"Public Gatherings" CCW off limits in GA?

[hankdatank1362]

From handgunlaw.us :

Georgia Code 1611127
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he carries (Police, Military and others listed under GC
1611130
are exempt)
· To or while at a public gathering any explosive compound, firearm, or knife designed for the purpose of offense
and defense.
· (b) For the purpose of this Code section, "public gathering" shall include, but shall not be limited to, athletic or
sporting events, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, publicly owned or operated buildings,
or establishments at which alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises. Nothing in this Code
section shall otherwise prohibit the carrying of a firearm in any other public place by a person licensed or
permitted to carry such firearm by this part.
· (c) This Code section shall not apply to competitors participating in organized sport shooting events. Law
enforcement officers, peace officers retired from state or federal law enforcement agencies, judges, magistrates,
solicitorsgeneral,
and district attorneys may carry pistols in publicly owned or operated buildings.
· (d) It is an affirmative defense to a violation of this Code section if a person notifies a law enforcement officer or
other person employed to provide security for a public gathering of the presence of such item as soon as possible
after learning of its presence and surrenders or secures such item as directed by the law enforcement officer or
other person employed to provide security for a public gathering."

So deos this mean I cannot carry concealed when I attend a church function at the Marriot Convention Center next week? It's not at a church, but it is a "public gathering"... which is exactly why I do want to carry!

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Georgia has some of the worst carry laws in the nation.

Does this mean I cannot carry concealed when I attend a church function at the Marriot Convention Center next week?

No, you can't carry. Carry is not permitted at church functions, whether located in a church building or not. If your church had an official church event at a county park, where it IS legal to carry in general, you still couldn't carry because it is a church function.

The "public gathering" language in Georgia law is so ambiguous ("shall not be limited to") it could encompass any people gathered for any purpose. There is some case law that narrows it a little, but even the enumerated places in the code section above make it VERY difficult to legally carry most places you go day-to-day in Georgia. Especially restaurants, since most sell alcohol.

There is currently pending legislation to fix this, but it was unanimously defeated in the senate and is now stalled in committee.

 

[Rumble]

I traveled to Georgia for my honeymoon, and researching the carry regs gave me the impression that it was pretty tough to carry and get through a day without running into one restriction or another.

That aside, I loved my visit.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Hank, I see you are from SC. Just making sure you know that an SC carry permit is not honored in Georgia.

Rumble - You're right. Here's a short list of off-limits in GA:

- Restaurants (sell alcohol).
- Highway rest stop / city / county park bathroom facilities and pavilions (publicly owned buildings).
- On, or even "a reasonable distance from the route" of public transportation, including terminal facilities and bus stops, or terminals of common carriers (like UPS) including the parking lots--This one is a felony (anti-hijacking law passed after 9/11).
- Churches and church functions, whether on church property or not.
- Sporting events
- Political rallies
- State parks
- Court houses, city / county / state administration buildings.
- Any building paid for or operated by tax dollars. This would include places like the zoo, many museums, etc.
- Schools of any sort, both public and private. It's even worse as a student of a school: A student may not posses a firearm within 1000 feet of the school property. This includes colleges--Driving on the road in front of your college campus with a firearm in the vehicle is a felony.
- Anywhere people are gathered for a particular purpose (ie. a gun show, music concert, etc.).
- Stone Mountain Park. It does not fall into any of the above categories, but has it's own 'sovereignty' as an 'authority' and is exempt from the state preemption law (very complex situation). If discovered carrying in the park, you will be fined and your firearm will be forfeited.
- Parking lots of any of the above!!! Atty. General Opinion - "Finally, I would note that a parking area on the grounds of and in close proximity to an area which is a public gathering is a part of the public gathering and is thus subject to the prohibitions of this Code Section."
- Carry while traveling to any of the above is also prohibited!!! (O.C.Ga 16-11-127 "guilty of a misdemeanor when he or she carries to or while at a public gathering")

 

[hankdatank1362]

Yeah, I found that out too. I had to get a non-res PA permit. It only cost me $26, and I had it in two weeks.

Thankyou for your help. Anything else I should know when I go to Atlanta next week?

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Anything else I should know when I go to Atlanta next week?

Situational awareness is key. There are many parts of downtown Atlanta that are pretty bad, and you can quickly transition from a "good" to "bad" area without any warning. Depending on which report you read, Atlanta ranks as either the 13th or 22nd most dangerous city in America. Violent crime is up since some of the New Orleans street gangs relocated here after Katrina. To be frank, race relations has become a powder keg issue in Atlanta that is about to explode.

If you stick with the "tourist" spots you are generally OK, but watch out for MARTA (the subway/bus service). It can be pretty rough.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Man, GA has some effed up laws. I can't legally carry TO the function, much less at it!?!?!?! Wow.

I appreciate all your help.

 

[Samuel Adams]

I went to the Eastman Guns Show in Savannah yesterday. It was a disappointment but that is for another thread. Posted on the door to the Savannah Civic Center was a sign forbidding CCW inside and that violators will be charged under the Public Gathering clause.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Just to illustrate more silliness:

Case law has stated that the following places ARE restricted as public gatherings (ie. people were convicted of illegal carry in these circumstances):
- A gathering of people in a parking lot after a shooting earlier occurred.
- The parking lot of an Elk's lodge where teenagers loiter. (Hubbard vs. Georgia)

In the good news, the Attorney General has clarified that the following don't constitute a "public gathering:"
- McDonald's, and other "public places" AG Opinion
- Shopping malls, except areas where a "public gathering" is occurring inside the mall (ie. waiting to see Santa Claus or a fashion show). AG Opinion.

 

[Winchester 73]

I just leave my Glock in the hotel safe when I make my yearly visit to beautiful Savannah and go out on foot.
I,perhaps foolishly, go naked rather than run the risk of GA's draconian labryrinth of gun regulations.

 

[makanut]

Georgia does have some pretty draconian carry laws.

 

[Rumble]

I just leave my Glock in the hotel safe when I make my yearly visit to beautiful Savannah and go out on foot.
I,perhaps foolishly, go naked rather than run the risk of GA's draconian labryrinth of gun regulations.

Pretty much how I handled it - we locks it in the safe and then we goes out and we takes our chances.

 

[EAdams]

I was in Atlanta around the Hard Rock Cafe / Peachtree Center area for a concert last month. All the police sat on one corner in front of the Hard Rock chatting, meanwhile every single corner in the rest of the area had at least one 'look out' on it who would watch you the entire time you were coming and going. Twice I had someone cross across the street at a diagonal coming straight towards my girlfriend and me. Had to perform some evasive actions to keep the 21 foot buffer intact. Even had one person follow us for about 20 feet. I will NOT be going back to Atlanta with out at least a group of 4-6 people.

 

[buck00]

The "public gathering" language in Georgia law is so ambiguous ("shall not be limited to") it could encompass any people gathered for any purpose.

It is how the local cops, DA, or judge wants to interpret this... so in most cases you could be in big trouble (if caught) unless you have a high priced lawyer.

I recall a story posted on THR awhile back about a guy standing trial in GA for being caught carrying "in public". The direct quote of the judge was something like "Son, even if you're standing in line for a water fountain, that is a public gathering. I find you guilty."

So it basically brings up the question - what is the point of GA allowing CCW if they make such irrational restrictions on it?

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

Welcome to the Lawyer's Playground: Ambiguity.

 

[stormspotter]

You cannot even carry a "knife designed for the purpose of offense or defense" .

Sounds like they care more for the protection of their criminals than they do for their law abiding citizens.

 

[mole]

So it basically brings up the question - what is the point of GA allowing CCW if they make such irrational restrictions on it?

I just finished a firearms safety course provided by the local sherrif's office. The instructor stated that a permit was pretty much worthless except that in case of an incident you could show it to the present officers to show that you had pasted a background check and where a "pretty decent guy."

The local officers/deputies around here are pretty realistic and are generally pro-gun.

 

[catfish101]

"

knife designed for the purpose of offense or defense

What does that mean? I am sure a broad sword would fall into that but what about a pocket knife?

 

[hankdatank1362]

This is ridiculous. I'm not about to go gallavanting around an unfamiliar city unarmed. Frankly, I plan on carrying my SIG 226, my J-frame as BUG (I get to buy a new ankle holster!), my Kershaw Blur, and maybe some Fox Labs OC or a telescpoing baton. (Couldn't find anything about the baton in the laws.) Also plan on creating some form of throw-down dummy wallet, just in case.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm a country boy, and really have never been to a big city, excpet once when I was in DC for three days.

Dere's evil in dem dere big cities. But the lil' lady's got 'er heart set on goin', so I reckon I'm a gonna taker anyways.

 

[Norm357]

With the exception of that fool in Newnan last year (and that charge was tossed), can anyone cite a single case where someone has been convicted of carrying at a public gathering?

I'm not trying to stir the puddin, I think the way the laws are need to be changed. However, Most of my friends are Cops, and in conversations with them, they told me that they use this law/s to stack charges on someone. (That sounds worse that what I mean, but I hope you get the idea.)

 

[jrfoxx]

- On, or even "a reasonable distance from the route" of public transportation, including terminal facilities and bus stops, or terminals of common carriers (like UPS) including the parking lots--This one is a felony (anti-hijacking law passed after 9/11).

anyone from GA have any more details on the above quote? Sounds to me like a cop/judge could interpret that to mean you cant carry on the sidewalk or street of any road that the public bus sytems uses, which I'd think would pretty well eliminate the entire downtown of most cities.....
And a felony no less?
Wow.:banghead:

 

[Winchester 73]

Quote:
- On, or even "a reasonable distance from the route" of public transportation, including terminal facilities and bus stops, or terminals of common carriers (like UPS) including the parking lots--This one is a felony (anti-hijacking law passed after 9/11).

anyone from GA have any more details on the above quote? Sounds to me like a cop/judge could interpret that to mean you cant carry on the sidewalk or street of any road that the public bus sytems uses, which I'd think would pretty well eliminate the entire downtown of most cities.....
And a felony no less?
Wow.

This is why a poster on another forum who lives in Atlanta said a few years ago, the only thing he could safely do with his GA carry permit was go to the sidewalk in front of his house,look in both directions to check out the action, and then walk back inside.
I thought he was joking until I read GA's gun regs.He was serious.

 

[Feud]

What the good people of Georgia don't seem to realize is that your typical Zombie has no regard for Gun Free zones.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Agreed, the law is usually applied to increase the charges against somebody who has committed other crimes. However, Atlanta is not a pro-gun area. In fact, Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin is part of Bloomberg's coalition against gun shops.

I'm not a cop or an Atlanta DA's office insider, but I would expect that you WILL receive charges if you use an illegally carried weapon in self defense. By proving yourself to be a law breaker by carrying illegally, it will not improve your chances with a jury--which will likely be anti-self defense if pulled from the Atlanta city community.

Regardless, by carrying against the law, you are risking a misdemeanor conviction (or a felony with possibility of 20 years in state prison in the case of carry on MARTA). Consider that firearms-related misdemeanor will probably cause you to lose your carry permit, and a felony will end your firearms ownership days.

That said, YOU are responsible for your security, as well as any consequences of your actions. Do note that many of the tourist destinations in Atlanta use magnetometers and search all bags at entrances. I can attest that this is the case at the World of Coca-Cola and the Georgia Aquarium. I can't say about the convention centers.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

- On, or even "a reasonable distance from the route" of public transportation, including terminal facilities and bus stops, or terminals of common carriers (like UPS) including the parking lots--This one is a felony (anti-hijacking law passed after 9/11).

anyone from GA have any more details on the above quote?

Sure. This is complicated, involving several code sections. Start with this one:

O.C.G.A. § 16-12-127
Prohibition on firearms, hazardous substances, knives, or other devices; penalty; affirmative defenses

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person, with the intention of avoiding or interfering with a security measure or of introducing into a terminal any explosive, destructive device, or hoax device as defined in Code Section 16-7-80; firearm; hazardous substance as defined by Code Section 12-8-92; or knife or other device designed or modified for the purpose of offense and defense, to:

(1) Have any such item on or about his or her person, or

(2) Place or cause to be placed or attempt to place or cause to be placed any such item:

(A) In a container or freight of a transportation company;

(B) In the baggage or possessions of any person or any transportation company without the knowledge of the passenger or transportation company; or

(C) Aboard such aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle.

This section sounds like it makes it illegal to get on a bus, plane, etc. with a gun, right? Well yes, it does, but we need to take a closer look at the definition of the word "terminal." Note the emphasized (mine) points:

O.C.G.A. § 16-12-122
Definitions

(10) "Terminal" means an aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle station, depot, any such transportation facility, or infrastructure relating thereto operated by a transportation company or governmental entity or authority. This term includes a reasonable area immediately adjacent to any designated stop along the route traveled by any coach or rail vehicle operated by a transportation company or governmental entity operating aircraft, bus, or rail vehicle transportation facility and parking lots or parking areas adjacent to a terminal.

(11) "Transportation company" or "company" means any person, group of persons, or corporation providing for-hire transportation to passengers or freight by aircraft, by bus upon the highways in this state, by rail vehicle upon any public or private right of way in this state, or by all, including passengers and freight in interstate or intrastate travel. This term shall also include transportation facilities owned or operated by local public bodies; by municipalities; and by public corporations, authorities, boards, and commissions established under the laws of this state, any of the several states, the United States, or any foreign nation.

I also included the definition for "Transportation company," so you can see the scope of this includes public transportation, as well as private--even FREIGHT (such as UPS, Fedex)!

Well, it is certainly the case that a sidewalk or public road adjacent to a public bus route would "include a reasonable area immediately adjacent to any designated stop along the route traveled by any coach...vehicle," thereby making said road or sidewalk meet the criteria stated in the definition of a "terminal," in which it is unlawful to possess a "...firearm...knife or other device designed or modified for the purpose of offense and defense."

Yep. No guns (or knives) permitted on the road or sidewalk if it is adjacent to the bus route.

And a felony no less?

Yep. Sure is.

O.C.G.A. § 16-12-127 (continued)

(b) A person violating the provisions of this Code section shall be guilty of a felony and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than 20 years, a fine not to exceed $15,000.00, or both. A prosecution under this Code section shall not be barred by the imposition of a civil penalty imposed by any governmental entity.