Self Defense Scenario- What would you do?

[mrokern]

But your subjective feeling may not be enough. The legal test is whether a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. So someone who is especially nervous or fearful and who overreacts may find himself in serous trouble even if he truly, subjectively felt in fear for his life.

Yup. And folks seem to forget that reasonable means whatever a jury decides it means.

 

[navyretired 1]

I agree with both of the above statements and as I said there are other defensive positions before going to guns, but unless the GG feels threatened of deadly force he would/should not esculate to gun especially brandishing it.
When it's time for guns 1. you better feel real fear, 2. tried all other recourses (retreat, telling the BG's your feeling threatened and 3. If you pull it you better be ready to use it.
A gun is not a flag that you wave around.

 

[KarenTOC]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you dont want any trouble, then go for your pistol. Let's assume you brandish it at this point. You tell them in a loud voice to "back off" or "get out of here" etc. They run away, You call the police, they pick the guys up, and they say "some crazy guy pulled a gun on us and we just complimented him on his car."

Why does this remind me of "Bonfire of the Vanities?"

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

You call the police, they pick the guys up, and they say "some crazy guy pulled a gun on us and we just complimented him on his car."

Like several others, I'd try to avoid the situation and retreat if possible.

Since I live in Kentucky, which is CCW-friendly, I'd take my chances with the D.A. not prosecuting me. I'm a high-school teacher with a spotless criminal record. I'm what a LE friend of mine likes to call "a citizen" - meaning I'm law-abiding and try to avoid trouble. In this state at least, most prosecutors wouldn't bother filing charges, especially if any of the men who approached me had any kind of criminal record.

KR

 

[Frank Ettin]

You call the police, they pick the guys up, and they say "some crazy guy pulled a gun on us and we just complimented him on his car."

Like several others, I'd try to avoid the situation and retreat if possible.

And if you were the first one to make the report, you'd have some credibility. And the guys the cops pick up would have a lot less. If you were really the aggressor, why weren't they the first to call it in?

 

[JMusic]

I would continue to the car and tell the people to not come closer. No threats just a confident individual get in and leave.

 

[HexHead]

Another story that comes to mind, from a guy at a gunshop. A road rage incident were this guy cut him off and slams on the brakes, I think. Or does something that makes it set up where they are both stopped. The rager gets out of his car with a tire iron and comes up to the driver window of the guy behind him. Just as he was about to take a swing, the gun shop guy pulls out his 1911 and waves it in the window. The rager drops tire iron and runs, not walks back to his car and tears off out of there. Just so happened that an undercover statey was following this guy for a bit, saw him try and clip a few other drivers already. The cop left his card with the gun shop guy just in case he tries to press charges for you brandishing. Before he speeds off to pull the guy over. kinda shows how some bad guys will try and stick it to ya after you defend yourself.

This reminds me of a story my HCP instructor told us. He was with his wife in the car behind a pick up truck at a red light. The light changed and the truck wasn't moving, so he tapped his horn. Guy in the pick up gets out of the truck, says something like "I'm gonna teach you some manners" and grabs a tire iron out of the bed of his truck and starts approaching the instructor's car. The instructor said he got out of the car, using the driver's door as a shield and drew on the guy telling him to turn around and get back in his truck, if he came any closer, he'd drop him. Guy turned around, threw the tire iron back in the truck and drove off, cursing.

 

[HexHead]

And if you were the first one to make the report, you'd have some credibility. And the guys the cops pick up would have a lot less. If you were really the aggressor, why weren't they the first to call it in?

Do you really want to call the cops and admit to brandishing?

 

[Sam1911]

Do you really want to call the cops and admit to brandishing?

He who contacts the police first is usually the "victim" in the official view of the encounter.

Assuming that you are acting in a reasonable manner and in fear of grave bodlily injury or death, contacting the police promptly gives them the opportunity to view the case from your perspective. It also lets them know to be on the lookout for suspects matching the dscription you give in the area where the encounter took place.

The worst-case scenario is that someone else (even the "bad guys" in this case) contacts the police and reports YOU for brandishing, and now YOU are the suspect they're looking for.

General rule of thumb is, any time your gun clears leather, you should be contacting the authorities ASAP because if the situation was serious enough to draw, then a crime either took place or was about to.

 

[easyg]

He who contacts the police first is usually the "victim" in the official view of the encounter.

Not true.
Especially in the courtroom during a trial.
It really is insignificant who calls first.
Evidence is evidence....who calls first is just incidental.
Any cop who actually thinks that whoever called first must be "the victim" is a complete idiot.

 

[Fred Fuller]

easyg,

I'd be interested in hearing about the training (BLET/academy, law school etc) and street or courtroom experience responsible for your viewpoints which led to the comments above...

lpl

 

[Sam1911]

Interesting opinion easyg, but this is a case where evidence is ephemoral, at best. Testimony, of you, of the "others," of the responding officer, and of the 911 tapes is probably all the authorities have to go on in the matter.

Attitude and actions following the event can count for a lot.

Will you be detained? Will you be arrested? Will this go to trial? Will you be convicted by a jury?

All can be affected by how you present yourself and what you do in the moments following the altercation.

If you contact the police, voluntarily meet with an officer, give a statement, and appear helpful and honest (not saying too much, of course) you've done a lot to establish credibility and identity as the wronged party.

It is possible that the other party has also contacted law-enforcement as well (though in the original post scenario, probably unlikely). Now there are competing sets of testimonial evidence. But absent your contribution, the other side's evidence is all the cops have to work with.

And, if there is evidence of a prosecutable offense, the record of your 911 call will be played in a trial. That's your voice establishing your fear of the situation and your mindset at the time. Without that evidence on file you may find yourself listening (along with the jury) to only the other 911 calls made -- about YOU. ("OMG, this guy just pulled a gun on my boyfriend...!" etc.)

Any cop who actually thinks that whoever called first must be "the victim" is a complete idiot.

Of course I didn't say "must be 'the victim.'" I said that your actions in seeking out the police and reporting a crime or attempted crime can certainly benefit you. Of course if there is evidence and it indicates that your story isn't true, a good officer isn't going to persist in believing you to be the innocent party. But you didn't really think I said that, did you?

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Fist off, You were never in imminent danger per your CS. your spidey sense "i sensed" trouble is weak. you brandished your weapon and they rightly scattered away due to you flasing out you piece. they reported it to the police, rightly so, you would be dealing with the repercussusions. Stay safe my friends. act judiciously with a CHL asa you are an ambassador to all gun owners. wish you the best, sir. I am not an expert, just a concerned citizen for gun owners rights, who are always fighting an uphill battle against an often prejudiced and mis-informed, always vocal anti-gun establishment.

 

[LemmyCaution]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen.

STOP.

At this point, I change course and avoid direct conflict with a larger, potentially better armed group. That's a good tactic, whether you're in a parking lot or a war zone. Discretion being the better part of valor.

I don't allow them to come closer, as you do in your scenario, or get within speaking distance, or surround me. I stay in control of myself in the situation, and don't escalate it.

If I am pursued, I run. If I get cornered, only then do I draw. Violence is the absolute last resort. And if I am cornered, having made every reasonable effort to avoid conflict, I feel completely justified in using lethal force to defend myself. Would any here disagree?

Then, should I emerge from the conflict alive, I call the police. I do not call when the situation is hot. After all, where are you when you are 'on the phone?' Not there. One needs 100% of one's situational awareness in the moment. You do not have that when a 911 operator is taking command posture with you over the phone. They can run the show when the threat is over.

For those who would think less of me for not standing my ground, I counter that everything I detail above is self-defense. Maybe not defending my pride or my ego, but my self.

 

[Budz]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you dont want any trouble, then go for your pistol. Let's assume you brandish it at this point. You tell them in a loud voice to "back off" or "get out of here" etc. They run away, You call the police, they pick the guys up, and they say "some crazy guy pulled a gun on us and we just complimented him on his car."

Obviously, this would be different if you are with an acquaintance who can back you up. Have you ever heard of this happening? It seems entirely plausible. Have you ever heard of good ccw owners getting into trouble this way? How do you protect yourself as a law abiding ccw holder if this happens?

It's too vague. What do you mean by thugs? Are their pants sagging, or are they wearing colors? How old do they look? It could just be college kids seeing if you'll buy them beer. They might just be going somewhere, and you are in the direct path. There's so far no concrete reason to believe they intend to harm you. Based on the vagueness of the original post, i can't see any justification for drawing a pistol on them.

 

[combatantr2]

riding on the scenario, id just tell the police the reason i took my gun out bcuz the guys were circling me, if that would be a group of people. if against a lonesome perp, id just say he threatened me with bodily harm. if he or they explain to the police, saying their just complimenting on the nice car, sure i can make up stories on my own.

criminals are creative and good guys can be as well.

 

[Johnny Lightning]

I think the problem in this scenario is that you are not sure on thier intent. If they are coming at me slowly I would start to back up slowly facing them. Seeing that I am backing up (keeping distance between me and them) they will see that I feel threatened and hopefully if they mean no harm they would stop moving toward me. If they would continue to come at me I would loudly tell them to stay back giving them a warning. At this point they know that I am uneasy in the situation and they are the ones creating the situation if there is one at all. At this point the scale can tip in either direction hopefully in the direction that there was a missunderstanding and they move off in one direction and I go to my car and all is well. On the other side if they keep coming at me in a threating manner and close the distance between me and them (after warning them) I would warn them once again to stay back. At this point you can see the intent - not good. I would feel that my life was in jeopardy and feel that it was time to use my LAST RESORT. You use the gun only when you have exhausted all other options to protect yourself. There again this is only my opinion on the situation as i see it.

 

[mrokern]

riding on the scenario, id just tell the police the reason i took my gun out bcuz the guys were circling me, if that would be a group of people. if against a lonesome perp, id just say he threatened me with bodily harm. if he or they explain to the police, saying their just complimenting on the nice car, sure i can make up stories on my own.

criminals are creative and good guys can be as well.

I've seen some really bad ideas on the internet, but this may take the cake in recent memory.

I don't even know where to start.

Does the phrase "YOU WOULD BE COMMITTING A CRIME" mean anything?

-Mark

 

[uspJ]

riding on the scenario, id just tell the police the reason i took my gun out bcuz the guys were circling me, if that would be a group of people. if against a lonesome perp, id just say he threatened me with bodily harm. if he or they explain to the police, saying their just complimenting on the nice car, sure i can make up stories on my own.

criminals are creative and good guys can be as well.

i wouldn't suggest this.

if another witness comes forward and tells police that they never circled you, you would have lost all credibility with the police which are who you have to convince that your actions were justified.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Never lie about an incident. Lies have a way of being found out. Once you've been caught in a lie, folks are going have a tough time believing anything else you say. You really need people to be willing to believe what you say.