Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

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That's fine for knowledgeable people gambling with their own life. I draw the line at people making public statements that it's a smart move for anybody and everybody. That sort of talk could get a less knowledgeable person killed - someone who hasn't looked at the facts and weighed the odds.

Exactly ... and this stuff ends up being searchable, too

i try to stay away form these threads but you catch a 22 hp in the gut it will bring you back to reality real Quick
sure, it would make me re-evaluate my cunning plan*, and it might make YOU change your habits ... but someone so irrational that they need to be stopped with deadly force? Those aren't you and me - we aren't stopping someone from ordering a milkshake, we're armed because we might have to stop somebody from continuing a violent felony.


(actually, it would result in an overwhelmingly violent immediate response from me, but then my initial plan was peaceful co-existence)
 
Okay, i gotta ask.

What possible situation where a .22LR advocate would carry a .22LR handgun is not suitable for a 9mm, or even one of the micro .380s?

.22LR handguns are huge for caliber in comparison to something like an R9 or P3AT.
 
There are the mini revolvers if you want really tiny. Many carry those.

The OP is looking at 380's now. And yes, the size of a pocket sized 22 are the same size of the 25's and 380's for the most part. In a revolver, the only thing you gain is a few more rounds versus the 5-shot J-Frame Smiths.
 
Shot placement is important with any caliber, however larger calibers do more damage and increase the "forgiveness" for bad shots. If you're worried about shooting yourself in a SD situation, you should get training. You want as great a margin of error as possible.

So how much margin of error or "forgiveness" do you get from a .45? If you miss a vital structure by an inch does a .45 still stop them in their tracks, whereas the lesser caliber missing by an inch wouldnt?

Compared to a 9mm or a .380 or even a .22 what is the margin of error or forgiveness mentioned? Is it strictly determined by bullet diameter, because that ain't much of a margin.
 
So how much margin of error or "forgiveness" do you get from a .45? If you miss a vital structure by an inch does a .45 still stop them in their tracks, whereas the lesser caliber missing by an inch wouldnt?

Compared to a 9mm or a .380 or even a .22 what is the margin of error or forgiveness mentioned? Is it strictly determined by bullet diameter, because that ain't much of a margin.
I say a hit with any caliber must be made to the perp's central nervous system regardless of caliber. Everything else is heresy as there is no science to ballistics relative to "absolutes." There are so many variables that may or may not effect the bullet regardless of caliber that precludes a religious-like loyalty to one caliber or another.

Reminds of when I was in College and a dorm-mate from Germany said the Americans are so hung-up on size in every-way including calibers. Not much of an issue on their continent. I replied that I would rather get hit with their 9 than our 45 but would very much hope to avoid either:eek:...

So I say select a gun of which you can shoot 'lights-out' and you will be prepared should the unfortunate circumstances materialize that require you to deploy the weapon in SD.

-Cheers
 
Opinion supported by past useage - The better you are, even under stress, the less gun you need. The Beretta models 70 and 71 in .22 long, complete with silencer, was the choice of the Mossad's assasination teams for years. We used the "hushpuppy", a silenced Colt or High Standard for the same purpose; quick, quiet kills of humans, guard dogs and so on. The 22, properly used, is a lethal instument. It also is a common accidental killler because people don't respect it.

If you start waving around a .50 Desert Eagle, someone will take it away from you and beat your head in with it. Any handgun brandished at under five feet can be taken away IF the person threatened has the nerve and training.

You want a deterent at close range and are too lazy to train in the muscle memory required to use a firearm properly under stress? Get a sharp, nasty-looking knife. More people stop thinking coherently when confronted with a knife than with a gun. It's called aichmophobia and is more common than you might think.

Me, I ulike the PPK in .380. I've had it for twenty years, and I try to get in a session a week. How many times can you hit a paper plate at twelve feet in under four seconds?
Just point your weapon at the ground down range, have your friend standing behind you talking normally, then he suddenly yells "shoot", counts four, and yells cease-fire. It isn't complex, just time consuming. And always practice your draw with an empty gun.

Easy to say, hard to do
 
Nothing is wrong with using a .22 for defense.

I use to carry my 617-6 in C.C.W. mode Now I open carry it from time to time.

Will that change much when I pickup the Gov. probably not.

The .22 LR isn't the best choice but it isn't the worst either.

A good shot with a .22 pistol or revolver will always be better than a horrible shot with a larger caliber.
 
Slicer, you can get a very light weight 9mm that is even light and small enough to carry in a pair of shorts. I would never go smaller than 9mm, but that is just me. This is the smallest gun I own, and is my suggeston. I would rather have a 45 caliber derringer than a 22 handgun for CC. I will link each. With the 9mm you get 10 rounds, and with the derringer you get two, buy you can make 1 a 410 round or even both, they are decently cheap as well, and you shoudn't miss with snake shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_P-11

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/kel_tec.htm

A derringer:

http://bondarms.com/bond-arms-guns/usa-defender
 
IIRC John Lott was the one who showed that defending oneself with lethal weapons other than a gun results in a dramatic increase in the chance of major bodily harm to the defender. I think the number was 40%...?

This information is repeated in Massad Ayoob's book on concealed carry, which I am reading these days.

Since I don't have (or want) much experience in this I'll take the word of these experts.

A .22 may or may not be a more effective fight stopper than a club; I think that point is infinitely arguable. But it has a much greater deterrent effect (per Lott, Kleck, etc.) and as mentioned above, the defender has a better chance of getting out of the encounter in one piece.

So I'd take the .22 over a Cold Steel *anything*.
 
City stick, not such a bad idea for sparing with a pit bull. I often carry a walking stick, along with my 21A for that very purpose. A dog much faster then any human.
 
My uneducated guess is shot placement regardless of caliber. You can hit an attacker in the thigh with a .45 and he'll still function enough to possibly put you down. Hit him in the eye or heart with a 22, and it's game over.
Shot placement is key, but in a real life situation, who has time to aim? It's point and shoot and hope for the best. Get as much lead down range as quickly as you can and hope you win. If it's not over and your still alive, RELOAD!! ;)
 
My uneducated guess is shot placement regardless of caliber. You can hit an attacker in the thigh with a .45 and he'll still function enough to possibly put you down. Hit him in the eye or heart with a 22, and it's game over.

A shot to the eye is not necessarily "game over" as you indicate. It is sort of like making a head shot where the head shot isn't game over. Why? Because the eye and the head are not serious cardio or pulmonary organs. A significant portion of the head is not a vital organ. People do get shot in the eye without involving the brain. If you don't involve the brain, you can't claim that the shot will be "game over."

Shot placement is key, but in a real life situation, who has time to aim? It's point and shoot and hope for the best. Get as much lead down range as quickly as you can and hope you win. If it's not over and your still alive, RELOAD!!

Apparently, a tremendous number of folks have time to aim. Even just looking at SD vids on YouTube you can find all sorts of people aiming.
 
"The better you are, the even under stress, the less gun you need."

This is the exact opposite conclusion reached by every recognized expert I can think of. Barring a situation that precludes a larger caliber like infirmity, none of the experts like Clint Smith, Massacre Ayoob, etc. recommend or carry a .22. No police force issues a .22lr. No military issues a .22lr. The FBI and Secret Service, who do meet research into ballistics than any agency don't issue them.

Special forces have switched in large numbers from the 9mm to. 45, not to the. 22.

To ignore everything other than shot placement is like taking E equals MC squared and saying only Mass matters.
 
This is the exact opposite conclusion reached by every recognized expert I can think of. Barring a situation that precludes a larger caliber like infirmity, none of the experts like Clint Smith, Massacre Ayoob, etc. recommend or carry a .22. No police force issues a .22lr. No military issues a .22lr. The FBI and Secret Service, who do meet research into ballistics than any agency don't issue them.

Special forces have switched in large numbers from the 9mm to. 45, not to the. 22.

well i wouldnt be so sure of that......

the Israeli defense forces issue the ruger 10/22....

the Navy seals use suppressed ruger MK2s...

the Russians used(d) the SV99....a .22lr sniper rifle...

heck, even Mossad has been known to use .22s on occasion

granted no one is issues a .22lr as a mass "go to war" gun.....but its been used in conflict for quite some time.
 
see post # 334 regarding the extremely limited use of .22lr by military and paramilitary groups

why does anyone think those uses have anything to do with unplanned defensive needs?
 
Conflict as in taking on a frontal armed assault or conflict as in taking out a sentry who is looking the other way?


"Hit him in the eye or heart with a 22, and it's game over."

Real life is not a fantasy game. Have you ever studied anatomy long enough to see where the heart is located and how it's protected? And the idea of making a eye shot in a stressful situation with a little Beretta pocket pistol or something similar is, well, pretty much a fantasy too.
 
see post # 334 regarding the extremely limited use of .22lr by military and paramilitary groups

why does anyone think those uses have anything to do with unplanned defensive needs?

training and tactics aside (as those arent a controlled variable)

what is the main goal of the .22lr in military applications.....to kill a threat.

what is the main goal of a round in a SD applications....to stop a threat.

one could argue, that it takes significantly less power to stop a threat than it does to kill him........



now my personal belief is that it really doesnt make a huge difference the caliber used for SD.........but as i said before, at SD ranges, i shoot my .357 just as well as a .22lr.......so why not go with the round with a little something extra....it certainty isnt going to hurt my chances.
 
I have a G26 and G19, both of which I trust completely in terms of reliability and accuracy.... but they're not always practical to carry.

Then I have the Ruger LCP and NAA .22 Mag mini-revolver.... and I trust the NAA significantly more in terms of both reliability and accuracy. Still think I'd rather have the NAA with the LR cylinder than the LCP.

I'd certainly rather any of them over a knife.
 
what is the main goal of the .22lr in military applications.....to kill a (1) [strike]threat[/strike].

what is the main goal of a round in a SD applications....to stop a(2) threat.
1 - previously identified non-fighting target, as part of the team, while the rest of the team stands by with conventional weaponry as the super-ninja secret-squirrel guy takes out a guard dog, assasination target, or sentry/device

2- an unexpected unpredictable threat, RIGHT NOW.


... no, the two situations have very little to do with each other
 
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