Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[cobalt327]

Yes that would be great. Also are you noticing any power increases the more you shoot on any of the modded guns?

I usually don't run them over the chrony until I've shot quite a bit. That way I've shot any excess oil out and allowed the spring to take a set and for the seals to bed in. Then after 50 or so shots I've found the MV to be stable.

One thing about lube- you do not want the barrel to have any more oil in it than what is left after running a slightly oily patch through then followed by several dry patches. Any oil in the shot tube throws the accuracy right out the window and the MV can vary wildly. All you want is almost nothing. Even no oil is better than even a small amount too much.

I was doing yard work today but tomorrow I will shoot the sides of some cans. I'll let you know the results.

 

[BusMaster007]

Tag courtesy of AR15.com!

 

[cobalt327]

Tag courtesy of AR15.com!

Kinda like opposite ends of the spectrum- glad you're here!

@Al705- I still have not shot any cans but I will try again for tomorrow.

 

[BusMaster007]

Kinda like opposite ends of the spectrum- glad you're here!

@Al705- I still have not shot any cans but I will try again for tomorrow.

Yeah, new phone got me back on track.
Much better! I missed this place!

 

[cobalt327]

I guess the point on the receiver reinforcement is that the RR structurally is probably at its limit after a few mods. Is the 499 built with heavier guage metal? I had a 95 when I was a kid, but can't remember. Wish I still had it.

The gauge of the sheet metal these guns are made of is similar (as long as the guns are from the same era). The design of the wide frame guns (95, 96, 99, 499, etc.) is such that the receiver will be sturdier, it's two layers of sheet metal in the receiver area. But in my experience the receiver is not the weak point, it's the plunger tube legs flexing and the ability of the plastic trigger module to hold the spring pressure.

To give a point of reference, in the 1970s Daisy made pellet guns from both the light frame lever action BB guns (like the Red Ryder) as well as the wide frame guns (95, 86, 99 etc.). AFAIK they both used the same uber stiff spring and stiffer plunger assembly, but the guns didn't receive any additional internal bracing. Just the stiffer plunger tube. These guns used the 2-piece steel trigger that Daisy used on the 1105 and others. The 2-piece steel trigger could activate the automatic safety these guns used but was otherwise the same as the earlier 1-piece steel trigger used for years. If you do a search for these pellet guns, use 'Daisy roto clip pellet gun', 'Daisy model 400' (small frame) and 'Daisy 454' (wide frame).

 

[Al705]

The gauge of the sheet metal these guns are made of is similar (as long as the guns are from the same era). The design of the wide frame guns (95, 96, 99, 499, etc.) is such that the receiver will be sturdier, it's two layers of sheet metal in the receiver area. But in my experience the receiver is not the weak point, it's the plunger tube legs flexing and the ability of the plastic trigger module to hold the spring pressure.

To give a point of reference, in the 1970s Daisy made pellet guns from both the light frame lever action BB guns (like the Red Ryder) as well as the wide frame guns (95, 86, 99 etc.). AFAIK they both used the same uber stiff spring and stiffer plunger assembly, but the guns didn't receive any additional internal bracing. Just the stiffer plunger tube. These guns used the 2-piece steel trigger that Daisy used on the 1105 and others. The 2-piece steel trigger could activate the automatic safety these guns used but was otherwise the same as the earlier 1-piece steel trigger used for years. If you do a search for these pellet guns, use 'Daisy roto clip pellet gun', 'Daisy model 400' (small frame) and 'Daisy 454' (wide frame).

Thanks for info. Will check them out.

 

[cobalt327]

I shot the side of a shorter can w/320 fps RR, put a dent, no penetration. 104 with Cowboy spring and hinz57 bushing 375 fps put a small cut through the steel, no full penetration. Took the 499 @ 420-plus fps to fully pierce the can.

What are the specs on your gun- spacer size and all like that.

 

[Al705]

On the barrel efficiency of the 25 and the 499, I was thinking that on the 25 the bb loader design resulted in less air loss and the 499 being muzzle fed would be even less. I know from your past research that the 499 id has tighter clearances. I then thought if shot tube was longer that it would increase fps. I then looked up the topic and found out that although this was true with co2 and pumpers to a point, but not so with springers- in fact just the opposite at least to a point. I then looked up shot tube lengths between the RR, 25 and 499 and read that the RR had the longest of the 3. Is this true? I tried to find where I had read this, but cant seem to find the posting. I am sure that the 25 and 499 is a more efficient disign, but wonder if the barrel/shot tube length could be tuned for further increases in fps. You may have mentioned all these points in the past, but thought I'd mention it.

 

[Al705]

Ok the spacer is 11/16 and the washer on end is 1/16 +or- for a total of 3/4 preload. Also drilled out air tube that I received. No other mods. Oil used was standard air tool oil, as that is all I had on hand.

 

[Al705]

I'd be shocked if I was seeing 350+ numbers. Ill go back out and try it again sunday as im going away for the weekend. I do have a crosman c41 that was chronyed by pyramyd air guns at the time of purchase for an rough average of 410 and a daisy 5170 at 480ish. Never crossed my mind.

 

[Al705]

Also drilled out air tube that I received.

I did not modify the airtube. Was referring the one you sent.

 

[cobalt327]

Ok the spacer is 11/16 and the washer on end is 1/16 +or- for a total of 3/4 preload. Also drilled out air tube that I received. No other mods. Oil used was standard air tool oil, as that is all I had on hand.

Is this a current production 1938B Red Ryder? There's something that's not being taken into account if it is a new RR- could be the can is thinner gauge steel (it IS steel, right?) or something else I'm just not getting atm. I have always shot the end of the can at point blank range with the can on a solid surface like concrete, or in my case a wooden deck. The thickness of the can bottoms I use is 0.0085":
TIN CAN CHRONY
Del Monte fruit cocktail can bottom measure 0.0085" thick.
The can will be barely split at the 280-300 fps range. At around 375 fps a BB will go through it.

SHOT TUBE INFO
These measurements are the actual shot tube, not the whole shot tube assembly.
The 499 shot tube is 9" long.
The 1938B RR OAL of the liner is 10 7/8".
Model 25 OAL of the liner is 11-1/8".

 

[Al705]

Is this a current production 1938B Red Ryder? There's something that's not being taken into account if it is a new RR- could be the can is thinner gauge steel (it IS steel, right?) or something else I'm just not getting atm. I have always shot the end of the can at point blank range with the can on a solid surface like concrete, or in my case a wooden deck. The thickness of the can bottoms I use is 0.0085":
TIN CAN CHRONY
Del Monte fruit cocktail can bottom measure 0.0085" thick.
The can will be barely split at the 280-300 fps range. At around 375 fps a BB will go through it.

SHOT TUBE INFO
These measurements are the actual shot tube, not the whole shot tube assembly.
The 499 shot tube is 9" long.
The 1938B RR OAL of the liner is 10 7/8".
Model 25 OAL of the liner is 11-1/8".

Gun was purchased at walmat 3 months ago. Current production 1938b. As for the can it was a steel/tin vegi can, brand unknown. Range was 25 +- ft. As I pointed out would not go thru larger campbell soup can. Ill dig thru the cupboard and see if I can find a delmonte vegitable can. Face open end of can down on concrete and fire point blank. 2-3 inches from bottom.

 

[cobalt327]

Please wear eye protection- I do not want anyone to get hurt doing anything I suggest!

I wouldn't worry about it being Del Monte, I think any regular sized veggie/fruit cocktail, etc. can should be close enough.

 

[Al705]

Yea I was aware of that, i wear glasses and was still leary. Lol. I went out with a dog food can and it did not puncture bottom. That was point blank. It was raining up here which has been a daily occurrence for the last 2 months it seems, so testing was cut short. Ill be back home tomorrow afternoon and try it again. It seems like it takes a few shots to loosen up the gun. I was rushing today. I know I got some increase over stock. Based on your findings I think 1/2 spacer might be the sweet spot. I am gonna invest in a chrony. Just have alot going on. After 10-15 shots it was blowing thru tbe side of the can with ease. I did check can with magnet and it is steel.

 

[cobalt327]

Okay, thanks. No doubt it's shooting harder than stock, curious why it 'loosens up' after shooting it. Might be the oil you're using or maybe just tight still. Anyways, keep me posted!

 

[Al705]

After looking at photo may have mixed up shots. I any case not seeing much difference.

 

[Al705]

 

[Al705]

Dog food can has a moulded bottom rather than crimped on bottom. Looks to be a softer metal. Bbs would not penetrate. Metal stretched. Mixed shots, point blank and at distance.

 

[cobalt327]

That's very interesting. I'll look and see if I have a couple cans like yours. It IS hitting hard, though- good job!!.

 

[flightsimmer]

As a kid, many decades ago, I remember seeing a kid with a BB gun, don't know what model, but he was shooting holes in a galvanized trash can and then shot another kid in the butt with it. I don't know how much damage it did but he sure yelled awfully loud.
It could have been a model #25.

 

[cobalt327]

The older Daisy BB guns definitely were harder hitters than the new models, there's no doubt about it!

I recently bought a rusty basket case 1940-'41 Red Ryder. There's no way to tell the two years apart, but it's the first type Red Ryder that Daisy made. These first variation Red Ryders are distinctive in that they have copper plated barrel and forearm bands (my gun came missing the forearm band but the front barrel band is there and copper plating can be seen on it). The barrel band on the V1 was peened to hold it in place instead of spot welding because the welding process would have ruined the copper plating. Another feature is the elevation adjustable rear sight and the cast iron cocking lever. I got the gun for a song, it was advertised on eBay as being a 1938B! Total cost to my door was a whopping $20.55. This ~78 year old BB gun- after being soaked in 30w ND motor oil for several days to get the leather seals pliable again- is now the hardest hitting unmodified Daisy BB gun I own! The last string I shot with it was a very respectable 325 fps average and there's very little shot to shot variation.

These old Daisys used a high-effort cocking lever leverage. It gives a short throw to the lever but the effort is higher. After shooting the old RR, I thought I almost broke the lever of the new gun because of how hard I whipped the lever to cock it!. Makes me wonder how a 6 y/o managed to cock this gun, then I remembered seeing kids when I was a kid stick the muzzle into the ground, grab the lever and the butt end of the stock then pry the two apart to cock the gun- and that's why so many old RR'ers have broken stocks- mine being one of them! I'll eventually get some photos of it up after being cleaned some but for now...

Auction photo:

 

[Al705]

Thanks. Took out the crosman c41 with co2 that was in gun and it did penetrate bottoms of vegi and soup can. Dog food can was not tested as dog ran off with it. Lol. That gun chronys a little over 400fps.

 

[Al705]

The older Daisy BB guns definitely were harder hitters than the new models, there's no doubt about it!

I recently bought a rusty basket case 1940-'41 Red Ryder. There's no way to tell the two years apart, but it's the first type Red Ryder that Daisy made. These first variation Red Ryders are distinctive in that they have copper plated barrel and forearm bands (my gun came missing the forearm band but the front barrel band is there and copper plating can be seen on it). The barrel band on the V1 was peened to hold it in place instead of spot welding because the welding process would have ruined the copper plating. Another feature is the elevation adjustable rear sight and the cast iron cocking lever. I got the gun for a song, it was advertised on eBay as being a 1938B! Total cost to my door was a whopping $20.55. This ~78 year old BB gun- after being soaked in 30w ND motor oil for several days to get the leather seals pliable again- is now the hardest hitting unmodified Daisy BB gun I own! The last string I shot with it was a very respectable 325 fps average and there's very little shot to shot variation.

These old Daisys used a high-effort cocking lever leverage. It gives a short throw to the lever but the effort is higher. After shooting the old RR, I thought I almost broke the lever of the new gun because of how hard I whipped the lever to cock it!. Makes me wonder how a 6 y/o managed to cock this gun, then I remembered seeing kids when I was a kid stick the muzzle into the ground, grab the lever and the butt end of the stock then pry the two apart to cock the gun- and that's why so many old RR'ers have broken stocks- mine being one of them! I'll eventually get some photos of it up after being cleaned some but for now...

Auction photo:

View attachment 806476

Wow! That is a deal! Good find! I am constantly watching ebay. I've been wanting a 111-40, 25 and 95. And 325fps average is respectable. I was thinking / hoping with these mods I might be in that ball park. I think i'm gonna try modding a buck next. They seem to have a little more fps out of the box than RR. The local wally has them for under $20 the last time I checked. Congrats!

 

[cobalt327]

These are some photos before I used 4-0 steel wool on it. Looks a lot better now but it's still a beater, unfortunately. Not going to refinish it, though- it'll stay the way it is for the duration. Shoots great- all that really matters to me anyway.