Ron Paul the flunkie

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Two comments: First, Paul is certainly a long shot in this race, but he's no flunkie, and I think anyone arguing to the contrary is misinformed at best.

Second, given the choice between a slow and withering descent into utter slavery or a quicker and more shocking imposition of the same, I'd ask for the latter. Better to fight while the hunger for liberty and the tools to achieve it have not been eroded so as to be ineffectual.
 
You also said that the odds were 998 to one against. I make that as a $5.05 bet against your $5,000. I will take those odds.

So where are you?

I am where I have been. You don't get to modify a wager simply because the odds of you winning are dismal. In truth, the point of that statement was to illustrate the fact that everyone who is voting for Paul is doing so with the knowledge that he wont win. I think that this point has been made blatantly clear.


Second, given the choice between a slow and withering descent into utter slavery or a quicker and more shocking imposition of the same, I'd ask for the latter. Better to fight while the hunger for liberty and the tools to achieve it have not been eroded so as to be ineffectual.

So when this AWB II passes are you going to vote from the roof tops? Did you start popping off ATF agents when that last AWB was in effect? Or did you write your congressman, donate to the NRA and similar things. My guess is it was the latter. If so, then why in the world would you voluntarily let the other side take away something that isn't theirs.
 
STAGE2...

You poor, misguided soul. At this point in time, there is no "other side".
Both sides are scrogging us equally, stroke for stroke.
A man like Ron Paul just might be able to change that.

Biker
 
Which other side?

Both MR and RG fully support gun control. MR has already said he would sign the AWB if president. RG is even more anti than he is just more slippery.

Those are your repub poll favorites that you keep talking about, avid antis. They both have a good chance of winning I am sure you will vote for them to keep the dems from winning. If you want to vote for people that want to take your guns away go ahead. Don't expect a lot of people here to go with you.

If you can't see this I can't help you.
 
So I have the choice between a guy who says he wants gun control, but still may feel some sense of debt towards conservatives on other issues, and a guy who wants gun control and has NO sense of debt towards conservatives, instead is indebted to liberals on the other issues.

I do indeed see 2 sides there.
 
No you still don't get it.


You have a choice between two antis. If a third party runs that is not anti than you have a choice between two antis and a pro 2A.

And you won't get it. Not until RG is president and signs AWBII. than you will say 'OH $h1+, now I get it' but by then it will be too late and you will be the ones that have caused this, especially since you have been told over and over and over again but stil don't get it.
 
Taurusowner...

So you'd support a man who says, in virtual speak, "I'll screw you over a bit less and slower than the other guy if you vote for me"?

Not me, I'm done with that. Good luck to you.

Biker
 
But those are the only 2 options.


I'll say it again.


Those are the only two options.

This mythical third choice is a dream. I deal in reality. Not noble minded ideas that will never come to pass.
You have a choice between two antis. If a third party runs that is not anti than you have a choice between two antis and a pro 2A.

No I don't because that third choice will lose. So there's no point. There are 2 possible winners. You can lie to yourself if you want. But there are 2 possible winners. That's it.

Are you guys are of what "balancing an equation" is? If both sides are going to support at AWB, than it evens out and becomes null. I must look to other issues to choose. And in all other issues, I agree with Republicans.
 
See! Exactly right! You don't get it.
That is why you will help destroy our rights. Because you can not see any other way. You are just like all the other mindless non-thinking masses. And that is why I can not help you.
 
VOTING FOR A LOSER IS A POINTLESS GESTURE THAT WILL ONLY BRING ABOUT THE END FASTER.


You guys act like this is some dammed fantasy novel or fairy tail. Like rushing towards your doom valiantly is something to be proud of. You're out of your mind. I'm going to claw and scratch to stave off the end as much as I can. I'm going with what works.

A noble faster doom is just doom. I'll take the few extra moments of non-doom wherever I can get them. You're living in a fantasy world where "good intentions" are something that actually matters. You'll gladly let the Dems in and bring about our doom even faster just so you can pump up your own ego with thoughts of "well I voted noblely" "I voted with my heart".

I'll take a dirty conscience with some good effect over a clean conscience and a terrible effect any day. In the real world, one's feelings and conscience mean exactly zero when compared to ACTUAL EFFECT.
 
What a lot of people are overlooking is the electoral college. The truth is, there are only a handful of states that decide who becomes president; the rest pretty much always go to the Republicans or Democrats.

I have no doubt in my mind that my state will go to the Democrat in the next presidential election, and the one after that, and the one after that, etc.

How I (and most people) vote has absolutely nothing to do with who wins the general election (which shouldn't even be the topic of this tread btw). All my vote did in '04 was help Bush declare a "mandate" because it helped to give him the majority of the popular vote. Maybe if more of us had voted 3rd party last time, Bush wouldn't have made such an ignorant claim and would have showed enough restraint to keep from pissing off enough people to lose both houses of Congress.

For the record, a lot of people have attributed the result of our Gubernatorial election to an anti-Bush backlash (which makes sense, considering the former gov. had a 60% approval rating going into the election).

In '08, I WILL NOT contribute to someone I do not support, only to have them tout my vote as giving them a mandate. If the Republican candidate is one of the three in my sig, I will vote Libertarian with a perfectly clear conscience.

ETA: I'm still waiting for one of the people who says it'll be my fault if an AWB is passed under the next president to take the same responsibility if it's a Republican that signs the bill.
 
So when this AWB II passes are you going to vote from the roof tops? Did you start popping off ATF agents when that last AWB was in effect? Or did you write your congressman, donate to the NRA and similar things. My guess is it was the latter. If so, then why in the world would you voluntarily let the other side take away something that isn't theirs.
A fair question. Since I've only become convinced in the last couple of years of the necessity in a free society for individual weapons ownership, and have only become a firearms owner in the last 12 months, I didn't understand the ramifications of the AWB the first time around and therefore, unfortunately, did little to act upon it.

I'm still weighing my options for dealing with the ongoing attacks on individual liberty. From a moral standpoint, I believe people are already justified in using force against those who take actions to enslave them. From an intellectual standpoint, I realize that for the use of force to be ultimately successful, a greater concentration of freedom loving individuals is needed. Moving to a more liberty-minded state that might be willing to stand up against an oppressive federal government is one possibility that I'm considering.

Regardless of my decision, I think that if there was ever a time when half measures (including less than principled politicians) might have been effective in securing our liberty, that time has passed. If the cause of liberty is to thrive, it can only do so by the undaunted will of those who yearn for it. Patrick Henry spoke as if from my own heart when he said,

Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
 
And in voting for your mode of death you still wind up dead.

You keep dreaming that some repub is going to save you. The current repubs are more anti-freedom than any group to come along in a long time. You are lying to yourself if you think that they care about what you want, they don't.

Lets see do I want the axe or the chair?

No?

What else is out there?
 
'I guess in your mind, dreams count for something.'

Yes, now you are starting to see.... you just won't understand until it is too late.
 
'Your idealism will only bring the end to the rest of us faster.'


No, that is what you keep missing your moral bankruptcy will bring the end that much faster.
 
No I did not say that. What I said, have been saying and will say again is that you have a choice.

You are making the wrong one based upon your professed beliefs.

You can't see that because you have deluded yourself into thinking that they are no other options. The results may still be the same. But for me it won't be because I have made the wrong choice.

Then again the reults may be different... no one knows for sure. You have convinced yourself that you know the unknowable and are making a bad choice based upon that.
 
No I don't because that third choice will lose. So there's no point. There are 2 possible winners. You can lie to yourself if you want. But there are 2 possible winners. That's it.
The Democrats and Republicans desperately want you to believe that there are only two options. As long as you and enough others believe that there are only two options, there will only be two options - both bad.

The belief that voting is nothing more than picking the lesser of two evils is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
How does voting any anti in office help?

It does not.

You have convinced yourself that any repub is better than any dem. This is not true.

Since in your mind these are your only options you have limited yourself.
 
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