHills 77 grain ammo. I really like the M1 with remington softpoints as a live stock in the pasture slaughter gun.
The AR is much more accurate at any range
the Carbine runs out of real steam at about 100 yards according to MY sheep and goat tests.
The carbine actually can jam , but is easily cleared
A good modern M4 based AR system is probably more reliable but harder to clear if it does "jam"
An M1 carbine makes a superb woman or young adult rifle for defense with out extensive training
Either work well within 100 yards

 

[Ironicaintit]

the M1 carbine just clicks with me. it is very light and handy, has a great set of sights, and points very naturally.

Thats it for me, too. The 5.56 may be the superior cartridge, but I cant fire the AR in haste, nearly as well as I can the .30 carbine.
And its made of steel and wood! Im biased

 

[justin22885]

what do you guys think about .221 fireball? loaded up to 5.56 pressures with .223/5.56 brass and its only slightly longer than .30 carbine, and in barrel lengths of 10 or lower, its about a match for 5.56