So where does this fit? ("Knockout Game")

[herrwalther]

This particular story blew up my Facebook feed today with at least 4 people posting stories about it. So the great THR community, how does the right to self defense legally fit in with this game? This could also open up a good strategies and tactics discussion. So, thoughts?

Teens randomly assault strangers on street in new game called “knockout”

http://ruthless-politics.com/teens-randomly-assault-strangers-on-street-in-new-game-called-knockout/

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm moving it to S&T. If the resident moderators there don't think it fits, I think they'll move it in the morning

 

[Fred Fuller]

It fits here reasonably well, I think.

First of all, the "knockout game" is hardly new. It's been going on for some time now. Some sources report instances dating back at least to 1992 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_(violent_game)). And it has synonyms - polar bear hunting (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=polar+bear+hunting) or 'knocking out woods' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/22/james-francis-edwards-tweets-racist-messages_n_3794913.html).

And there's been one reported instance of self defense where the 'knockout game' was concerned that I know of -

http://www.guns.com/2013/08/29/knockout-game-victim-fights-back-40-cal-perp-says-just-wanna-go-home/
Teens playing ‘Knockout Game’ target unsuspecting passerby, victim fights back with .40 cal
8/29/13 | by Jennifer Cruz


One word of warning - this topic lends itself to excesses. If you plan to post on this thread, remember this is not your little brother's Internet. Maturity and decorum are expected - nay, demanded.

 

[herrwalther]

Thank you mods for moving it to the proper location. I could see this talked about in either place really.

This article was the first I really heard about this "game" in such a wide scale. One attack was in NJ, some in Seattle, some in London. I am mostly curious as to how this would change perspectives on tactics. I already like a personal bubble. If I see someone coming in my direction, I make sure I am a few feet away from them when I walk by.

 

[rem44m]

I am still in shock someone would do this to another person for no reason.

When I was a kid we toilet papered people's houses for fun and sometimes went "penny tapping".

If you don't know what penny tapping is google "penny tapping prank"

 

[strambo]

From the perspective of someone being assaulted...the motivation of the attacker is irrelevant and has no bearing on the legality of self defense/use of force.

Whether they are assaulting you for fun, or profit, or racial motivation, or mental disorder, it doesn't matter and unless you can read minds you won't know until after (if ever).

 

[boom boom]

Several issues may be involved here. One issue may be disparity of force as many of these incidents seem designed to occur with an audience, the second issue is that juveniles seem to be attracted to it, and last, it occurs typically in metropolitan areas.

Situational awareness is your friend if you are on foot--don't let people get close to you, look for targeting activity, beware of high crime/rough areas of cities where the wild yutes run.

Second, have a backup plan for fighting off of your feet if you do get suckerpunched. Even simple techniques such as rolling away or sweeping the feet of the attacking felon can work with practice. Distance is your friend.

Last option is deadly force which I feel should only do as a last resort and if traveling via air to cities like NYC, may not have access to anyway. Personally, I do not feel confident in using pepper spray in a close in fight--too much risk it might affect both of you.

Kubotan, martial arts, etc, might be applicable but require much training for effectiveness. In my case, as I have a bum leg anyway, I have been concentrating my less than lethal education in the direction of effectively employing walking sticks and stout umbrellas. Simple, ubiquitous, and useful even in the severely restrictive states. You can also take them with you on airplanes.

 

[DNS]

It constantly amazes me that in this day and age of non lethal self defense products some folks decide to be lemmings. What the hecks wrong with people?

I'd of given them more voltage than the local nudie bar sign or played the Hose Down Game.

 

[netav8tor]

"Intended Knockout Game victim shoots back"

http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/intended-knockout-game-victim-shoots-back/

colin flaherty 8/27/2013

good read good links

 

[CA Raider]

that "shooting back" would have worked if he'd had a normal pistol.
It also would have worked if he fired the Taser before they got right on top of him. But there is one big drawback to the Taser - it's unable to handle several attackers who are crowding you. In a tight situation you are better off with a normal stun gun, or as I said a real pistol (provided you know how to retain control of the weapon during a shoving match).

I dont see any problem with responding with a high level of force, or lethal force, during one of these Knockout attacks. The news story explains it quite clearly - these attacks can cause injury or death. the threat is definitely the possibility of lethal force, and you have the right to respond that way.

CA R

 

[9MMare]

The behavior is appalling but I've been reassessing my SA locally anyway because of the snatch and grab thefts of cell phones. I dont have mine out much when mobile but I do check it when it goes off.

SA is SA but random targeting like this means they are waiting for that vulnerable moment when anyone might be distracted.

Reminds me of when I used to hang out in Manhattan...both for fun and as a park ranger in Central Park. ALWAYS walk and conduct yourself with authority...never look like an easy target. That's step one anyway.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

The best defense, IMOHO, is situational awareness and controlling space. You have to have your antennae up and be aware of people (how they act, where they are). Basic stuff I realize. Obviously there will be times someone gets close to you without you noticing, that's just the reality of the situation.

 

[stressed]

Most of these knockout attacks are for sport, with racist undertones.

The individual who shot the urban youth with the stungun, he didn't know if he was getting stabbed it happened so fast.

I remember a thread on THR here where one of our members was charged at by a kid with a stungun while he was carrying, and the kid broke off and went inside. Now it makes me wonder what the kid has done to people before and what he is planning to do with said stungun. He should notify police of address of said house incase there have been any stungun attacks in the area.

I've never seen anything like this myself although it's been reported to have happened here in the cities. I have seen in the metro where goblins slowly walk in the road and stop refusing traffic through due to "respect" or some other issues. Don't work out too well against a 1 ton diesel dually.

Don't look weak or like a target. They may scout you out, make numerous passes if they are in a vehicle and assess the threat, and if you are alone and they judge you weak they will swoop down.

 

[Mike1234567]

Sociopathic behavior is still on the rise, it seems. These people have no conscience what-so-ever. They feel nothing for anyone. Their souls are empty. The axis between absolute good/evil continues to narrow.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by CA Raider: I dont see any problem with responding with a high level of force, or lethal force, during one of these Knockout attacks. The news story explains it quite clarly - these attacks can cause injury or death. the threat is definitely the possibility of lethal force, and you have the right to respond that way.

It is important to understand that "can cause" won't cut it, nor will the "possibility".

Now is a good time to review the legal definition of deadly force.

As has been said, situational awareness is step one, and step two is a less than lethal means of self defense.

 

[scaatylobo]

my way

as a retired LEO who likes to think he "was" [ past tense ] bulletproof and a armed martial artist = I now see that I am an old man who might look easier than I did a decade or so back.

SO now I do the "situational awareness" ,as well as be prepared to be assaulted in a manner that could VERY easily cripple me [ 2 replaced knees & a shoulder = thanks to the job ].

That being MY [ yes ,only me ] view,I am as prepared as I can be to use LTL [ if at all possible ] or go to lethal force so as to not be crippled or killed.

I fully understand the outcome [ at least the possible one ] inasmuch as Zimmerman paved the way for LOTS of press.

I also actually believe it is better to be tried by twelve !!.

 

[armoredman]

Sociopathic behavior is still on the rise, it seems. These people have no conscience what-so-ever. They feel nothing for anyone. Their souls are empty. The axis between absolute good/evil continues to narrow.

Absolutely true - they have been raised with no moral compass, no moral center, and like Heinlein stated so long ago, have achieved nothing higher morally than a shaky gang loyalty as their highest moral guidance. This is the breakdown, deliberate and engineered, some might say, by those who have done their utter best to destroy family, faith and country to their own ends.

 

[CA Raider]

"It is important to understand that "can cause" won't cut it, nor will the "possibility".

Now is a good time to review the legal definition of deadly force."

it's a very good suggestion to go back and review the legal definitions. And in fact I think I will do that this weekend.

But to be practical - these Knockout Attacks involve a small hostile group of people. Several people grab the victim, while another one punches him/her in the face. In the moments that these people are in close proximity, I have got no idea of their "commitment to fight peacefully" - whatever that means. I have to assume they may be carrying a blade or a gun. And in fact one of those news stories did show that the guy delivering the knockout punch had a pistol on his body. Therefore, I do not have a problem with the application of a high level of force in these types of assaults. While the results may be "tragic" if some teenagers are wounded or killed, that fact is that they are putting their lives at risk if they attack people in this way. Doing stupid things can get you killed.

In reality, I would probably make a judgment call about the teenagers, how many there were, and what kind of physical threat they posed. I've got good martial arts training, and I don't have a problem with using it. But if the teenagers are big and aggressive, they could get shot doing this. Of course, it's all hypothetical because the laws on California where I live do not allow me to carry a loaded firearm in public anyway - Hahahahaha!!

CA R

 

[bainter1212]

"It is important to understand that "can cause" won't cut it, nor will the "possibility".

Now is a good time to review the legal definition of deadly force."

it's a very good suggestion to go back and review the legal definitions. And in fact I think I will do that this weekend.

But to be practical - these Knockout Attacks involve a small hostile group of people. Several people grab the victim, while another one punches him/her in the face. In the moments that these people are in close proximity, I have got no idea of their "commitment to fight peacefully" - whatever that means. I have to assume they may be carrying a blade or a gun. And in fact one of those news stories did show that the guy delivering the knockout punch had a pistol on his body. Therefore, I do not have a problem with the application of a high level of force in these types of assaults. While the results may be "tragic" if some teenagers are wounded or killed, that fact is that they are putting their lives at risk if they attack people in this way. Doing stupid things can get you killed.

In reality, I would probably make a judgment call about the teenagers, how many there were, and what kind of physical threat they posed. I've got good martial arts training, and I don't have a problem with using it. But if the teenagers are big and aggressive, they could get shot doing this. Of course, it's all hypothetical because the laws on California where I live do not allow me to carry a loaded firearm in public anyway - Hahahahaha!!

CA R

I live in CA and will have my permit soon, so to me everything you said rings true.
I am somewhat disabled and am unable to physically fight very well. I avoid fights as well as I can but if I am assaulted without an escape route I will go ahead and assume the intention is to kill me. This especially applies when my wife and baby are with me.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bainter1212: I am somewhat disabled and am unable to physically fight very well.

Physical infirmity contributes to a disparity of force, which is one factor in the determination of whether someone has the ability to cause death or serious bodily harm.

However, as the Larry Hickey case in Arizona so all illustrates, the disparity of force defense can be a difficult on on which to prevail in a defense of justification.

I avoid fights as well as I can but if I am assaulted without an escape route I will go ahead and assume the intention is to kill me.

If you have a basis for a reasonable belief that that is in fact their intention, you may be ok.

Otherwise, no.

 

[Leanwolf]

DNS - "It constantly amazes me that in this day and age of non lethal self defense products some folks decide to be lemmings. What the hecks wrong with people?"

Most people today live in a state of bliss and denial. "It won't happen to me so why worry?"

Until one day or night, it does.

Too late then to "be aware of surroundings," or to Be Prepared.

L.W.

 

[Tirod]

Examine the how and where: The perpetrators assume they will find someone on foot in their domain who will be an easy target and who will not fight back.

Exactly why it's being done in urban metros with a low CCW license rate.

Anywhere out here in flyover land, keep it under the bleachers, cause out on the street, you won't find anybody, and you very well could get shot. Barring that immediate response, the cops will be hunting down the perps so they can get to them before friends, family, or the victims tribal group does - to protect them from revenge.

People don't feel so powerless in small towns, and the level of ethics is still pretty high. Knock out is a game for deteriorating inner cities under the thumb of overzealous politicians who resent citizens exercising their independence - so if you think it's possible where you live, then goes to: when do you finally move out and leave it for the zombies?

Water's getting warmer and warmer . . .

 

[Warp]

One thing I'd certainly be willing to apply liberally, and right off the bat, is pepper spray. Which I always carry on my support side.

 

[Mike1234567]

There's no TIME for pepper spray because the <deleted> cowards blind-side you. The little individuals of illegitimate birth need to have their cowardly behinds kicked BAD several times so they understand how it feels. They don't know and they don't care because they're unfeeling sociopaths. Until we show them that we WILL fight back they have no fear and no conscience. If we live in an area which has this type of activity we must watch from the corners of our eyes at all times and be ready to do what we must.

 

[Warp]

There's no TIME for pepper spray because the <deleted> cowards blind-side you. The little basturds need to have their cowardly a$$es kicked BAD several times so they understand how it feels. They don't know and they don't care because they're unfeeling sociopaths. Until we show them that we WILL fight back they have no fear and no conscience.

Situational awareness.

Sure, there are no guarantees you'll see the possibility coming, but most people have none, so paying attention may well give you that time.

There's no question in what to do if they have already blind sided you. I don't think that's the question. If you are already under attack by a group and there is no time for pepper spray, the first thing to do, other than protecting yourself (chin, face, head primarily) is probably to draw and fire from a position of retention, and keep firing until they break off the attack.