Should I buy an R51?

[berettaprofessor]

For those who are just buying an R51, I've got to admit its growing on me...I have 192 rounds through mine. Some tricks to assembly/disassembly and other observations are in the linked thread below, particularly post #38 which has a great link to The Armed Bear, and post #39, which has some tips.

http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=125411&page=4

 

[Capybara]

Freedom Group "Remingtons" have a high percentage of defects. I have owned two with six manufacturing defects between them, new from the box and will never buy a Freedom Group products again. Pre-Freedom Group Remingtons generally were good guns. But things change, accountants now run the company and they cheap out, QC goes out the window and they fired all of the experienced and knowledgable workers.

 

[meatballs]

Ruger LC9s is much better.

 

[barnbwt]

Finally got a chance to check one out today (well, all but the most important part, the trigger, stoopid Bass Pro) and they are definitely better, but definitely not impressive. Better fit/finish generally from what I could tell taking the slide off, but still uneven wear on the camming surfaces even on an unfired model. That said, the wear was of the peening variety vs. abrasion or cutting, though it was much more apparent on the left cam surface alone.

 

[Ibmikey]

Over four hundred rounds through my R 51 and still number eleven being the only malfunction. The pistol can group it 's shots within a 2" circle at fifteen yards offhand, probably better for young stance and eyes. As far as my pistol's performance is concerned it has kicked sand in the face of the detractors of the R 51, most of which are generally against anything new, especially Remington.
So far my recent purchases of Rem ( freedom group) firearms are:
2 Bushmaster carbines, RM 380 pistol ( over 200 rounds without a malfunction),
R 51. All have been assembled with great care, parts fit properly, ease of maintenance ( except the R 51) and flawless operation through many hundreds of rounds for the pistols and thousands for the Carbines .

 

[haiauphixu]

a picture worth a thousand words

 

[haiauphixu]

a picture worth a thousand words

 

[barnbwt]

Words, or dollars?

 

[larryh1108]

If it's good enough for mikey it's good enough for me. I just pulled the trigger on one. I get it Sunday. I look forward to getting it and hope it fares well.

 

[Ibmikey]

Hi Larry, Had the R 51 out again yesterday and ran 100 Win Steel case...it did not like it with three malfunctions, then ran a half of a box of Blazer Brass without a problem. The steel...slide locked back with one round left in mag, one nosedived in the mag and required removal of the mag, cannot remember the grief on the third but immediate action had her rolling again. So far all four malfunctions are with steel cases.
Still have more trouble than usual to reassemble but attributed to my physical limitations. Using a snap cap i have cycled and dry fired several hundred times to help mate surfaces. Still like the pistol a lot, will make a very easy CC pistol for someone who wants a fast natural pointing 9 mm for carry 7+1).
I doubt i will CC this pistol as i am stuck on my P938 or P238 for that purpose.
Next shoot day (Sat) will see a box of Remington 124 gr FMJ fed rpthrough the R 51, i am running much more ammo through it initally just to report results to the skeptics who report on items they have yet to hold or shoot.
For Capybara, I must totally disagree as i have purchased after Freedom take over, and all without defects: DPMS AR, Two Bushmaster AR's, Rem R 1 SS, RM 380 and the R51. Sorry you did not have my results with Remington.
Larry let us know your observations on the new pistol and tell me if i think their instruction manual stinks with the small dark photos of important steps on reassembly.

 

[larryh1108]

I will share my results/thoughts. I do not own or shoot steel ammo since I reload and never liked steel cased ammo. I've wanted one since they came out a few years ago but wanted to wait until the bugs were worked out. I researched the Remington site and it seems they re-engineered the R51 after the terrible initial release. When they re-released them I wanted to see how they fared and your posts is what pushed me to just get it and if there is problems I'll let Remington sort it out. Mikey is experienced enough and speaks no BS about anything so his opinion sits high with me.

I am very happy with my choice of a carry weapon. It's my PCR. I sold my Kahr PM9 and Kimber Solo when I decided the PCR was the right choice for me. I hope my wife sees this R51, likes how it looks and feels and if the slide can be racked as easy as they claim and the recoil is reduced, as they claim, then she may just decide she likes it and wants it. I'm hoping this is how it works but if she is not interested I'll have a nice 2nd choice for carry, if it passes the carry test. No matter what, I feel that ~$350 + or - is not a lot to gamble on finding what may be a nice gun.

 

[commygun]

Even with all the negative press I would take a chance on a R51 if it were not for that cheesy skeletonized trigger they decided to put on it. Cheapens the look of what is an otherwise stylish pistol.

 

[barnbwt]

I keep saying that a nicer trigger would be an easy turn-key product, once the pistols are more established. My only concern is the possible drop-safe ramifications*, though an aluminum or simply *nicer* plastic lever would alleviate them

TCB

*long time back in another thread, I believe we came to the conclusion that if the pistol were dropped on the safety lever, it could depress before the trigger lever bumped into the internal safety stops, possibly allowing the gun to fire. The WAG theory is the original solid blade trigger was more massive, and therefore vulnerable to this type of discharge, so a cheese-tacular skeletonized version was substituted after pre-production. Basically similar situation to the Glock's need for a trigger-dingus to prevent the striker from releasing itself in a muzzle-up drop, only the R51's lever is located in a more exposed location than inside the trigger guard.

 

[Ibmikey]

Larry, your wife should be able to work the slide, my problem with the pistol is maintaining pressure on the grip safety while firing. If not fully depressed it does not fire and my brain tends to wander to sight picture, proper hold and smooth trigger pull-- squeezing the grip harder than normal is a little unsettling. Also thanks for the plaudits, if the pistol was a slug I would say so but it is still unique looking and functioning and i like it.
Barnbwt, I am fumbling with the pistol right now and do not see how the grip safety lever could possibly be activated in a drop. It is pivioted at the base and has considerable spring tension as well as being well protected by the frame. The only easy way to depress it is to hold as high as possible where tension is the least. But if man can design it someone will figure out a way to shoot their foot!

 

[barnbwt]

A drop on a rail or ledge can get far enough up the backstrap to depress the safety (at least theoretically)

 

[Ibmikey]

That is the reason for the last sentence

 

[larryh1108]

Well, I got my R51 today and I was happy with how it looked and felt. For a sub-$400 gun it exceeded my expectations for fit and finish. I took it down to give it it's initial cleaning and it was a bit difficult only because it was unlike "the usual" field stripping. Mikey, you are right, the manual needs to have bigger pictures that are also more clear. I did "cheat" and I read the manual online at the Remington site before I got it and while I was field stripping it. You can enlarge the pictures to see them clearly. I took it apart and put it back together 3x today and on the 3rd try I was able to do it relatively easy once all the parts had a place in my mind. I found the toughest part was getting the slide on the frame. The breech block assembly was hitting the frame because it sat too high. Pulling the barrel forward to put the block assembly in hurt a bit because the barrel ramp and cuts are sharp. I figured out that you can put the slide stop in the barrel lugs and pull the barrel forward enough to drop in the breech block and then (the trick I learned) I put the frame on the slide while I was holding the barrel forward enough to allow the breech block to sit flat. After the slide cleared the breech block, I let the barrel go and the slide went right on. Using the slide lock as a tool made this whole exercise easy and pain free.

I ran a box of cheap Blazer Brass 115gr RN thru it without a single hiccup. Accuracy seemed fine too. The mag held open when empty each time and there was no premature hold open. It was 100% for the first 50 rounds. I did get a slide nip on the first round because I held it as high as I could because of the grip safety but I said "screw it" and just concentrated on aiming and trigger and it fired every time with no slide bite so the grip safety is a non-issue.

Overall, I am very happy with this gun thru 50 rounds and the feel, fit and finish is better than expected. If it holds up I would say Remington hit a home run.

 

[Ibmikey]

Larry, i am happy your pistol is a keeper, we are still fighting against the comments by those who have not bought one , fired one or possibly even held the pistol. I will try your slide stop trick, i have a rubber coated knife sharpener that i use as a pusher that also works well for me. I got a High Power from Cole Dist. saturday and a couple of AR's to sight so will shoot the R 51 again tomorrow with 124 gr Remington.

 

[lincen]

Going on three weeks since I sent my 2nd generation R51 back to Remington. I was an early buyer of the 1st generation and actually had only 5-6 feed issues in 300 or so rounds. Sent it back and took the R1 in trade.

Waited for reports on gen 2 and made the plunge. Mine was basically a single shot pistol. Tried 4 different types of ammo and same problem. Really like the gun and am hoping Remington will either get mine right or replace it with a new one. It did show one spot on the aluminum frame where there was a small but clearly seen area where the metal had been gouged. Not there at first but there after shooting.

 

[Ibmikey]

Just came back from shooting American Eagle FMJ and it digested a box without a hiccup....the pistol does shoot 3" low at 15 yards.

 

[larryh1108]

3" low with AE ammo or all ammo?

 

[Ibmikey]

This was the first time on paper, all my other shooting wasd at varied ranges at rocks in the quarry just to put rounds throuugh the pistol. Seemed to do ok at 25+ yards on small targets. Dead center hold at 15 and she was 3" low, as was my High Power, it could have been the light or the AF tankers doing touuch and go's (quarry is 100 yds directly off the end of military runway) about 100' above. The next time i will use Remington 124 gr which i forgot this time. Also very windy yesterday.
The main thing to report was no malfunctions with AE brass FMJ and i unconsciously held the grip safety down while firing, i thought this may be a problem under stress but apparently not.

 

[Boarhunter]

I have an estimated 700 rounds through my second gen R51, and I continue to be pleased with its performance, though the gun is not perfect for my purposes (as few are).

Apparently common to others, the point of impact is approximately 2 1/2 low at 25 feet. I have adjusted for the setting by simply putting the front-sight white dot on top of the intended target, and that essentially cures the problem for the time-being. It is not perfect as virtually all my other guns are set up POA=POI at that distance. I am replacing the factory sights with Trijicon night sights. Whether that makes a difference remains to be seen.

A second issue I have with the gun is operational. After 40 years of shooting single-action guns with manual safeties (primarily 1911s, but also BHP, M&Ps, and CZs), my strong-side thumb seeks out something to press during the draw and during firing. In fact, my favorite guns have a nice shelf of a manual safety on which I rest my thumb. That is not a good practice with the R51 as the slide release is perfectly positioned for me as a thumb rest...and that is not good if you want the slide to lock back on an empty mag. I have adjusted to something more like a revolver grip to avoid resting on the slide release.

Disassembling the gun is not the easiest, and putting it back together is quite a challenge (understatement). I have done it 5 times already, and have been tempted to curse each time (sometimes successfully). But I have always gotten it back together properly with persistence and without the aid of a gunsmith (the youtube video is very helpful).

But the gun shoots very well. Very reliable. Rapid fire is a dream; perhaps its best feature, in my book. And it carries very well in a CrossBreed IWB holster.

I like the gun. It is not perfect, but I really like it. It will not replace my go-to daily carries (EMP and CZ RAMI), but it is one I will carry and shoot a good bit.

BOARHUNTER

 

[barnbwt]

Disassembling the gun is not the easiest, and putting it back together is quite a challenge (understatement).

I swear, sometimes I feel blessed that the first autoloader I spent any time with was a CZ52. I have very high tolerance for poor sights, low trigger quality, difficult (and/or mildly dangerous) disassembly, and loooong grip profiles (also sharp corners).

Be thankful you don't need a cut-down screw driver, a padded vise, a face shield, and very strong & coordinated hands to compress that loooooooong heavy recoil spring back over the barrel (with very little support against buckling) and wrench it far enough forward to seat the barrel back in its pocket, before using your steel-plated rock crusher fingertips to pull down that stiff, smooth takedown plunger to get the slide back on/off the frame. I am

A second issue I have with the gun is operational. After 40 years of shooting single-action guns with manual safeties (primarily 1911s, but also BHP, M&Ps, and CZs), my strong-side thumb seeks out something to press during the draw and during firing.

I noticed this too, but quickly found I was just resting my thumb on my middle finger tip (quite low for the thumb come to think of it; perhaps this is why I'm not getting slide-bite?). Basically, make a fist and point like the evil monkey;


I did experiment with some alternate grip panels early on, and I did make the swell a bit thicker & taller on the left side, but found giving my thumb a place to rest actually made the recoil feel 'weird' to what I was used to by that point. This is giving me an interesting supposition as far as the grip discomfort some encounter now; maybe the 1911/etc folks out there used to a thumb shelf high up are squeezing the sides of the gun with their thumb trying to find good purchase for it, and in doing so are loosening the front/back grip force the gun needs to deactivate the safety and control the more in-line recoil of the low bore axis (the result is the gun slides back and forth inside their palm with each shot, smacking their palm, scraping the web of their hand against the beaver tail underside, and even releasing the safety)

TCB

 

[Ibmikey]

I have not experienced any of the discomfort mentioned above and was pleasantly surprised to find my worries about depressing the grip safety were for naught. I shall continue to shoot the R 51 and pass on my findings....good or maybe not so good.