I have an older traditions sidelock that uses no 11 percussion caps. Our muzzleloader season comes in next saturday and I am wanting to use this rifle. I am using Hornady .495 round balls with a lubed patch on top of 100 grains of pyrodex select. The rifle has a 1'48" twist rate. It shoots fist sized groups at fifty yards but is giving me fits at 100. I felt like I was making progress but I had about ten rounds fired and I think the bore was fouled to the point that I called it a day. Am I expecting too much from this rifle to be capable of a 5 or 6" group at 100 yards with irons?
round ball troubles
- Thread starter nick22
- Start date
I think you are using too much powder which is causing the PRB to skip across the lands of the bore resulting in poor accuracy. The Traditions guns have shallow rifling and too much powder will cause the ball to skip over the rifling. I have had fine accuracy using 80 grains of powder, and no deer hit in the vitals is going to go far using that load.
hawg
Member
Each rifle is different. I had an Investarms Hawken with a 1:48 twist. I used 90 grains of Pyrodex RS, a .490 ball and a .018 patch. It would do 5 inches at 100 yards
Captain*kirk
Member
I agree. My Lyman Trade Rifle, 1:48 shoots fist-sized groups at 100yds using a .495 RB, .010 patch and 80gr 2F.
Armored farmer
Member
In a good barrel you could expect 5-6 inch groups at 100yds. From a rest.
My club shoots an event at 100yds
Most of ours is at 60yds but we are shooting pretty small groups. The winners are shooting about 1-1½inch strings of 10 shots.
I don't know how experienced you are in the art of BP rifle shooting but great gains in accuracy can be had by putting in the extra 50% of effort.
Experiment with charge weights
Ball diameter
Patch thickness
Lube.
Barrel swabbing (between shots
Bore fouling
Sight picture
The actual target itself (precise aim point)
I agree with @Fyrstyk .
I would tone down your load in 5gr increments and see if it helps.
Use a sturdy patch that makes the ball relatively tight. If you're using a .490 ball, I would find some .015-.020 pillow ticking or pocket drill.
Oddly enough I found significant accuracy improvements just by changing my lube...
Best wishes.
My club shoots an event at 100yds
Most of ours is at 60yds but we are shooting pretty small groups. The winners are shooting about 1-1½inch strings of 10 shots.
I don't know how experienced you are in the art of BP rifle shooting but great gains in accuracy can be had by putting in the extra 50% of effort.
Experiment with charge weights
Ball diameter
Patch thickness
Lube.
Barrel swabbing (between shots
Bore fouling
Sight picture
The actual target itself (precise aim point)
I agree with @Fyrstyk .
I would tone down your load in 5gr increments and see if it helps.
Use a sturdy patch that makes the ball relatively tight. If you're using a .490 ball, I would find some .015-.020 pillow ticking or pocket drill.
Oddly enough I found significant accuracy improvements just by changing my lube...
Best wishes.
Ugly Sauce
Member
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- Oct 26, 2020
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- 6,180
You might want to wipe/clean the barrel between shots. I hope/assume you are hunting with a clean barrel. Your groups may just be opening up as the barrel fouls.
As I hunt with a squeaky clean barrel, I more than just wipe between shots. Like five or six or seven "wipes". If you are trying to get a good group, but shooting until you have to "call it a day" because the barrel is so fouled, you probably won't get a good group. What counts when hunting is how the gun groups from a cold clean barrel.
Then experiment with lubes, patches, etc. (lubes do make a difference)
I know, it's a lot of trouble, but "what's it worth to ya?"
As I hunt with a squeaky clean barrel, I more than just wipe between shots. Like five or six or seven "wipes". If you are trying to get a good group, but shooting until you have to "call it a day" because the barrel is so fouled, you probably won't get a good group. What counts when hunting is how the gun groups from a cold clean barrel.
Then experiment with lubes, patches, etc. (lubes do make a difference)
I know, it's a lot of trouble, but "what's it worth to ya?"
Armored farmer
Member
It depends on how clean your load combination shoots. You might be able to get a dozen shots before swabbing when everything is right.
I personally Iike to shoot for score with a slightly fouled barrel.(rather than freshly cleaned)
I personally Iike to shoot for score with a slightly fouled barrel.(rather than freshly cleaned)
Shanghai McCoy
Member
I had a Traditions that gave me "fits" at 100 yards too. TBH, I never did get it shooting groups at that distance.
I'd try a cold bore shot at 100 to see if the sights are on.
I'd try a cold bore shot at 100 to see if the sights are on.
Ugly Sauce
Member
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- Oct 26, 2020
- Messages
- 6,180
Only if you want to get a jag and patch stuck in the barrel. Badly stuck. Really badly stuck. !!!
No, wipe with a damp patch. Not wet. It can be windex, spit, or any type of BP solvent. I use windex. I'd wipe two or three times with damp patches, new one each time, and THEN a couple dry patches. If the dry patch, after the damp patches, feels real tight going down, don't go down all the way. It should be loose, as you are then just drying to bore, not trying to scrape any crud out of it.
The OP is:
1. Overdriving the patch/ball combo for the barrel's fast(er) twist rate.
Optimal twist for patched ball:
32 cal. = 38.4
36 cal. = 43.2
40 cal. = 48.0
45 cal. = 54.0
50 cal. = 60.0
54 cal. = 64.8
58 cal. = 60.6
62 cal. = 74.4
69 cal. = 82.8
72 cal. = 86.4
Initial Solution is to reduce charge to 1.5 * caliber.
2. OP didn't mention material, thickness or lube
Most likely combo will be .490-.495 ball with
0.015-0.018 100% cotton striped pillow ticking
3. OP should be swabbing with damp (only) patch between shots
"Damp" means patch moistened in mouth -- NOT wet.
Down/up, down/up, --> Out
4. Lube for the ball patch/ticking can be ...
Same mouth-moistening ("spit patch")
Same ticking using 7:1 water/cutting oil "squeegeed" dry and keep in an Altoids tin
- 7:1 water/water-soluble Cutting Oil on ticking strips
- Squeegeed all-but dry between paper towels/rolling pin
- Final dry in warm oven.
Fold it into Altoids tins and it lasts forever until use.
.
1. Overdriving the patch/ball combo for the barrel's fast(er) twist rate.
Optimal twist for patched ball:
32 cal. = 38.4
36 cal. = 43.2
40 cal. = 48.0
45 cal. = 54.0
50 cal. = 60.0
54 cal. = 64.8
58 cal. = 60.6
62 cal. = 74.4
69 cal. = 82.8
72 cal. = 86.4
Initial Solution is to reduce charge to 1.5 * caliber.
2. OP didn't mention material, thickness or lube
Most likely combo will be .490-.495 ball with
0.015-0.018 100% cotton striped pillow ticking
The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - ball patch material ?
The Leading Online Forum for firearms Enthusiasts
thefiringline.com
3. OP should be swabbing with damp (only) patch between shots
"Damp" means patch moistened in mouth -- NOT wet.
Down/up, down/up, --> Out
4. Lube for the ball patch/ticking can be ...
Same mouth-moistening ("spit patch")
Same ticking using 7:1 water/cutting oil "squeegeed" dry and keep in an Altoids tin
- 7:1 water/water-soluble Cutting Oil on ticking strips
- Squeegeed all-but dry between paper towels/rolling pin
- Final dry in warm oven.
Fold it into Altoids tins and it lasts forever until use.
.
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Ugly Sauce
Member
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Nick22, let me ask you this. Did you shoot your 50 yard groups first, and then the 100 yard group next without any wiping?
Too bad time is so short, you could try some slugs/bullets/conicals, but it looks like you have a lot on your plate as it is.
Too bad time is so short, you could try some slugs/bullets/conicals, but it looks like you have a lot on your plate as it is.
Armored farmer
Member
I shot my 50 yard groups 2 or three days ago, then moved to the 100 had bad results and called it for the day Yesterday I started working on 100 yards, I have some time through the week I am a farmer and am hauling some grain so I am flexible. Thanks so much for all your replies I will reduce my load and hope to try again today. And swab between shot with moistened patch. I have conical bullets but I have never taken a deer with round balls and since I can't find a big buck to go after I figure this will be interesting. And I am learning a lot from you guys thanks so much. Last thought 100 yards with irons will have to be a perfect scenario for me to take a shot with this setup. Is a PRB pushed by 70 grains of powder going to have plenty of steam to get the job done I know placement is everything. Even with the 100 grain charge the recoil of this rifle was surprisingly light compared to my straight walled rifles.
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243winxb
Member
Deformed ball on loading. To tight a fit require more force to seat the patched ball.
Ball becomes not round, poor accuracy.
Between shots clean with a bronse brush, 5 to 10 strokes knocks loose the fouling. Load with lubed patch.
5" groups at 100 yards ok with iron sights.
Ball becomes not round, poor accuracy.
Between shots clean with a bronse brush, 5 to 10 strokes knocks loose the fouling. Load with lubed patch.
5" groups at 100 yards ok with iron sights.
What do your fired patches look like? If they are shredded , or have a hole burned in them, the charge is too high. Everyone else is correct about the swabbing also. You can get away with a bit of fouling at 50 yards. At 100 yards forget it.
If your patches are not of good quality it can cause issues also.
If your patches are not of good quality it can cause issues also.
)
hawg
Member
I don't agree with that. My hunting loads are so tight I have to pound them in. I can't use the ramrod until the balls are 6 inches down the bore. Accuracy is exceptional. I use thinner patches for plinking and it's accurate just not as accurate. Deformation on the front of the ball doesn't usually result in accuracy loss. Deformation on the rear of the ball does. That's why you always load the sprue up.
243winxb
Member
After the ball starter, the ram rod should push the ball home, in 1 steady stroke.
What works, works.
hawg
Member
Yes and it will. I just have to have a 6 inch short starter for my hunting loads.
Jackrabbit1957
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,868
How is it calibrated? What is the standard? Just curious. Who sets the standard and determines that it's properly calibrated?
If....
- The 4-5" portion of the short starter exhibits resistance, but still goes down w/ one smooth palm stroke after initial (1/2") set to cut the patch at the muzzle
- The ramrod also exhibits the same resistance, but then two-hands on rod 6" above muzzle -- lift 6" & down 12'-- goes that net 6" smoothly (no gritty hang-ups)
This all pre-supposes a damp-wiped surface in the bore;: and the calibration of how "smoothly-stiff" is stored in my muscle memory.
But it ain't a simple loose push, and it ain't jamming up getting harder & harder from fouling/torn patch on the way down.
- Looking at the fired patches (neither shredded/nor burned from loose blow-by), and then the group
(but that's after the fact)
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Ifishsum
Member
I agree with trying to drop the load a little bit. My T/C with a 1:48 twist shoots great with PRBs @100 yds up to about 80 grains, above that it starts to get squirrely.
You are asking a lot, but it can be done. But then everyone has given you some good ideas too. But considering your time frame, consider with a 1 in 48 twist you might shoot a 245 grain sabot at that distance. Peep sights can help a lot too. I agree with the others you can do better by experimenting with different patch thickness and lubes when you have more time. I make my own .50 cal. wool wads soaked in Bore Butter under the patch which gives the ball some extra distance, too. When using Pyrodex the best you can expect is two shots without cleaning, then clean and run a dry patch and shoot a cap or two before reloading.
