Question on progressive presses

[whm1974]

OK, factor in the cost of buying the press and all the stuff to start, and it's just not worth it to some people, esp. if they shoot calibers that are cheap to buy, like 9mm, and .38 spl.

For people who don't shoot very often, then no it is not worth it for them to reload. But even for someone who only shoots a box or two a week can save money by reloading. It only cost me less then then $100 to get started equipment wise, and that was buying the bullets with it(midway). Then another $100 for the primers and powder.

-Bill

 

[Deavis]

OK, factor in the cost of buying the press and all the stuff to start, and it's just not worth it to some people, esp. if they shoot calibers that are cheap to buy, like 9mm, and .38 spl.

That sounds good right, but then you contradict yourself right afterwards

And about not trying hard enough, I have some pretty expensive tastes in ammo, like .41 mag, .44 mag, 10mm, 357SIG, .357 mag, .45 colt, .45 acp, etc. Yeah, my 550 paid for itself in a week, and I save more money reloading per hour than I make at work.

If you have a press then you probably bought it because you shoot ammo that is expensive. People who don't shoot much don't normally reload. There may be a couple tinkerers but I bet a poll here would show that most reloaders shoot expensive catridges as well as cheap.

Therefore, you have already absorbed the costs of reloading into your more expensive calibers and loading for 9mm is basically equipment cost free. If I calculate the amount of money I save on loading 10mm ammo in the last month alone, I could pay for my press. 10mm runs between $260 for blazer and $400 per 1000 rounds on some remanufactured sites... I loaded 3000 of them and didn't spend anywhere near $750 or $1200.

Yeah, you might save a dollar or two per box, but how many boxes would you have to shoot to pay for the press.

I'll say it once again, you are not trying hard enough.

Let's assume that you don't shoot expensive ammo. WWB 100 round boxes with tax in Austin is $13 with tax and I load for $6.15 per 100. So I am saving $6.85 per 100 rounds that I shoot. Let's say I'm having a conservative month and only shoot 1000 rounds, I'm sick 1/2 the month. That is a savings of $66.85 is one month. It takes me less than 1 hour to load 1200 rounds and with packaging and clean up, let's assume that it takes me a full hour for 1000 rounds. Let's value my time at $40 per hour. Now it takes about an hour to drive to Wal-Mart and pick up ammunition (service sucks there) but let's say it takes just 30 minutes and that means that reloading only cost me 30 minutes more than going to Wally World. So, I've saved $66.85-($40*.5)=46.85 for the month...

Do the math over 2 years and you have ~$1125 in savings. Don't think you can pay for your press and loading books by shooting reloads in 9mm? Remember the time you spend picking up your brass and selling it to offset your losses is the same time I use picking up my brass.

Once again, if you cannot save money reloading 9mm you are not trying hard enough!

 

[caz223]

I personally reload 9mm.
That being said, some people don't want to try that hard.

I am not saying it isn't worth it.
It IS to me.
It may not be that way for everyone, that's all I'm saying.
We are on the same side on this issue.
But I do have to say a few points.
1. Inexpensive presses don't load 1200 rounds an hour. Cleanup included or not. Do that on a LEE progressive by yourself with setup, cleanup, primer, case, and bullet loading included, and I'll be impressed. Really impressed.
OK, really, really impressed. (The obvious point is, if you could do that on a LEE, why buy a dillon?)

2. In my travels, I don't believe the average shooter blows through 2000 rounds in a month. I sure dont, and I was under the impression that 100-200 rounds a week is average, or above average.
(Also, whm1974 had mentioned that he was trying for 100-200 a week.)

3. The ready availability of cheap 9mm and .38 is one of their ADVANTAGES.
The assumption is that you were going to wal-mart anyway, therefore, shopping time and driving time doesn't count.

Anyway, I'm done.

 

[whm1974]

2. In my travels, I don't believe the average shooter blows through 2000 rounds in a month. I sure dont, and I was under the impression that 100-200 rounds a week is average, or above average.
(Also, whm1974 had mentioned that he was trying for 100-200 a week.)

This may sound strange but I ride my bicyce to the range and so I am limited on how much ammo I can bring. Pluse the place is only open to the public on satidays. I probley would shoot more then 200 CF rounds a week if it wasn't for the above. Or IF I had a car I would do so.

I also shoot at least 200 rounds of .22 as well. In fact most the time I will shoot a whole brick.

-Bill

 

[caz223]

Wow, I feel bad now.
Not only do you shoot more than I do right now, but you load your ammo currently on a single stage press, AND you pedal your bike to the range.

I'm lazy.
I'll go lay on the couch now.

 

[whm1974]

I'm lazy.
I'll go lay on the couch now.

Shame on you. funny but I have ran into people who thought 200 CF rounds at a time was a lot, not to mention the brick. If I could shoot in my backyard like some people I work with, I would shoot 1000 rounds a week....

-Bill

 

[Deavis]

1. Inexpensive presses don't load 1200 rounds an hour. Cleanup included or not. Do that on a LEE progressive by yourself with setup, cleanup, primer, case, and bullet loading included, and I'll be impressed. Really impressed.
OK, really, really impressed. (The obvious point is, if you could do that on a LEE, why buy a dillon?)

2. In my travels, I don't believe the average shooter blows through 2000 rounds in a month. I sure dont, and I was under the impression that 100-200 rounds a week is average, or above average.
(Also, whm1974 had mentioned that he was trying for 100-200 a week.)

3. The ready availability of cheap 9mm and .38 is one of their ADVANTAGES.
The assumption is that you were going to wal-mart anyway, therefore, shopping time and driving time doesn't count.

1. Remember, with all that money I've saved I can buy an expensive press that cranks out 1200 rounds an hour. As a matter of fact, you have to have a press that can do that if you want to save that kind of money. It is a one-time upfront investment, nobody says you have to do it on a Lee.

2. [joking] You shoot with weak people, join a group that practices like real men, not girly men![/joking] I shoot anywhere from 300-500 rounds a session, I like to shoot. Close range, mid-range, chrono-work, whatever. Add in a girlfriend who is about to get her first centerfire pistol and loves to shoot... I loaded a case up this past Saturday specifically for her to practice with when she gets her Beretta

3. Don't make assumptions, they make an ass out of you and me. My point is that you don't have to go to Walmart if you have a press, it is just a "trading " of time

Reloading 9mm will always save you money, if you make the investment in the proper tools, it is just a matter of how long it takes to recoup your expenditure. As you pointed out, if you load any bigger cartridge than a 9mm, the savings adds up fast. It still strikes me as odd that people will drop $600 or $1000 on a gun but balk at upgrading their single stage press to a progressive. Then again, I consider tools the second best thing a person can spend money on

whm1974, I thought toting ammo on my sportbike sucked but you have me beat!

 

[whm1974]

whm1974, I thought toting ammo on my sportbike sucked but you have me beat!

Well I ride 13 miles,about a little over an hour trip. Since I spend 2 or 3 hours there, and the 2 hour round trip this is petty much an all day thing for me.

-Bill

 

[vis35]

Remember, with all that money I've saved I can buy an expensive press that cranks out 1200 rounds an hour

Do you really crank them out at that rate, and for an extended period of time?

If so, you are a better man than I Gunga Din!

The fastest I ever loaded on a progressive press was about 350 rounds/hour, and that was with a Lee Pro1000, which I regard as a piece of junk. At that speed I made bad rounds (no powder or no primer), the lee used a spring to return the slide of the powder measure and if it bound up, no powder, also the primers would sometimes get jammed up and not feed. Lee claims 1000 rounds/hour.

I currently use a Dillon 550 and I load about 100 to 150 rounds/hour, that’s glancing in each case to visually check powder level, checking primer height if it doesn’t feel right, filling primer tubes, occasionally getting a cup of coffee or petting the cat. I know that sounds slow, but I am careful and safe.

The manufactures love to claim a high theoretical speed for their machines but the practical speed is usually a lot less.

 

[caz223]

Well, I don't know what press deavis has, but it's gotta be a bad mutha.
My 550b in my hands does a leisurely 200 up to a max of about 450 by myself, setup, cleaning and all that included.
Every time I stop to add primers, I check the powder drop.
Every time there is a primer jam I brush the primer slide area, spray a tiny bit of one shot on the primer mechanism, and take a drink of tea.
I check the primers after I load 200 by putting them in a white plastic ammo holder (That came with blazer 10mm or .45 ammo.) checking them for extruded primers, upside down primers, no primers, etc. then putting another white plastic holder over top and flipping it over.
Then I check for bullet seating, smashed bullet points, case neck splits, anything that doesn't look right.
This also lets me bag my ammo in increments of 50.
Never had a squib, never a double charge.
That is included in my 450.

 

[The Bushmaster]

What ever you do...People...Remember the first rule of bragging.(the last time I said this I got into trouble. Oh well). The Rule of Story Telling..."The first lier Don't stand a chance". (Old NAVY adage, I think). There...I said it again. Who wants to step in it...L O L. Why, in heavens name, do you want to load that many rounds in an hour and take the chance of a screw up and make a big BANG or no bang at all. This is supposed to be fun. Not mass production. I will continue to load on my Lee Turret and NEVER have a bad round. Unlike the writers of those gun magizines and others on this web site. I just have a real problem understanding what the hell...................... Why, I can load 10,000 rounds an hour. Prove me wrong....

 

[caz223]

I'm with ya there, Bushy.
I started reloading to make better ammo, not worse ammo.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Mutter, Whine, Snivel.

 

[tc300mag1]

Heres another Vote for the hornady LNL

 

[vis35]

I check the primers after I load 200 by putting them in a white plastic ammo holder (That came with blazer 10mm or .45 ammo.) checking them for extruded primers, upside down primers, no primers, etc. then putting another white plastic holder over top and flipping it over.

Hummm, sounds like a good idea, I will have to try that. It seems I am checking every second or third round for primer height, 90% of them are fine, with your idea I will only have to pull and reseat the ones that are high. Thanks! I might even get over 200 rounds/hour!

I am sure that a fancier press with case and bullet feeds would be faster than my 550, but 1200 rounds/hour is one crunch every three seconds. I am sure one could do that for a few minutes, but not for an hour or two.

 

[Deavis]

Why, in heavens name, do you want to load that many rounds in an hour and take the chance of a screw up and make a big BANG or no bang at all. This is supposed to be fun. Not mass production.

haha, I'm not going to be modest, I load really quickly. I enjoy reloading but I don't enjoy wasting time. When I'm developing rounds I slow down a little bit. However, when I'm cranking out a known load, I put the case feeder on high and roll. I'm young and loading for 4 hours straight doesn't bother me. My loading cycle takes 5 minutes per 100 rounds.

Starting with a full load of primers, powder, and brass
1) I load until the primer warning buzzer goes off indicating I've done 100
2) I pull the warning rod, pull the case out of station 3, dump its powder into the scale
3) Pick up my filled primer tube from the Dillon RF-100, drop them in, replace pin, set the warning rod
4) Dump a tray of primers in the RF-100, press the button
5) verify powder weight, replace powder in case, place case back in station 3
6) Repeat

It takes me slightly less than 4 minutes to load the 100 rounds and less than a minute to do steps 2-5. It takes a full minute if I have to add brass and powder. If a case hangs or doesn't prime the first try, it goes in the trash. Once you have culled the bad brass out (WCC or S&B) it is a rare thing but pulling them from station 2 is easy and fast. I see every case to ensure that it has powder in it and since I can check 2 cases at once, I also watch my case drop every few to insure that there isn't a 40/9mm combo waiting to block my feed. I can shave off about 30 seconds from the time to load if I really pull the handle but that begins to feel like real work and I don't like that.

With a progressive press that has autoindexing there is no chance of turning out a bad round unless the operator screws up. Every case hits the powder drop once and I see every case before a bullet goes on top. I never run out of pwder or primers because I've got a warning on both of them, The Dillon measure, while clunky, consistently thows the same charge for me on most powders. Speaking of speed, I actually don't load 9mm round nose anymore because they slow me down. I can't get my fat fingers around them as easily as a JHP. In addition, I've had to replace the indexing springs on my press because I've worn them out or broken them. You can tell when they are wearing because cases don't feed into station 1 fast enough, you start catching them on the lip of the sizer die, and the shellplate return starts to slow down.

Loading fast does not decrease the quality of your ammunition, it just requires that you know exactly what you are doing and practice it. It is no different than learning to block an opponent in football. You learn the steps slowly at first and commit them to memory. Then you work to speed them up always making sure you keep everything the same as before but faster. Soon you are coming out of a stance, hitting your power base, and shoving your hands into their chest before you can register doing it. It is natural, instinctive, and fun.

caz223, just like most people don't count filling primer tubes as loading time, I don't count packaging rounds as loading time. I toss everything in akro bins, put them through the tumbler and into boxes throughout the week or when my girlfriend wants to talk about what is going on in the world. Plus, I make her help if she is going shooting that weekend

I check the primers quickly visually when I put them in the boxes. When I pick up brass at the range I check it for cracking (drop it on the ground or shake it in a bag, it makes a completely different sound) and toss it in the appropriate bucket. I started buying processed brass so I know everything is a-ok and primer seating is smoother. I don't have to trim brass because I don't shoot rifle or high pressure handgun cartridges. If I had to trim brass, you can bet I would set-up a press specifically for that purpose with a sizing die and automatic case trimmer. I love buying tools almost as much as buying guns.

Besides, if you want to see mass-production, you should watch a Loadmaster work. That is a thing of beauty. My 650XL is rated for 1000 rounds an hour and it does a great job. If you have never used one, I promise, it is the most amazing machine once you develop a rhythm for it. 1200 rounds may sound crazy or boastful, but I assure you, it is not if you have a good setup, quality components, top-notch tools, and rhythm.

 

[whm1974]

Ok I may pass right now on getting a progressive. If I start shooting more then 200 CF rounds at a time or get a real good deal on a progressive press then I may change my mind.

I really don't feel like spending the money or going through the learning curve getting setted up. Besides the fact I have 1200 rounds of 9mm, I am starting to shoot my .22 more then anything.

-Bill

 

[vis35]

OK Gunga Din! I am sure that I could speed up some (I am going to try caz223’s tray idea) and still keep quality up, but then the cat would think I was neglecting him!
Best Regards,

 

[The Bushmaster]

I'm sorry (no I'm not). But I still will go for quality over mass production. And if you think that your rounds are higher quality then mine. You haven't been near or worked with a perfectionist. I can't walk on water quite yet , I still sink slowly. But I'm workin' on it...