Robbery/Shooting Video, what would you do?

[helpless]

Just found this vid. Some content on the site is not work safe but nothing to bad.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/100303-8927.html

1) My question is this. Most of us carry 24/7 If you were in this guys position, carry the way you do, be it right side hip, ankle, small of back, cross draw.... My guess you would have had to act pretty damn fast to make a move.

2) I always tell myself my firearm is only to protect my life and the life of others not the gas station/banks/fast food joints cash register. This scenario tells me that regardless you need to expect the evil scum to turn on you.

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My take on the first question would be to get low as if I was getting down and draw from a almost at the ground, I believe I could do this with some practice and make it look very natural as if I was shifting my weight to lower myself to the ground.

Also I already make a point to keep my eye on the parking lot when inside any business where I can see out side.

 

[Caimlas]

It's hard to say, exactly, without having a good idea what the layout of the store is like inside. From my perspective, it looked like he had a good 5 seconds or more between he noticed what was going on and the perp became noticeable, and then you had the guy just walking behind him as if the sun was still shining and the birds were still singing, unaware of what was going on.

If you don't notice what's going on until a gun is pointed at you, you're too late to do any sort of tactical nonsense and pull off a shot before getting blasted - unless you're trained in such things, of course, and know when to make your move.

Personally, I never turn my back to the doorway, walk around with my head on a swivel, go into a convenience store with shifty people milling around, and always survey the parking lot for suspicious behaviour before going in. I can't say I'd have handled that situation well, but I'm fairly certain I'd not be working a convenience store or standing at a counter twiddling my thumbs waiting for lotto tickets, so I'm guessing I'd never actually be in that situation.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well Helpless, what you saw in the video happens about 13% of the time according to FBI stats. Fully compliant folks, not always the robbees, but patrons, end up getting hurt.

I always tell myself my firearm is only to protect my life and the life of others not the gas station/banks/fast food joints cash register. This scenario tells me that regardless you need to expect the evil scum to turn on you.

Right, well in this scenario should not be one where in your previous mindset you would not be carrying to protect "gas station/banks/fast food joints cash register." This is because upon entering the store, the bad guys are threatening YOUR life even if they are there to rob just the store. The guns are not there just to get money, but to assure cooperation out of others present. The perceived and sometimes stated conditions are that if you don't cause trouble, don't resist, you won't get hurt. Of course, those are conditions mandated at gunpoint and are not a contractual agreement.

Personally, I never turn my back to the doorway, walk around with my head on a swivel, go into a convenience store with shifty people milling around, and always survey the parking lot for suspicious behaviour before going in.

You must be that guy I always see walking around sideways, sometimes backwards in convenient stores and who abruptly leaves any store where he discovers opposing entrances because of the difficulty of not presenting your back to a door.

 

[SBD]

A lot of things bother me about that video. But I'd have to say that what bothers me most is this: had one of the victims had a legal firearm and fired on the criminals, someone (i.e. a prosecutor) might have challenged them for it. For example, "But how did you know he was going to shoot you? Why didn't you just give him your money?"

I'm currently reading Massad Ayoob's The Truth About Self-Protection. Within the first 10 pages of the book he states a harsh truth: that to most violent criminals, people they hurt are just people that happened to get in the way, and that's their problem for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Just goes to show that the old "I would just give the robber what he wants and then he'd leave me alone" is not absolute.

 

[Kentak]

Well, sometimes you are just between a rock and a hard place. The thugs came in with guns at the ready. Unless your weapon is awfully easy to get out of concealment AND you've practiced doing so proficiently under stress, you will likely be shot at the first sign of a defensive move. There is no *correct* thing to do because you don't *know* the robbers' intentions. If you pull your gun you are very likely to be shot down because they have the drop on you. No one can pull a gun faster than the other guy can pull the trigger. Given that, the best thing to do might be to hit the deck and hope they get what they want and leave. Perhaps you can wiggle your hand near your piece and be ready to act if the SHTF.

BTW, I don't think a CCW'er would have to worry about criminal prosecution if he were able to clear leather and shoot a masked and armed thug charging into a 7-11. That's a clearly defensive move. The law does not require that the other guy shoot first. The mere pointing of a weapon at you is the threat of imminent use of deadly force.

K

 

[Geno]

The clerk's stunt of not speaking English was dumb. It's only paper...give them the money, and especially so if you aren't a smart enough business owner to be armed.

 

[Zoogster]

There is many documented cases of clerks being executed after complying with a robbery. Often when thier expectations of loot don't match what they find, but also just to kill all witnesses even when they comply. Other times they don't plan to kill, but after shooting one person execute the rest.

Fighting back is definately a valid option. Being capable of fighting back with a firearm when that option presents itself is a must.

I did a quick look on the net for clerks killed after complying and came across dozens of seperate instances of clerks and others executed while complying, or afterwards.
I started to post links, but the examples seemed endless.

So here is another video instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH3z7H4S-XI
In that one a man is shot after fully complying.
He dies.

There there is this one where other clerks are shot after complying for several minutes in a jewelry store robbery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d4IL77KzpU

So complying left them dead.

Here is two videos of fighting back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfTFvYQrSeE
Good guy is shot in the second one. Manages to survive.

The clear thing I notice in the facts of many cases is that the longer a victim waits to fight back, the more the odds are stacked against them if the criminals decide to kill them. As the crime unfolds the emotions of the criminals can change, and the tactical advantage also goes to the criminals who realize where everyone is located, cover them, and order people into positions from which defense will be more difficult.

I think the most can be learned about the second defense video where even though he ends up shot, he faced mutliple assailants of a more aggressive manner. He drops to cover draws and one of the guys is already over almost behind the counter with him.

However not all robberies are obvious from the start. Many times the robbers hang out for several minutes looking at merchandise in the store first, and other times they case the place and then come back later. Multiple clerks willing and ready to defend themselves and eachother in a single location trumps a lone individual in such a situation. Being the lone hero may not be enough. So encouraging someone else to have adequate training and being prepared to back you up is a smart tactic as well.

Then there is cases where the robber accidentaly may kill you. Take this case :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0iBDZ78GjI
The guy later said the shooting was an accident. Booger hook on bang switch, high tension, clerk barely misses almost accidentaly having her head blown off when the guy she is helping pulls his weapon and has a ND while pointing it at the clerks head. You can even see the muzzle blast blow her hair up. I estimate it went an inch or two above her head.

 

[mbt2001]

Your best bet is to offer resistance immediately you see them come through the door. Waiting for an "opportune" moment usually isn't a good idea, as kidnapers, rapists and the like usually move you into a position where they have MORE control.

So, my advice is at the first sign of a robbery or something of the sort is for you to offer EXPLOSIVE resistance. That usually throws them off their game enough to cause them to flee, supposing they are able.

 

[SBD]

So, my advice is at the first sign of a robbery or something of the sort is for you to offer EXPLOSIVE resistance. That usually throws them off their game enough to cause them to flee, supposing they are able.

So, in the case depicted in the video, draw your weapon as soon as you notice multiple masked criminals coming approaching the store (assuming you saw them)?

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

thanks for the link Zoogster, if nothing else that shows how fast things can happen real shame about the older fella in the grocery being murdered, there were shots fired when the robbers ran out, wonder at who/what?

 

[Kentak]

Some things to consider:

Acting on hard and fast rules without *some* realtime tactical evaluation can get you killed.

Many more armed robberies end without bloodshed than those that do. That's just statistically true, look it up.

Really, how much have you, [insert your name], practiced quickly and reliably drawing your gun from all possible clothing combinations? If so, how do you think the stress of a life-or-death moment will affect your performance? If you are staring down the bad end of a shotgun, are you willing to bet your life you can draw and drop the threat before Mr. Shotgun can pull the trigger?

In the video, there were three or four armed BG's. Even if you are able to draw and stop one, can you do them all, especially if they spread out?

I am NOT saying don't fight back. I'm saying, understand that resisting entails risks, just as complying does, and it would be wise to 1) practice drawing your CCW from multiple clothing scenarios, and 2) consider how to best react to various possible scenarios before they occur.

K

 

[The Amigo]

Ran across this one some time ago.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1150198179/Father_of_Three_Murdered_for_No_Reason

 

[Zoogster]

Here is a video very similar to the original poster's video. However in this video the clerk sees the 3 masked guys and long guns coming and opens fire as they enter the store:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af0ab75e55
He survives.

There is a short gunfight, and yes people on either side could easily have died, that is the nature of gunfights. However risk in a gunfight where one has some influance in the outcome of the event sure beats complying and being executed with your face in the ground like in the first video.

Here is another complying clerk who is shot in the head off camera after complying to help illustrate the point:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=606_1184349767

There is literaly hundres of stories without video of seperate instances every year of complying clerks killed. It may not be the most common outcome of a robbery, but it is sure happens a lot, every year.

I compare it to the command given to soldiers in Iraq, "Do NOT be captured" because it is better to risk death or die taking a few with you than surrendering and being carved up later defenseless.

 

[Blackbeard]

The older guy probably should have opened the register and retreated, giving the BGs a choice of him or the money. Of course, retreats are even more effective when covered by gunfire.