Practicality of stocked pistols?

[cluttonfred]

Setting aside NFA issues and the AR arm brace nonsense, I wonder if anyone has any personal experience that they could share with ordinary pistols used with shouder stocks? I mean pistols issued with stocks like some models of the Browning HP or Mauser C96 and Glocks with aftermarket stocks (not full carbine conversions, and of course with the legalities duly observed).

I have always thought that the idea seemed good in principle in the PDW role -- a weapon for folks encumbered with other equipment or performing another role that can't or just don't want to carry a rifle. You still have the ability to draw and fire a pistol on short notice, but once the bad guys are in the area and you are on alert, attaching a stock and sling would make for a much more effective weapon out to 50 or even 100 meters. Yet the stocked pistol in any form is pretty rare.

Holsterable, stocked SMGs (or semi-auto variants) with the stock permanently attached (like the old CZ Skorpion, Steyr TMP-derived B&T MP9 and even the H&K MP7) blur the lines even further.

I am just curious how practical a stocked pistol is in the real world.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Get a regular pistol, say a .22, and a length of of wood about 18 inches long a 1/2 inch in width.

Grip the gun AND the piece of wood together while resting the other end of the wood against one's shoulder (but do not attach it to the gun.) Fire off hand with the pseudo-stock and off hand without it.

Judge accordingly.

Deaf

 

[cluttonfred]

Sounds like my Marlin Papoose, which I love. ;-)

 

[Stony]

I've tried firing an old Hi-Power with a shoulder stock, and forget it. You have pistol sights about 10 inches in front of your nose and they just don't work that close.

 

[Sam1911]

Ever notice how some "great" ideas just never really go anywhere? Folks have been playing around with shoulder stocks for handguns just about forever, and the idea never seems to have taken the world by storm even back before 1934 when the NFA came into being. And even the militarys and police forces of the world have made only occasional, very minor, efforts into this, and most stopped fooling with it many decades ago.

Just no great benefit in practice, no matter how good the theory seems.

 

[StrawHat]

I used a stock on a couple of Colt 1860s and a Harper's Ferry 1855. Each time, the handguns would hit in a different place from where they were sighted in without the stock.

I imagine it would be the same with a modern handgun. Just practice shooting your handgun at long range. It is not that difficult.

Kevin

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I figured stocked pistols didn't catch on because they were too much of a hassle for the benefit for most folks. The carrying around of the accessory stock just isn't convenient and if you carry it on the gun, you might as well have a carbine, but a carbine gets you more velocity. The only real benefit was improved ability to shoot well.

I do know that there is a huge benefit when going from an MP5 pistol to a shoulder stock version when it comes to accuracy.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ever notice how some "great" ideas just never really go anywhere? Folks have been playing around with shoulder stocks for handguns just about forever, and the idea never seems to have taken the world by storm even back before 1934 when the NFA came into being. And even the militarys and police forces of the world have made only occasional, very minor, efforts into this, and most stopped fooling with it many decades ago.

Just no great benefit in practice, no matter how good the theory seems.

Well this is now, and not then. There are some great red dot sights and holo sights now made for pistols.

Glock even came out with a extra long 10mm with a slide mounted red-dot style sight.

Now if it holds up to all that pounding, add a shoulder stock, and maybe instead of 10mm use 9x25 Dillon, you have a handgun that if you want, you can make it a short range rifle.

Deaf

 

[el Godfather]

Stock on pistols are just for fun to say the most as for their practicality. I have used it on Steckin and it was fund to shoot. I would much rather prefer a Krink to a stocked pistol.....but thats just me

 

[Old Fuff]

Metallic Silhouette shooters with unsupported handguns can hit and knock down rams @ 200 meters. Think what they might do with shoulder stocks.

For grins. The old (1896) Mauser "Broomhandle" rear sight was calibrated out to 1000 meters - for good reason.

During the middle 1930's Ed McGivern experimented with an 8 3/4" shoulder stocked S&W 357 Magnum and hit man-sized targets at 600 yards.

Obviously the concept works, even though it isn't often used.

 

[paracordkydexcummins]

I think it could be practical if approached with some things in mind. Use a red dot or similar make sure the relief range is in your goal positions. A folding stock that works with a holster even if it requires a cover garment. It may not work for everyone but for security work it could work well. I have seen guys use a retention cord to give a 3rd point of contact. I have also seen sbrs that are glock based and the owners like them.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

You still have the ability to draw and fire a pistol on short notice, but once the bad guys are in the area and you are on alert, attaching a stock and sling would make for a much more effective weapon out to 50 or even 100 meters.

Practicality? I don't see much. If I'm going into a combat situation I sure as hell am going to bring a rifle, or at least a pistol caliber carbine. Handguns are meant to be side arms for a reason.

I think it could be fun on the range, but that's about the only real purpose I see to them.

JMO

 

[Sam1911]

Well this is now, and not then. There are some great red dot sights and holo sights now made for pistols.

Sure. Modern optical sights can often work at either handgun or pistol eye-relief. So that's a possible solution to one of the major problems to overcome in making this a "practical" idea.

Now if it holds up to all that pounding, add a shoulder stock, and maybe instead of 10mm use 9x25 Dillon, you have a handgun that if you want, you can make it a short range rifle.

Sure could. Again setting aside the NFA problems, it would (still, as before) be possible to do this and to get some use out of it.

As not enough of the buying public seem to be willing to spend their money on pistol-cartridge carbines to convince many makers to bring them back into their product lines, and as military and LEO users continue the trend away from sub-machine guns for any uses, the question of whether this is "practical" or not seems to be unanswered.

It does scratch that gear-geek itch for a "do-it-all" gun, of course. (I could carry this concealed today, and hunt small game with it as a sort of un-ergonomic rifle tomorrow! Yaaay!) But today's gun nut tends to have a closet full of guns for every occasion and rarely needs that capability. And history has shown that nobody carries around their pistol stocks with them, so (like the vaunted multi-caliber rifle everyone always claims to want) it just adds to the pile of bits of random gear that get left home and eventually lost.

I don't think fixing the sighting question really changes anything at all about how useful this idea is, and I don't think it would take off today to any greater degree than it failed to do 150 years ago.

It will remain one of those things you occasionally see someone play with because it's pretty nifty, even though not terribly useful.

 

[oneounceload]

Ever notice how some "great" ideas just never really go anywhere? Folks have been playing around with shoulder stocks for handguns just about forever, and the idea never seems to have taken the world by storm even back before 1934 when the NFA came into being. And even the militarys and police forces of the world have made only occasional, very minor, efforts into this, and most stopped fooling with it many decades ago.

That's because we now have these being made:

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/products-capabilities/personal-defense-weapons.html

About as close to the original idea in a modern format

 

[strambo]

I don't see the demand or need for a pistol with a stock vs. just a handy pistol or a PDW. I can't imagine CCW-ing a handgun plus the stock on my body. What role would someone carry this contraption in where they wouldn't select a PDW instead? Secret Service has no issue carrying PDW's concealed under a jacket.

If NFA was no factor, I'd have lots more toys, but no pistol stocks. Handguns, sub-guns, PDWs, carbines...

 

[Sunray]

A Hi-Power or Mauser C96 with a shoulder stock is/was for cavalry. The latter as a machine pistol too. Weren't supposed to be fired like a rifle/carbine. Think butt stock in the shoulder, but shooting across the body and off arm, not forward from said shoulder(easier to do than describe). Gave the troopie a compact firearm without the expense of issuing a carbine and a pistol.
"...they just don't work that close..." Glasses?
P90s are about vehicles and having a wee rifle for the PBI to lug around.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Get a regular pistol, say a .22, and a length of of wood about 18 inches long a 1/2 inch in width.

Grip the gun AND the piece of wood together while resting the other end of the wood against one's shoulder (but do not attach it to the gun.) Fire off hand with the pseudo-stock and off hand without it.

Judge accordingly.

What I have done with my Colt Woodsman is cut a stock about 22 inches long, with the butt end wider and shaped like a rifle butt stock. The other end is cut to match the backstrap of the gun, and has a thumb notch, so a normal grip holds the buttstock and gun together.

This particular pistol is extremely accurate and the "shoulder stock" does make it easier to take advantage of the pistol's potential. But it's clumsy, you can't carry it easily in the ready position and so on -- good idea but not really practical.

 

[joem1945]

I have fired my arti luger with the shoulder stock. It helps quite a bit and follow shots are faster.

 

[Bezoar]

well look at it this way.

pistol sized AR guns have been around since the 1980s. panther created the "pink panther' for military/leo usage. 8 inch barrel, select fire. WITH A SHOULDER STOCK for accuracy.

now so many companies are trying to create legal, paper free versions of butt stocks for these pistols. because accuracy SUCKS because you got to much to hold onto. and every review of the sig brace and all, accuracy doubles.

 

[barnbwt]

"Ever notice how some "great" ideas just never really go anywhere? Folks have been playing around with shoulder stocks for handguns just about forever, and the idea never seems to have taken the world by storm even back before 1934 when the NFA came into being. And even the militarys and police forces of the world have made only occasional, very minor, efforts into this, and most stopped fooling with it many decades ago."

To be fair, autoloaders weren't exactly sweeping the civilian world pre-NFA, either (so there was no one to defend them in the US). At least not compared to single shots/repeaters/revolvers. I would strongly argue the Mauser would see great benefit from a stock; it's so unwieldy as a pistol to be very nearly unusable as it is (almost as a bad as an AR, but with no buffer tube to counterbalance, brace, or shoulder on). Add to it the vestigial grips and towering bore axis, and shooting is quite painful, indeed.

"As not enough of the buying public seem to be willing to spend their money on pistol-cartridge carbines to convince many makers to bring them back into their product lines"

The latest SHOT show seems to indicate otherwise. The whole Brace Fracas 2015 could possibly snuff it out, but there are over a half dozen makers bringing PCCs to market this year. My suspicion is it is the result of high 22LR prices for plinking, combined with a lot of AR owners maturing to the fact that their rifles are actually quite obnoxious for casual shooting (i.e. a lot more powerful than necessary for <100yd target practice). That's not even getting into the defense category preferences various folks have.

I think that detachable stocks are a non-starter, but compact folding/collapsing stocks could rule if NFA is either nuked or becomes much easier (cash and go taxation, vs. this registration nonsense). If we see it on almost all rifles being offered, why would it not be equally (if not more) viable on 'tactical pistols' whose very purpose is to be small while retaining the stability of a rifle? The VZ61 is supposed to be tons more useful with even that piddly little wire stock (I'll get around to SBR'ing mine one day), as is the BT9.

Factory AOW's like the TMP are also a non-starter. I think history has shown that a mere foregrip isn't good enough for a weapon to be substantially more stable than a common or 'tactical' pistol. Hence why the TMP turned into the BT9 with a folding stock and a vertical foregrip. FWIW, the stocked-pistol was the original PDW concept, from before PDW cartridges existed.

"now so many companies are trying to create legal, paper free versions of butt stocks for these pistols. because accuracy SUCKS because you got to much to hold onto. and every review of the sig brace and all, accuracy doubles."
You see, it's a safety feature

TCB

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I guess when someone says "pistol with a stock" I see an AR or MP5 pistol with a stock...didn't remember the Lugers, Broomhandles and such with a stock.

I have shot MP5 pistols and AR pistols as pistols and then shot them with a stock (which makes them an SBR) and there is no comparison. These things are completely different animals with a stock - they become an SBR. I have no idea if that translates to some of the old time pistols/revolvers with stocks.

An MP5 SBR is a beautiful thing. Without the stock? Pretty much a monstrosity.

VooDoo

 

[C0untZer0]

I've got the 16" barrel for the Glock 17L from IGB, but it is inaccurate. A browning design moving the entire barrel is just not a good idea for a carbine.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I guess when someone says "pistol with a stock" I see an AR or MP5 pistol with a stock...didn't remember the Lugers, Broomhandles and such with a stock.

I have shot MP5 pistols and AR pistols as pistols and then shot them with a stock (which makes them an SBR) and there is no comparison. These things are completely different animals with a stock - they become an SBR. I have no idea if that translates to some of the old time pistols/revolvers with stocks.

An MP5 SBR is a beautiful thing. Without the stock? Pretty much a monstrosity.

VooDoo

Stocked MP5s and ARs are indeed useful, and yes as an SBR are capable of all sorts of role filling activities.

The old broom handles and such though..... eh. They tried to turn a sidearm into a primary weapon. Maybe it was out of desperation, but you sacrifice the power and penetration of a longer barreled gun when just adding a stock to a hand gun.

They are interesting collectors pieces though. I've had my eye on a Swiss 1882 revolver with a stock for quite awhile. The asking price though is close to $4000, and I'm not willing to pay that.

I think when you look at the plethora of PDW and bullpup designs out there today that take advantage of longer barrels, it really negates the utility of the old addable stock guns like Lugers and a few revolvers, if they had any utility to begin with that is.

 

[481]

If I have to "invest" in the additional bulk of a shoulder stock on a pistol with questionable "return" (accuracy?), I'd just as soon carry a full power rifle (and cartridge). The main benefit of a pistol (at least as I see it) is its compact size and reasonable accuracy at short range (< 50 yards). Why some try to turn their pistols into an MBR (or something else) is beyond me, but I also understand that 'tinkering about' is kind of fun.

 

[Old Fuff]

The rational behind the Mauser "96 Broomhandle" and Artillery model Luger, both equipped with combination shoulder stocks/holsters was to arm machine gun crews other then the gunner. After the primary machine gun was set up the others were supposed to assemble the shoulder stock on the pistol, and defend the enplanement against an infantry attack from the other side. The crew, carrying a heavy tripod and ammunition, would have found a full sized rifle or even carbine to be a serious handicap. For their needs the shoulder stocked/long barreled handgun was a good solution.