usp9
Member
Sphinx has turned the CZ75 into a much better pistol, 2000 and 3000 and also taken the CZ82 and transformed it into the AT-380.
Ruger Reverse Move with LCP
- Thread starter Coltdriver
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Sphinx has turned the CZ75 into a much better pistol, 2000 and 3000 and also taken the CZ82 and transformed it into the AT-380.
The Tourist
member
Don't we have this debate "bass-ackwards"?
This is a defense gun. Any defense gun has to work 100% of the time. Most of my automatic defense pistols have been to Terry for a reliability package, and I do not regret the action or belittle Colt. It's my butt in the sling, so as an adult, the thing works or I die. Simply equation.
If this new little pistol experiences stoppages, shaves plastic from internal parts, will only be reliable with ball ammo, or require hundreds of range firings to sort out problems, then the pistol is not a defense gun.
Now granted, my full-size Colt .380 is clearly many more ounces heavier. It has a 1911, single action design. Its overall dimensions are larger in all factors--length, breadth and width.
So, you buy a new holster or pants a size bigger. You obtain a day-planner that carries the pistol securely. You spend time learning the manual of arms for a 1911 style pistol.
The problem here is us! If the pistol doesn't function as sold, why are we having this debate?
This is a defense gun. Any defense gun has to work 100% of the time. Most of my automatic defense pistols have been to Terry for a reliability package, and I do not regret the action or belittle Colt. It's my butt in the sling, so as an adult, the thing works or I die. Simply equation.
If this new little pistol experiences stoppages, shaves plastic from internal parts, will only be reliable with ball ammo, or require hundreds of range firings to sort out problems, then the pistol is not a defense gun.
Now granted, my full-size Colt .380 is clearly many more ounces heavier. It has a 1911, single action design. Its overall dimensions are larger in all factors--length, breadth and width.
So, you buy a new holster or pants a size bigger. You obtain a day-planner that carries the pistol securely. You spend time learning the manual of arms for a 1911 style pistol.
The problem here is us! If the pistol doesn't function as sold, why are we having this debate?
The Tourist
member
DPris said:
No, you're absolutely right.
But I get a tad agitated when I get scared. I can imagine an attack, a stoppage, a "slam-rack-bang" drill and broken pistol.
It if ain't right, the pistol should not have been released.
slam rack and bang
You can get by slamming in your kt magazines and Ruger lcp magazines probably as good as slamming the SR9 magazines also. All use polymer mag releases. I am sure they will do OK for awhile but I do think in time you will ruin the mag release. Not sure a steel mag release with a steel magazine and constant slamming might not produce the same results, but maybe alittle longer before it shows up.
I can say I never had a magazine ever pop out of my 3 kt mini guns, but I can also say I never slammed them home either. I have with every semi I have owned touched the release button upon insertion. To me just made good sense to treat it right. I don't feel it has ever slowed me down any either. and don't know about most but I don't carry a spare magazine with me when carrying. If I can't do it in 7 shots of my 9mm Kahr, then probably I am already dead.. These ccw guns are not race guns either..
You can get by slamming in your kt magazines and Ruger lcp magazines probably as good as slamming the SR9 magazines also. All use polymer mag releases. I am sure they will do OK for awhile but I do think in time you will ruin the mag release. Not sure a steel mag release with a steel magazine and constant slamming might not produce the same results, but maybe alittle longer before it shows up.
I can say I never had a magazine ever pop out of my 3 kt mini guns, but I can also say I never slammed them home either. I have with every semi I have owned touched the release button upon insertion. To me just made good sense to treat it right. I don't feel it has ever slowed me down any either. and don't know about most but I don't carry a spare magazine with me when carrying. If I can't do it in 7 shots of my 9mm Kahr, then probably I am already dead.. These ccw guns are not race guns either..
jfh
Member.
You're right, Denis. But, I do imagine my fine-motor skils going to hell in a SHTF scenario, and my reaction (given the amount of semi-auto shooting I've done) is liable to be what The Tourist suggests.
So, for me, the first five out the barrel will be from my M&P340; if I need more, then it's the next six / seven from the P3AT--and if I still need to shoot--well, then I probably am in deep dodo.
As for steel releases and magazines--I've never had to worry about this in my SA 1911s, S&Ws, or my EAAs and Kimbers. I don't routinely do this--e.g., drop-slam-rack/drop-bang--but when I have, the release hasn't failed. As The Tourist says, this (the LCP or P3AT) is a defense gun--and penny-pinching in this area is foolish for a brand's reputation.
Jim H.
So, for me, the first five out the barrel will be from my M&P340; if I need more, then it's the next six / seven from the P3AT--and if I still need to shoot--well, then I probably am in deep dodo.
As for steel releases and magazines--I've never had to worry about this in my SA 1911s, S&Ws, or my EAAs and Kimbers. I don't routinely do this--e.g., drop-slam-rack/drop-bang--but when I have, the release hasn't failed. As The Tourist says, this (the LCP or P3AT) is a defense gun--and penny-pinching in this area is foolish for a brand's reputation.
Jim H.
Again, this is a matter of different expectations.
Ruger envisions the LCP as a highly concealable carry package for use at close range. Basically, they didn't design it for combat reloads, for speed reloads, for hard reloads, or even for thousands of reloads. They designed it for loading, sticking in a pocket, and using close-up if necessary.
It's not built for hard use.
This doesn't mean "it ain't right", it just means it ain't the right pistol if you plan to use it "wrong".
Denis
Ruger envisions the LCP as a highly concealable carry package for use at close range. Basically, they didn't design it for combat reloads, for speed reloads, for hard reloads, or even for thousands of reloads. They designed it for loading, sticking in a pocket, and using close-up if necessary.
It's not built for hard use.
This doesn't mean "it ain't right", it just means it ain't the right pistol if you plan to use it "wrong".
Denis
The Tourist
member
DPris said:
You and Jocko bring up some salient points. And for the most part I do not disagree. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most of these Rugers sold will do yeoman service.
But consider what I see on the job. For example, Ernest Emerson designed the CQC-7 for Navy SEALs. He advertises these products as "hard use."
Routinely, I repair Emersons with chipped edges and damaged tips.
Do you remember the running gag they do in James Bond movies between 007 and his armorer "Q"? They are always quibbling over the destruction of equipment "out in the field."
And what about long term useage? If a pistol has some minor design flaws when new, imagine the issues that might arise after a few years. Did you ever read gun magazine articles about LEOs who have their back-ups inoperable because the cylinder has rusted shut?
If it can break it will. Build something idiot proof and they will create a better idiot. In my personal arsenal I have 25 year old pistols without any scratches, because I am careful with my things.
Having said that, I carry Tusseys, Emersons, Grahams and Striders.
jfh
Member.
I'll disagree, Denis. This is NOT a matter of different expectations, this is simply a matter of reasonable manufacturing materials selection for this firearm's intended use, as you've stated it.
If (either company's) design criteria includes a high probability of failure in a critical part after one or two- instances of highly-probable behavior, then their criteria needs to be reviewed.
That's what happened with my Kel-Tec.
I have no argument over (projected) life, plastic parts, etc., etc. in a pistol like this. It's the inappropriate selection of materials here (and the related cost issues, I suspect) that impinges on both the effective usage and the manufacturer's reputation.
So, hopefully, the LCP has an improved release--one made of more-durable material--that would hold for perhaps six misapplied insertions, if not more.
If (either company's) design criteria includes a high probability of failure in a critical part after one or two- instances of highly-probable behavior, then their criteria needs to be reviewed.
That's what happened with my Kel-Tec.
I have no argument over (projected) life, plastic parts, etc., etc. in a pistol like this. It's the inappropriate selection of materials here (and the related cost issues, I suspect) that impinges on both the effective usage and the manufacturer's reputation.
So, hopefully, the LCP has an improved release--one made of more-durable material--that would hold for perhaps six misapplied insertions, if not more.
I have no idea how many repetitions the mag release will withstand (the figure "six" was yours ), but the point is this- Ruger built the thing to provide a certain performance level at a certain price, and to be carried a lot. They did not build it to be shot a lot. Those who buy the pistol and expect more of the package than it was designed to give will eventually be disappointed.
Should Ruger have included a steel catch? Personally, I dislike polymer mag catches, and possibly they should have gone with steel. They may yet, if the plastic catches develop into a common issue.
I'm just trying to advise people that in buying an LCP they're getting a usable product, if used as Ruger intends it to be used.
Could the pistol be improved? Always, but look at how people gripe about the $1000 tag on the Rohrbaugh.
Denis
), but the point is this- Ruger built the thing to provide a certain performance level at a certain price, and to be carried a lot. They did not build it to be shot a lot. Those who buy the pistol and expect more of the package than it was designed to give will eventually be disappointed.Should Ruger have included a steel catch? Personally, I dislike polymer mag catches, and possibly they should have gone with steel. They may yet, if the plastic catches develop into a common issue.
I'm just trying to advise people that in buying an LCP they're getting a usable product, if used as Ruger intends it to be used.
Could the pistol be improved? Always, but look at how people gripe about the $1000 tag on the Rohrbaugh.
Denis
The Tourist
member
DPris said:
Yes, I know they gripe. Let them. It means nothing to me in my pursuit to acquire things that keep me alive.
If you tolerate junk, more junk will be built. That's why you have nine-dollar Chinese knock-off knives that look like Striders.
If the pistol works, wonderful. If it has design flaws, and people want to carry it, that's their issue.
All I'm saying is "not with my hand."
time will tell
guess time will tell on the Ruger lcp, whether it will last for whatever rounds some seem to think is to little or to much. same thing for the mag catch. Hopefully we are prejudging it and maybe even baseing our opinion on a gun built just like it. There has to be about a dozen 1911 mfg-er out there, most all part do interchange, so therefore are we to assume they are all exactly made the same, with the same quality standards and the same quality materials. I don't think so.
the only part that NEVER broke or malfunctioned on my 3 kts were the magazine releases. so I have zero issue with polymer releases. and for sure if anyone has any doubts about the Ruger, just please do not buy it, that might move me one step closer to getting my two that I have on order.
I have ask this question before "somewhere" I think the SR9 has a polymer mag release, are they having issues with that release going bad?
A cylinder rusting shut is certainly not manufacturing error. It is a LEO abuse.
guess time will tell on the Ruger lcp, whether it will last for whatever rounds some seem to think is to little or to much. same thing for the mag catch. Hopefully we are prejudging it and maybe even baseing our opinion on a gun built just like it. There has to be about a dozen 1911 mfg-er out there, most all part do interchange, so therefore are we to assume they are all exactly made the same, with the same quality standards and the same quality materials. I don't think so.
the only part that NEVER broke or malfunctioned on my 3 kts were the magazine releases. so I have zero issue with polymer releases. and for sure if anyone has any doubts about the Ruger, just please do not buy it, that might move me one step closer to getting my two that I have on order.
I have ask this question before "somewhere" I think the SR9 has a polymer mag release, are they having issues with that release going bad?
A cylinder rusting shut is certainly not manufacturing error. It is a LEO abuse.
Tou,
I'd modify that slightly: if the pistol has built-in limitations and informed people still wish to use it WITHIN those limitations, that's their issue.
And, if you don't, that's fine.
That's sorta another reason why people need to understand this pistol. If it can't give them certain things that they absolutely have to have (just as in chosing any other gun), then trying to force the package to produce those things is not well advised, and another choice should be made.
Denis
I'd modify that slightly: if the pistol has built-in limitations and informed people still wish to use it WITHIN those limitations, that's their issue.
And, if you don't, that's fine.
That's sorta another reason why people need to understand this pistol. If it can't give them certain things that they absolutely have to have (just as in chosing any other gun), then trying to force the package to produce those things is not well advised, and another choice should be made.
Denis
kahr P380
I have a standing first in order with my dealer. Love that little gun, looks just like my flawless PM9 and the kahr people tell me it is even smaller than the Ruger lcp and kt, and still comes in under 10 ounces. this is one hell of a quality made ccw, not cheap, but neither is life..
I have a standing first in order with my dealer. Love that little gun, looks just like my flawless PM9 and the kahr people tell me it is even smaller than the Ruger lcp and kt, and still comes in under 10 ounces. this is one hell of a quality made ccw, not cheap, but neither is life..
Dpris
+1 on that. If you dry fire the Ruger lcp or the kt, you will damage the firing pin -big time. The Ruger manual says to not dryfire it, now if you want to ignore what the owners manual says and do it and it screws up, and then bitch about it, who is to blame????
+1 on that. If you dry fire the Ruger lcp or the kt, you will damage the firing pin -big time. The Ruger manual says to not dryfire it, now if you want to ignore what the owners manual says and do it and it screws up, and then bitch about it, who is to blame????
berkbw
Member
A "pocket pistol" is not intended to be a "combat" weapon, per se. Tactical reloads under fire are not the intended use.
b-
b-
fletcher
Member
I hear that a lot, but have yet to see one in person that needed the fluff and buff to be reliable. That is another internet myth, IMO.
jfh
Member.
I bought my P3-AT last November, and did no fluff 'n buff routines. It did take me some sleuthing to figure out what was going wrong, however, and I had to study posts in the KTOG forums carefully to sort it all out. As I sorted it out, I did post my experiences there.
Other than that mag catch issue, it's been virtually 100%. In fact, for the last two hundred rounds or so--since the new release was installed--it has been 100%. I have a basic confidence in it; I sure don't hesitate to carry it.
I also have two more catches on hand, and some of the other standard needs, sent gratis by Kel-Tec. Their parts support has been exemplary.
Jim H.
Other than that mag catch issue, it's been virtually 100%. In fact, for the last two hundred rounds or so--since the new release was installed--it has been 100%. I have a basic confidence in it; I sure don't hesitate to carry it.
I also have two more catches on hand, and some of the other standard needs, sent gratis by Kel-Tec. Their parts support has been exemplary.
Jim H.
mag catch issues
I followed alot of the mag catch issues on the kt board, and it seemed that most of the issues with magazine popping out was usually to much excess polymer flashing left on the bottom of the grip preventing the magazine from seating in properly and just hanging on. Also it was even mentioned numerous times that the bottom magazine floor plates needed to be modifyied to allow full insertion. Seemed after most people did one or the other or even both, their issues were over with. Not saying that also kt didn't put out some bad magazine catches, for I am told now that if you have an issue with ur mag catch, that they will replace it with a metal magazine catch and supposably all new kt will be coming out with the metal catch. Some will consider that a big improvement for the kt and if it works out good, then indeed it is a good improvement..
I followed alot of the mag catch issues on the kt board, and it seemed that most of the issues with magazine popping out was usually to much excess polymer flashing left on the bottom of the grip preventing the magazine from seating in properly and just hanging on. Also it was even mentioned numerous times that the bottom magazine floor plates needed to be modifyied to allow full insertion. Seemed after most people did one or the other or even both, their issues were over with. Not saying that also kt didn't put out some bad magazine catches, for I am told now that if you have an issue with ur mag catch, that they will replace it with a metal magazine catch and supposably all new kt will be coming out with the metal catch. Some will consider that a big improvement for the kt and if it works out good, then indeed it is a good improvement..
wuchak
Member
HisSoldier said:
Unlike the Kel-tec, which has the Trigger Pin inserted from the bottom where it can fall out, the LCP has it inserted from the top.
GLocks also have inadequate plastic trigger too. They must be plastic junk too. Wonder how they got such a good reputation? I like how the snubby guys say "an equally light snubnose" Which would that be? The 10.5 oz TI revolvers on the market that kick like mad and are VERY difficult to shoot quickly or accurately under stress. No Thanks. I'll take shot placement and accuracy over a slightly more powerful round. Comparing the snub nose size to the LCP is also folly. The LCP is MUCH smaller and slimmer. I don't carry a snub because if I can carry that, I can easily carry a slightly larger real gun real gun like my M&P. The LCP isn't slightly smaller than my M&P its a LOT smaller. When I'm getting hugs from my brothers and sisters at church I don't have to worry about them feeling the slim and light pistol in my pocket while I still have a weapon of some firepower to defend myself and my family.
Oh yeah, My M&P has one of those crappy plastic triggers too. I'm sure its going to break at any second.
Oh yeah, My M&P has one of those crappy plastic triggers too. I'm sure its going to break at any second.
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