AStone
Member
< ... chuckles slightly,
then with more gusto ... >
Someone can explain to me the 357 Magnum "struck by lightning" myth??
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then with more gusto ... >
AZ SIG Shooter
Member
Is it possible that the huge report and muzzle flash from these guns coming downrange toward you in enclosed or close range encounter could "help" the round stop someone? I'm thinking it could have a similar effect to one of the so-called flash-bang grenades they use now.
I do remember from the 1970's reading constantly about the startling effects of that 125 grain loading.
I do remember from the 1970's reading constantly about the startling effects of that 125 grain loading.
AZSig, yes, absolutely. My fellow LEO nyeti, who is a noted LE trainer, and sometime gunwriter, has posted on another forum that the .357 snubby is a "hand-held flashbang." I have used the term "sound and fury" to identify the same concept; let off a stunning explosion in someone's face, and cause simultaneous damage to his anatomy, and the effect is magnified.
Of course, the flash, bang, sound, and fury are visible to the shooter, too, but the shooter can prepare for it ahead of time, through training. I do not recall the flash at all from my shooting incident, but distinctly recall the "instant black hole," so I was paying attention. Then again, my shooting occurred in reduced light, not total darkness. FWIW, the load was Federal Classic 125-grain JHP; as available as fresh ammo in June 1993. The stuff from the early to mid-1980's flashed much brighter.
Nowadays, some of the .40 stuff seems to flash as bright as the .357 I shoot, which simply means that the flash retardants in today's gunpowder have leveled the playing field.
If you want a low-flash magnum load, the 145-grain Winchester Silvertip is good, and it also is not loaded to the firewall, so is less violent in recoil. The flash is a dull orange flame, even in total darkness. The Border Patrol and some Texas LEOs shot quite a few people with the .357 Silvertip, with good results. Through the mid-1980's to about 1990, my duty sixgun was an S&W M58 .41 mag, and I used the .41 175-grain Silvertip load, which also had the dull orange flash at night.
Of course, the flash, bang, sound, and fury are visible to the shooter, too, but the shooter can prepare for it ahead of time, through training. I do not recall the flash at all from my shooting incident, but distinctly recall the "instant black hole," so I was paying attention. Then again, my shooting occurred in reduced light, not total darkness. FWIW, the load was Federal Classic 125-grain JHP; as available as fresh ammo in June 1993. The stuff from the early to mid-1980's flashed much brighter.
Nowadays, some of the .40 stuff seems to flash as bright as the .357 I shoot, which simply means that the flash retardants in today's gunpowder have leveled the playing field.
If you want a low-flash magnum load, the 145-grain Winchester Silvertip is good, and it also is not loaded to the firewall, so is less violent in recoil. The flash is a dull orange flame, even in total darkness. The Border Patrol and some Texas LEOs shot quite a few people with the .357 Silvertip, with good results. Through the mid-1980's to about 1990, my duty sixgun was an S&W M58 .41 mag, and I used the .41 175-grain Silvertip load, which also had the dull orange flash at night.
A few more thoughts: If I have one or two opponents at close range in reduced light, I like the idea of the sound and fury of the .357 magnum. If in an extended gunbattle in real darkness, I would rather have less recoil, sound and fury, and something like a 1911, a true battle pistol, or one of my personally owned duty SIG P229s, really come in handy then.
cherryriver
Member
As much as I like my two-inch small frame Colt Magnum Carry, and as well as I have shot it from time to time (a five-yard six-shot "Bill drill" from the holster on an IDPA target, down one, in under three seconds, minor power ammo, timed and witnessed by a Glockaholic buddy I beat that day), I'd always thought I'd not care to have to use it in a fight indoors.
The concussion is intimidating outdoors; I always promise myself I'll try it indoors but never do.
In a bedroom hallway, it buggers the imagination. Talk about "light around the body"!
Instead of a reload, I think I'd be reaching for a fire extinguisher.
Edited to add: I also recall back around '72 that a friend of mine's partner put a half-dozen of those Remington 125s into the torso of a gigantic, drugged up Native American in a tenement hallway while said druggie was preparing to use a bayonet on my friend. The miscreant was not slowed, but Bobby managed to deflect the bayonet, and it still took four of Chicago's finest to stomp the thing out of the guy's hand.
The concussion is intimidating outdoors; I always promise myself I'll try it indoors but never do.
In a bedroom hallway, it buggers the imagination. Talk about "light around the body"!
Instead of a reload, I think I'd be reaching for a fire extinguisher.
Edited to add: I also recall back around '72 that a friend of mine's partner put a half-dozen of those Remington 125s into the torso of a gigantic, drugged up Native American in a tenement hallway while said druggie was preparing to use a bayonet on my friend. The miscreant was not slowed, but Bobby managed to deflect the bayonet, and it still took four of Chicago's finest to stomp the thing out of the guy's hand.
Gordon
Member
"'72 that a friend of mine's partner put a half-dozen of those Remington 125s into the torso of a gigantic, drugged up Native American in a tenement hallway while said druggie was"
Maybe 82 but NOT 72. In 1972 you only had the 158gr LSWC or LHP .357 or a full jacketed Hiway master . In 1972 the hot .357 ammo was 158grain Norma JHP that did not expand on less than buffaloe!Lee Jurras of Supervel started full production loading light 110 grain semijacketed HP .357 ammo commercially in 1973 . This was the "hot set up" in the middle 70s up until 1979 or 80 when Remington came out with the 125 semijacketed HP.
Maybe 82 but NOT 72. In 1972 you only had the 158gr LSWC or LHP .357 or a full jacketed Hiway master . In 1972 the hot .357 ammo was 158grain Norma JHP that did not expand on less than buffaloe!Lee Jurras of Supervel started full production loading light 110 grain semijacketed HP .357 ammo commercially in 1973 . This was the "hot set up" in the middle 70s up until 1979 or 80 when Remington came out with the 125 semijacketed HP.
aryfrosty
Member
My riding partner and I started carrying 1911s in 1974 and we could buy surplus mags for $3.00 and hardball 230 gr for $5.00 for 50. We looked like crazy and found no .45acp hollow points from Atlanta to Chattanooga and actually paid a gunsmith to turn cavities in the jacketed semi-wadcutter 185gr .45acp rounds for a while. We could find Super-Vel later in the 70s in .357mag, but still no .45acp JHPs in our area. I look back on those days and laugh at what we thought we knew. Gordon, We didn't begin to see 125 gr Remington flamethrowers until the early 80s as well. 1980 I believe. Regards;
Al
Al
Love my 686 and lil Marlin. One day I was out on the front porch and spotted a huge goundhog over on the side of the hill about 300 yards away, nonchalantly munching on the grass growing between two giant holes he'd dug. Just for giggles (and because there are livestock elsewhere in that field that might break a leg in his holes) I grabbed my Schaf's little leather v-bag and a handful of Rem. 158 JSPs, and took a seat with the gun resting in the bag on the porch rail. Now 300 yards is pretty far for this rifle, and I really had no idea how much hold-over I needed on the little shotgun scope I had mounted on that Marlin, but the ground was dusty, so I figured to get some feedback from the clouds getting kicked up. Turns out I was holding too high, about three feet being right, and after a couple of ranging shots, I was surprised that Mr. Groundhog was still standing there looking around like "what's going on." I swear he actually ducked when the third round cracked over his head, just six inches high. I concentrated on the fourth and was rewarded by this really loud "whump" which was the sound of the round impacting. He managed to crawl about four feet before he collapsed, and lay still, but that day I really fell in love with that little rifle.
Big Boomer
Member
Did someone say lightning? Or was that just thunder I heard??
If that's thunder what the hell is this?!?
If that's thunder what the hell is this?!?
Ah, yes! That brings back memories.
That would have been 1979, because that was the year that I bought my first .357 Mag, a Dan Wesson Model 15-2, plus a box of 125-grain Remington hollowpoints. This was at or around my 27th birthday on September 10 of that year, and the total cost OTD was right at $250.
MCgunner
Member
Those who dis Mr. Marshall and Mr. Sanow's work tend to be big bullet fixated and go to any lengths to "prove" that energy and statistics are irrelevant. Those who quote the "one shot stop" numbers tend to understand how statistics works (the only form of math in college I did decent at as it involved no Calculus) and are open minded as to the use of the stats when comparing the effectiveness of various calibers and don't read the stats too literally. It is a comparative thing, not literal.
I'm not sure why the big bullet guys care. I mean, the latest +P JHP .45 loads like the Speer gold dot 200 grainers put up impressive 90+ percentage numbers in M & S's stats. It's right up there with the .357 in its best loadings. Even the 9mm 115 +P is quite effective, though that might be the big bore guy's complaint. They just hate to see the non-American 9mm being effective at anything other than shooting rats. Or, maybe its that they have to justify .45 ball because that's all their 1911 will feed and it's down in the 60 percent range in the stats? Whatever.
If you can shoot it, yes, the .357 is VERY effective, one of the absolute best calibers for killing humans from a concealable handgun. However, the BG ain't gonna let you put your ear plugs in first, be aware of that. And, it is also somewhat barrel length dependent. Now, those stats are likely for 4" service guns, don't recall, but I think they separate out snubs now. I haven't read any of Sanow's stuff in a long time. It's interesting, but I just don't live by it.
I carry what I carry and I make sure I can use it effectively. I have .357s, but I find a subcompact 9mm auto a lot easier to put in a pocket and I ain't shootin' no Smith 12 ounce snub with a truly effective .357 rounds. IMHO, that gun is a .38 special with a long chamber.
I will say this, rather than carry a 1911, I think a lighter 4" K frame is easier to carry, though not quite as flat, and I'd far rather have 6 hot hollow point rounds out of a M13 than 7 .45 hardballs out of a 1911.
To each his own, though. If you feel your .45 or your .357 snub is the "hammer of thor" and worth the discomfort to carry, go for it. That's an individual decision. I know what works for me. That's all I really care about. I have a healthy respect for the .357 magnum's ballistics because I've seen what it can do in the field. But, even my little SP101 isn't quite as easy to carry as what I have on me 24/7, a pocket sized 9mm loaded with 115 grain JHPs at 1262 fps. I can shoot that gun very well, to, quite practiced with it even out to 25 yards on smallish targets, let alone gunfight range.
I'm not sure why the big bullet guys care. I mean, the latest +P JHP .45 loads like the Speer gold dot 200 grainers put up impressive 90+ percentage numbers in M & S's stats. It's right up there with the .357 in its best loadings. Even the 9mm 115 +P is quite effective, though that might be the big bore guy's complaint. They just hate to see the non-American 9mm being effective at anything other than shooting rats. Or, maybe its that they have to justify .45 ball because that's all their 1911 will feed and it's down in the 60 percent range in the stats? Whatever.
If you can shoot it, yes, the .357 is VERY effective, one of the absolute best calibers for killing humans from a concealable handgun. However, the BG ain't gonna let you put your ear plugs in first, be aware of that. And, it is also somewhat barrel length dependent. Now, those stats are likely for 4" service guns, don't recall, but I think they separate out snubs now. I haven't read any of Sanow's stuff in a long time. It's interesting, but I just don't live by it.
I carry what I carry and I make sure I can use it effectively. I have .357s, but I find a subcompact 9mm auto a lot easier to put in a pocket and I ain't shootin' no Smith 12 ounce snub with a truly effective .357 rounds. IMHO, that gun is a .38 special with a long chamber.I will say this, rather than carry a 1911, I think a lighter 4" K frame is easier to carry, though not quite as flat, and I'd far rather have 6 hot hollow point rounds out of a M13 than 7 .45 hardballs out of a 1911.
To each his own, though. If you feel your .45 or your .357 snub is the "hammer of thor" and worth the discomfort to carry, go for it. That's an individual decision. I know what works for me. That's all I really care about. I have a healthy respect for the .357 magnum's ballistics because I've seen what it can do in the field. But, even my little SP101 isn't quite as easy to carry as what I have on me 24/7, a pocket sized 9mm loaded with 115 grain JHPs at 1262 fps. I can shoot that gun very well, to, quite practiced with it even out to 25 yards on smallish targets, let alone gunfight range.
Cosmoline
Member
Oh come on. You're talking about a small amount of STATIC electricity. This is not going to do bupkus to anyone--anymore than the aforementioned st. elmos' fire. Just looks cool. The reason the .357 (or any other bullet) stops people and drops them is because it makes a jagged laceration through vital parts of their body and either shuts down the CNS or causes the circulatory system to dump blood, thereby causing shock as the cells starve for 02. It's biology boyos, not electricity nor magic zaps from the heavens.
I used to call my FN-49 Thor's Hammer. I think 8x57JS qualifies more than any handgun. And yes I am ritually kicking myself for having let it go after getting such a bargain on it. (kick kick)
Big Boomer
Member
I must apologize to the OP for ALL OF US because seems a simple rib jabbing has started into 357 blasphemy.
357...it'll kill ya just as dead as most other bullets, some better, some worse.
It's a piece of lead, and/or copper moving through the air faster than you can throw it. When it hits soft targets is changes shape as it encounters resistance, wow...so do all other bullets.
The 357 has a typically different shape oh the metplat, this has said to explain certain differences in performance. Basically it has a wider and flatter front section.
357...it'll kill ya just as dead as most other bullets, some better, some worse.
It's a piece of lead, and/or copper moving through the air faster than you can throw it. When it hits soft targets is changes shape as it encounters resistance, wow...so do all other bullets.
The 357 has a typically different shape oh the metplat, this has said to explain certain differences in performance. Basically it has a wider and flatter front section.
2ndamd
Member
Well said mcgunner.
Marshall still writes about how he too, was a big bore fan. His researched lead him to be more appreciative of the medium bores for two legged predators.
Marshall still writes about how he too, was a big bore fan. His researched lead him to be more appreciative of the medium bores for two legged predators.
jad0110
Member
Interesting, thanks for posting that MC
. The only large gun I carry is a 5" 1911 right now. Good to know that a 4" K Frame (or 2.75" Ruger Security/Speed/Service Six) is at least as doable. Carrying a 5" 1911 isn't at all hard to do for me, given a good belt and holster.For the record though, my 1911 loves hollowpoints, particularly 230 grain Federal Hydra Shoks and 230 grain Remmington Golden Sabres. Just gobbles 'em right up.
I like both big and medium bores for defense, and heck, I'm not above using small bore ... beats throwing rocks.
Shot placement and penetration.
dogngun
Member
I started shooting .357 magnums in the 1970's, when they were police issue revolvers, back before the great switch to auto pistols.
I hate shooting that round in anything other than a large steel frame revolver with at least a 4" barrel, and I prefer a 6" barrel.
I have shot lots of .44's, and .45's ,but the .357 mag is very hard for me to shoot well-it is really uncomfortable.
With the 125 grain JHP, any brand really, it is a very effective defence round, and a nasty SOB on both ends.
I love to read posts from guys who want to buy a Scandium frame 2" revolver and shoot magnums out of it. I really wonder how many of these guns see more than one trip to the range before they are either sold or loaded with .38 Specials.
Reminds me of all the bargains in used .44 mags you could find a month or so after a new Dirty Harry movie came out.
Get one and shoot it.
Lightning?
mark
I hate shooting that round in anything other than a large steel frame revolver with at least a 4" barrel, and I prefer a 6" barrel.
I have shot lots of .44's, and .45's ,but the .357 mag is very hard for me to shoot well-it is really uncomfortable.
With the 125 grain JHP, any brand really, it is a very effective defence round, and a nasty SOB on both ends.
I love to read posts from guys who want to buy a Scandium frame 2" revolver and shoot magnums out of it. I really wonder how many of these guns see more than one trip to the range before they are either sold or loaded with .38 Specials.
Reminds me of all the bargains in used .44 mags you could find a month or so after a new Dirty Harry movie came out.
Get one and shoot it.
Lightning?
mark
Gordon
Member
Actually my 520 NYSP overrun S&W is VERY controllable with 125Grain Remington SJHP ammo in rapid fire. My favorite fighting revolver if I had too really . I have trained with (but never carried on duty)twin 4" model 15's left and right with 4 speed loaders that can bring to bear quite rapid firepower with .38s.
IMHO the .357, with 1400+ fps quick opening loads , delivers a lacerated entrance wound that lower velocity can't. I think that kind of wound hurts real bad and kinda shuts down most bad guys. This is just my experience and has no science behind it.
IMHO the .357, with 1400+ fps quick opening loads , delivers a lacerated entrance wound that lower velocity can't. I think that kind of wound hurts real bad and kinda shuts down most bad guys. This is just my experience and has no science behind it.
slylikea_fox
Member
Now this might be slightly off the .357 topic but I do remember reading an article sometime back about a military test using a small caliber rifle at very high velocity. In the test they had shot a mule and the closest thing they could describe to what happened was electrocution. I'm not sure where at on the net I had read this but it sounded similar to the original question being asked. Maybe someone else could add or elaborate on this if I have forgotten something or told it wrong.
sgt127, I am getting there myself, especially with my right hand. Though largely a lefty, I did best with big, heavy DA sixguns in my right hand, and shot a lot of magnums from DA revolvers, over time. I now must use .40 ammo for duty, in a DA autoloader, and went with the P229, though I still carry .357 ammo in my SP101 backup snubbies. I use a gentle .22 K-frame sixgun for most of my practice, as it translates well to both the SP101 and P229. I may well convert my P229s to .357 when I retire, as I own my duty weapons.
Confederate
Member
This is one thing I've never understood about Massad Ayoob. In his book, In the Gravest Extreme, he calls the .357 "overrated," but since that time he's written countless articles talking about how great the 125-gr JHP is. Anyone know the story on that?
Jim March
Member
"In the Gravest Extreme" was written in 1980, at a time when ammo simply wasn't as good as it is today.
That alone is plenty of reason for Mas to have had a change of heart.
That alone is plenty of reason for Mas to have had a change of heart.
tipoc
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The .357 is over rated and 125 jhp is a good round. Both were true in 1980 and both true today.
Think, most law enforcement agencies went from the .38 Spl. and .357 20 or so years ago. This means that the number of shootings with .357 declined greatly. Yet this has had no effect on "one shot stop percentages" (leaving aside the accuracy of those claims). Think it through and it does not add up. The 98% effectiveness figure is based on info well over a decade old yet does not vary. Something does not add up there.
The .357 is over rated, it is a good round for many tasks but it is by no means the "best". It can be "the best" for any number of individuals who like it though.
.357 comes in many loads. Different loads can perform different tasks. Personally I prefer a 158 gr. bullet at about 1100-1200 fps from a snubby or 4" barrel this load works best for me for self defense. For hunting a 158 gr. round at 1300-1400 fps from a 6" tube works for me on game I would use the .357 for, coyotes, smaller deer and smaller hogs.
I don't try to get the .357 to do what a bigger bore does better with less muzzle blast and recoil.
tipoc
Think, most law enforcement agencies went from the .38 Spl. and .357 20 or so years ago. This means that the number of shootings with .357 declined greatly. Yet this has had no effect on "one shot stop percentages" (leaving aside the accuracy of those claims). Think it through and it does not add up. The 98% effectiveness figure is based on info well over a decade old yet does not vary. Something does not add up there.
The .357 is over rated, it is a good round for many tasks but it is by no means the "best". It can be "the best" for any number of individuals who like it though.
.357 comes in many loads. Different loads can perform different tasks. Personally I prefer a 158 gr. bullet at about 1100-1200 fps from a snubby or 4" barrel this load works best for me for self defense. For hunting a 158 gr. round at 1300-1400 fps from a 6" tube works for me on game I would use the .357 for, coyotes, smaller deer and smaller hogs.
I don't try to get the .357 to do what a bigger bore does better with less muzzle blast and recoil.
tipoc
AStone
Member
Still trying to decipher "over rated".
Compared to what or whom?
Who decides "over rated"?
Sources? Multiple sources?
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