Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by westernrover, Nov 21, 2018.
If I can be of any assistance, I will be happy to help!
Thays my point, thats mythology. It does well but doesnt keep up and running a 454 has a few advantages. One being, it will run faster. I can run 340gr bullets 1750fps with no extraction or bullet pull issues. Cant do that with a 45 colt. I run 265 aframes at 1950fps. Cant do that with a 45 colt. I run 325 aframes at 1640 fps and 300 gr monometal solids at 1700+ fps and you cant do that with a 45 colt either. Plus. 454 sizing dies size the case smaller for more neck tension and less bullet pull which when you get hot is a huge factor. The 45 colt is great but not equivalent just as is the case with a 480 and 475.
i'm not going to take your word for this as bufflalo bore says different: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=61
the 454 casull has an impressive max pressure level, but seems a bit excessive even for buffalo bore.
Tim Sundles doesn’t load his 360 grain .454 load to potential for reliability’s sake. Less likely to pull crimp and cast bullets driven too fast don’t perform well. I don’t think any manufacturer is loading to spec anymore. CorBon used to load the hottest I believe...
Buffalo bore loads to about 50k psi in a 45 colt those are pushing 55-60k if you get em that fast. Double tap now comes the closest and max p has spoken as to the cast issue and why it doesnt make sense to run it fast at max. Corbon used to load their jacketed 360 penetrator to over 1500fps. If you read what tim wrote hes not contradicting anything im stating at all. Might wanna read again. Several here have witnessed how hard my loads run and what they do to game and how easily they are extracted from the gun with no pressure signs or load unreliability.
I know many manufacturers have backed off max pressure loads in .460, not for safety concerns, but for ease of extraction. Kinda how I load for my .460. My hunting loads generally run up to the point where empties need to be driven out instead of just pushed out with the extractor rod. When I get sticky extraction, I back down. Now iffin it were dangerous game I was hunting, I'd probably do it differently.
I had brutal recoil and stuck cases in my 5 inch Redhawk 45 Colt until I had the throats opened up for the lead bullets I was shooting. Suddenly extraction was a lot easier with "Ruger-only" loads, assuming pressure was relieved. It is the same story with two other Ruger 45 Colt models, in which the bore and throat diameters were out of sync. I am thinking you might want to check your bullet and throat diameters.
I own a few "big" bore guns:
Python 357 mag
Glock 20 10mm
Interarms Virginia Dragoon 44 mag
Ruger blackhawk 45LC
SW 500 with a 5" bbl.
Also have two 44mag carbines and a 50 AR.
The only one I don't enjoy shooting is the 500 SW. I'm not accurate with it and recoil is a bear. The dragoon shoots like a dream with its 8" bbl. The ruger was bought by my grandpa and never fired. My dad and I put 3 rounds each through the polished stainless bbl after his passing. It too was an amazing shooter, with lightest trigger I've pulled.
Maybe my big hands have a role in the felt recoil of the bigger pistols. The G20 is the perfect grip size in my hands. It's the only one I'd use in a self defense situation, unless the others were all I had. The big bore wheel guns are just a bit too big, and the 500 is nearly unweildly.
For a beginner in the big bores, I like a 44 mag for a couple reasons. First is the guns are usually heavy enough to mitigate some recoil. Second is the ability to use 44 special ammo before stepping up to the magnum. This makes getting comfortable with the gun easier, without the recoil and noise of the magnum. Third would be that the 44 mag isn't as powerful as some of the others like .454c, 460sw, 460 r, etc. It makes a good stepping stone into the world of big bores
in what firearm are you getting these velocities? what barrel length?
here is the link to john linebaugh made 5-shot 45 long colt blackhawk revolvers: https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/45conversion
i don't see much difference here. let me know what you are shooting because i like 454 casull and want to see how much more powerful it is over the 5-shot 45 colt.
Im getting these out of a 7.5” fa and bfr’s. I guess it comes down to semantics. I dont consider 200 to 250 fps diff on 340’s and 265’s to be nipping in the heels. That means im equal at 100 to what johns getting out of the muzzle on the 45 colt. Some people will say that doesnt matter. I beg to differ. I have alot of african and dangerous game animals down to show it does. There will be a repository of information and pics to show what different bullets at different velocities do coming soon. I have heard the various mythologies coming out of various sources over the years. What ive seen doesnt match what many say, but then again i dont base my views on what i saw shooting a couple deer and one bison. I shoot alot of things and just havent found quite frankly most of it to be true. When we are talking power out if a 45 colt, ya talking muzzle energy, momentum, or just plain damage experienced on large game?
I don't shoot lead in my .460, so bullet diameter is a moot point. I have checked throats and they are tight, but they are all the same. Kinda common on P.C. Smith .460s. Since the ammo manufacturers have backed off, I doubt it's just my gun they're doing it for. Good thing too, cause I don't buy factory ammo. Things is, I get the velocity I'm looking for with my handloads that easily extract.. My max loads for my gun give me almost the same as the max loads in the book. Accuracy is scary. Can't see any reason to change anything.
buffalo bore doesn't load 45 colt to 50,000 psi. tim has a lot of common sense. doubt corbon runs a 360 grain bullet in 45 colt at over 1500 fps. thanks for your opinion.
CorBon ran super high pressures in their old .454 loads. I don’t even recall any hot .45 Colt coming from them in the past. The only manufacturer I know of that exceeds 30,000 psi (or thereabouts) in a .45 Colt +P-type load is Garrett Cartridge with their .45 Colt “RHO” (Redhawk Only) load that runs at 50,000 psi give or take. I took the first big head of game with that load (a water buffalo).
Tim doesn’t load a .45 Colt that high but he has one .44 Mag load that runs 50,000 psi.
Then let me be clearer. Those speeds and the loads from corbon i speak of were 454 penetrator loads. They run super high pressures that are higher than the same weight lead projectile does. My point on buffalo bore ammo was that those are the pressures tim runs his 454 around, and therefore, not max pressure which is why some velocities quoted by some writers are nearly the same, they ran em at higher pressure. My point was that if you ran those 454 loads at the same speed as those buffalo bore 454 loads, which you could do in the right revolver, it would be higher pressure at in the 55-60psi range
There are at least two ways to relieve chamber pressure and stuck cases, and custom loads is one of them. Maybe if S&W throats weren't tight on a cartridge they initiated and effectively control, the ammo makers would not have to back off on their loads.
and, obviously, i thought you were talking about 45 long colt loads. again, thanks for the opinion and info,
Yeah, i didnt make it very clear.
Isn't this "Ruger only" .45 Colt vs .454 Casull debate just a 'Hot Special' vs Magnum debate?
A shorter case means higher pressure to get the same velocity. Unnecessarily dangerous in some people's eyes. One of the only arguments for which, seems to be a slightly less weight in the holster. The other argument is the cost of a new gun chambered in the longer cartridge.
the limiting factor, in this case, is cylinder length. the 454 casull has a longer case but can't use the extra space with heavy bullets because the bullet will stick out the end of the cylinder. therefore, 5-shot rugers @ 50 or 60 thousand psi can approach the performance of the 454 casull. the 5-shot can't come close with lighter bullets.
When you say "5-shot Ruger" you're talk about a .45 Colt chambering in a cylinder of similar length than that used in a .454 Casull revolver? If so, I understand what you're saying.
yes, the same length. i'm talking about the single action revolvers that john linebaugh converted into 5-shot high pressure 45 long colt revolvers. i linked to the linebaugh website in a previous post if you want more info on this type of gun. he takes a stock frame and replaces the six shot cylinder with a five shot cylinder. less holes means more steel between the holes and, therefore, more pressure can be used in the loadings.
ruger makes a superblackhawk bisley revolver in 454 casull that has the same cylinder dimensions as their 45 colt blackhawk @ ruger.com
Yea, but ain't they carpenter steel? Rather than the normal flavor the 45 colt comes in?
Then I do see what you're saying. Heavier bullets take up more cylinder length, which only leaves so much room for powder.
probably, ruger ain't gonna make a cylinder that wont take the 454 casull pressure! the 5-shot linebaugh cylinders are probably special steel construction, too.
the normal ruger blackhawk (new model) cylinder can, and does, take pressures well above the 45 colt saami max pressure. my stock 45 cal. blackhawk easily handles a 325 grain lbt bullet load that chronographs @ 1275 fps. this is out of a stock ruger blackhawk, not a custom. the 5-shot custom guns can handle a lot more pressure than this.
note: this is a large frame ruger blackhawk, not a small frame convertible. never try this with a convertible!
Separate names with a comma.