understanding the .357 Magnum
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nitetrane98
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During my years as a LEO probably 80% of the officers I worked with carried some flavor of .357, myself included. A lot of us based our choice on M&S's research. Looking back analytically, there was likely to have been an astounding over-representation of .357's used in one shot stops. Even if they cherry picked and only used one shot stops based on numbers available the .357 couldn't help but come out the winner. However, the fact remains that there were a lot of OSS's with the .357. It earned a reputation with the Texas DPS as having "Thunderbolt" stopping power and was one reason they chose to use the .357 SIG when they transitioned to semi auto after trying the .40S&W. So I have read.
MCgunner
Member
I like .45ACP in autos. I prefer .357 in revolvers. I like 9x19 in pocket autos and .38 special in pocket revolvers. They all have a place in my collection. I have killed deer with the .357, very fine outdoor round. I love the versatility of it and revolvers, able to do small game with the .38 and plinkin' like a .22, yet the power to knock a 300 lb boar on is butt at 50 yards with a good 180 grain load. And, from a rifle, the .357 is a whole nuther story! .357/.38 is still my fav and what I load the most of with my press, but I do like the ol' .45ACP for things like pins, plates, pepper poppers, and such momentum games. In a fight, six of one, half dozen of the other.
As to the .357s rep, it comes from law enforcement and street shootings from the 50s on until the era of the wondernine when departments armed up with 125 grain JHPs from outfits like "Super Vel" in the 60s. These rounds were tough on K frames, but they just simply worked on the street. .45ACP, at the time, was a military round and it nor autos in general were in the holsters of the police. Revolvers were the tools of choice. JHPs developed in .357s and revolvers and really didn't make it to the auto scene for some time. They tended to make autos jam and there weren't that many autos to choose from in the first place back then. Glock hadn't even been thought of.
To understand why the word "magnum" had such a mystique back then, just watch Dirty Harry, "Magnum Force". LOL But, there was truth behind that mystique. The .357 magnum was and is a very good one shot fight stopper, at the top of the list in street shootings and there's LOTS of data for the round to back that up.
As to the .357s rep, it comes from law enforcement and street shootings from the 50s on until the era of the wondernine when departments armed up with 125 grain JHPs from outfits like "Super Vel" in the 60s. These rounds were tough on K frames, but they just simply worked on the street. .45ACP, at the time, was a military round and it nor autos in general were in the holsters of the police. Revolvers were the tools of choice. JHPs developed in .357s and revolvers and really didn't make it to the auto scene for some time. They tended to make autos jam and there weren't that many autos to choose from in the first place back then. Glock hadn't even been thought of.
To understand why the word "magnum" had such a mystique back then, just watch Dirty Harry, "Magnum Force". LOL But, there was truth behind that mystique. The .357 magnum was and is a very good one shot fight stopper, at the top of the list in street shootings and there's LOTS of data for the round to back that up.
Guillermo
member
Sorry, I just went to the firt convenient sight (speer) and pulled some #'s
Wouldn't the one-shot-stop be the very definition of "uber-stopping power"?
MCgunner
Member
.
Okay, based on this, I'm selling all my .357s and carrying my .22 NAA mini from now on. Anyone want a .357? It's free, ya know.
MCgunner
Member
You a city boy? Just wonderin'. Hogs don't eat people.
You have nothing to worry about. You have black bear, then there is a bit of concern, but there might be 2 bear attacks a decade in the US? I don't know, but it's low probability, put it that way. I don't worry much about critters, a little when I'm kayakin' around gators, but not that much. I usually have my .38 spl CCW on me. A gator will be dissuaded by a .38 if I had to use it. Plenty of time for a good head shot.I get about 600 ft lbs out of a 4" .357 with a good load that I get about 785 ft lbs out of my 6.5" Ruger Blackhawk with. I hunt with the blackhawk, but when hiking in bear country, the 4" medium frame DA goes with me, is plenty with a 165 grain gas checked hard cast SWC with 14.5 grains of 2400 pushing it. I've killed three deer and multiple hogs quite dead with the .357 magnum.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The .357 is a fine cartridge (I carried a Colt M357 my first tour in Viet Nam.) Now that I've established my bona fides let me point out that the .357 benefitted from one hell of a publicity job.
As everyone knows, the .357 is a stretched .38 Special loaded to much higher pressures. It was based on the earlier .38/44, which was a high-pressure .38 Special in a .44-frame heavy revolver. The genesis of the .38/44 was police complaints that the .38 Special would not penetrate car bodies. Since the .38/44 could be fired in ordinary .38 Special revolvers, S&W and Winchester (which developed the ammo) soon stretched the case to prevent such a mixup.
Douglas Wesson, the then president of Smith and Wesson, knew he had a winner, and he chose the name, ".357 Magnum." The Magnum name was coined by Holland and Holland in 1912 for their belted .375 and was responsible for that cartridge overcoming doubts that such a "small" cartridge was useful for big game in Africa and India. When H&H brought out a necked-down version of the .375 Magnum, they called it the ".300 Super" and it went nowhere. They changed the name to ".300 Magnum" and it did better. About the time the .357 came out, Ben Comfort won the Wimbledon shooting a .300 Magnum, and the name was on every shooter's lips.
Wesson worked hard to create the ".357 mystique." The early .357s were called "Registered Magums" and were special-order guns, which enhanced their prestige and snob appeal. Smith and Wesson fostered stories among police that it would shoot through the engine block of a car, and so on. Doug Wesson hunted with it, killing a polar bear as well as an african lion, and those feats were widely publicized.
So the legend of the .357 was deliberately created. It won't shoot through an engine block, and it really isn't adquate for big game, but the legend was more important that reality.
It is indeed a fine cartridge and probably offers the best balance between power and controllability of any self-defense or police revolver cartridge. In tems of "stopping power" (whatever that means), it is fully the equal of the .45 ACP and for a long time, before bullets that expand reliably at low velocities were developed, had a real edge.
As everyone knows, the .357 is a stretched .38 Special loaded to much higher pressures. It was based on the earlier .38/44, which was a high-pressure .38 Special in a .44-frame heavy revolver. The genesis of the .38/44 was police complaints that the .38 Special would not penetrate car bodies. Since the .38/44 could be fired in ordinary .38 Special revolvers, S&W and Winchester (which developed the ammo) soon stretched the case to prevent such a mixup.
Douglas Wesson, the then president of Smith and Wesson, knew he had a winner, and he chose the name, ".357 Magnum." The Magnum name was coined by Holland and Holland in 1912 for their belted .375 and was responsible for that cartridge overcoming doubts that such a "small" cartridge was useful for big game in Africa and India. When H&H brought out a necked-down version of the .375 Magnum, they called it the ".300 Super" and it went nowhere. They changed the name to ".300 Magnum" and it did better. About the time the .357 came out, Ben Comfort won the Wimbledon shooting a .300 Magnum, and the name was on every shooter's lips.
Wesson worked hard to create the ".357 mystique." The early .357s were called "Registered Magums" and were special-order guns, which enhanced their prestige and snob appeal. Smith and Wesson fostered stories among police that it would shoot through the engine block of a car, and so on. Doug Wesson hunted with it, killing a polar bear as well as an african lion, and those feats were widely publicized.
So the legend of the .357 was deliberately created. It won't shoot through an engine block, and it really isn't adquate for big game, but the legend was more important that reality.
It is indeed a fine cartridge and probably offers the best balance between power and controllability of any self-defense or police revolver cartridge. In tems of "stopping power" (whatever that means), it is fully the equal of the .45 ACP and for a long time, before bullets that expand reliably at low velocities were developed, had a real edge.
In terms of handgun ammo, the .357 may have been hyperbolized, but it still is as good a handgun round on humans as can be had. That is if you can deal with the noise and recoil of the round. I love revolvers and carry them and I admit that they are unpleasant for me to the point that I will not carry them. I carry BB 158 +Ps.
I wish people would stop worrying about carrying the "ultimate round" and just carry the one that they shoot best and are most comfortable with.
I wish people would stop worrying about carrying the "ultimate round" and just carry the one that they shoot best and are most comfortable with.
woodwrkr
Member
Hogs can in fact be dangerous. We have plenty of them around my neck of the woods.
Dogbite
Member
I am a big believer in both 357 magnum, and 45acp. I do prefer 45+p when I shoot 45 though. I have been shooting both these cartridges for 35 years, and I can tell you the 357 magnum is not just a bunch of hype. Any seasoned shooter knows it is serious business. It will take a deer with no problems(at bow ranges), and it is suburb as a defense round, having put armies of men in the morgue, likewise the 45acp.
As an aside -
Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.
Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.
This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.
Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.
Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.
This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Or as we say in the Ozarks, "I haven't laughed so hard since the hogs ate my little brother."
Confederate
Member
Not all .357 mags are superior to the .45 auto. When it comes to putting down people, the 125gr JHP tops just about any other handgun load. Going down to 110gr JHPs, the load comes apart too easily and often in the heavy clothing of the bad guy. Heavier loads like 158gr JHPs work much better on deer and bear, but they have too much penetration for humans and recoil is excessive.
The .357 mag is, in my opinion, a much better caliber because of its flat trajectory and its effectiveness out to 100+ yards. The .45 trajectory drops off rapidly and it loses its magic punch in relatively short distances. The 125-140gr JHPs also are superior in penetrating cars and trucks.
For the .45 ACP, I'd pick the 185gr JHP for best stopping power, but for sheer versatility, you can't beat the .357 mag. Neither is anemic by any means, but the .357 just allows users an incredibly wide variety of loads that work out to rather amazing distances. With just a 2.75-inch Ruger Security-Six, I was able to break orange clay pigeons at 100 yards one time out of three (and the other two kicked up dirt mighty close). I could never have hit close to that with a .45 or 9mm auto. With a 125gr JHP, I could hit a person more often than not at that range. And while it's true that you most often will not need to hit anyone or anything at that distance, I could comfortably hunt with a .357 or defend myself from black bear with heavier loads. I just couldn't do that with a .45 auto.
Having said that, the .45 offers greater firepower and would be superior for engaging multiple targets at normal encounter ranges.
The .357 mag is, in my opinion, a much better caliber because of its flat trajectory and its effectiveness out to 100+ yards. The .45 trajectory drops off rapidly and it loses its magic punch in relatively short distances. The 125-140gr JHPs also are superior in penetrating cars and trucks.
For the .45 ACP, I'd pick the 185gr JHP for best stopping power, but for sheer versatility, you can't beat the .357 mag. Neither is anemic by any means, but the .357 just allows users an incredibly wide variety of loads that work out to rather amazing distances. With just a 2.75-inch Ruger Security-Six, I was able to break orange clay pigeons at 100 yards one time out of three (and the other two kicked up dirt mighty close). I could never have hit close to that with a .45 or 9mm auto. With a 125gr JHP, I could hit a person more often than not at that range. And while it's true that you most often will not need to hit anyone or anything at that distance, I could comfortably hunt with a .357 or defend myself from black bear with heavier loads. I just couldn't do that with a .45 auto.
Having said that, the .45 offers greater firepower and would be superior for engaging multiple targets at normal encounter ranges.
texas bulldog
Member
how else do you propose to measure "one-shot stop" effectiveness? that study isn't the end of the discussion or anything, but to disregard it based on the above complaint seems to miss the point. of course, most all .45 ACP fans can't stand that study because .357 mag beat out their pet round. personally, i like both.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually, they faked the data. There are people they cited as sources who claim they never gave them data. That's why they won't release their database for peer review.
MCgunner
Member
Well this IS a .357 thread, but I don't fear hogs eating me. Low, though I walk through the valley of hog death I shall fear no evil, because I'm the baddest SOB in the valley. Hogs are scared of people, they know we are the top dog. They don't HUNT humans for food. They aren't polar bears. They will only attack if attacked. Wound a hog, blood trail it and catch up with it, and yeah, they're quite dangerous. I've been attacked by one, myself. One 165 grain .357 to the head stopped that post haste.
I've killed hogs with a knife, so I guess I'm tougher than ol' Davey Crockett, though. He did kill a bar when he was only three. I think I was out of 3 cornered pants by then.
Every time I go down to my place, I KNOW I'm being watched from the oak mots. They're so thick, you can't get in there, yet there are hog trails all in and out of 'em. That's where they all hang out. I hear 'em squeal every now and then back in those mots. I carry when I'm down there not because I fear being eaten, but because if I see one, I wanna eat HIM.
I've killed hogs with a knife, so I guess I'm tougher than ol' Davey Crockett, though.
He did kill a bar when he was only three. I think I was out of 3 cornered pants by then. Every time I go down to my place, I KNOW I'm being watched from the oak mots. They're so thick, you can't get in there, yet there are hog trails all in and out of 'em. That's where they all hang out. I hear 'em squeal every now and then back in those mots. I carry when I'm down there not because I fear being eaten, but because if I see one, I wanna eat HIM.
MCgunner
Member
Or, "Jist cause we're gitt'n a DEEvorce, does that mean we caint still be brother and sister?"
.38 Special
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That's a hell of an accusation, especially without any proof.
I personally don't think their work is the whole story, but I'm awfully sick of the character assassination and related bull**** that their detractors are always dredging up.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Pardon me, but people have denied giving them data.
And Sanow has said that they won't release the data base because of what their "detractors" might do with it.
Better have proof before you accuse others of character assassination.
Go here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm
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.38 Special
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You repeating something isn't proof. And "they won't release the data base because of what their 'detractors' might do with it" is already backpedaling, considering your original accusation was that they won't release it because it's fake.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Nor is your accusation of character assassination proof.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm
.38 Special
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I just knew you were going to put up a link to "firearmstactical". Those folks have been at the forefront of the "personal attack in lieu of substantive debate" crowd for years.
So, do you have any actual evidence?
So, do you have any actual evidence?
Gryffydd
Member
Federal doesn't even make any full power .357 ammo. Compare their offerings to Buffalo Bore and Double Tap. Federal's best in the energy department is 609 ft/lb. Buffalo Bore's push over 800 ft/lb.DBR said:
Gryffydd
Member
All it takes to realize that M&S were full of it is about 5 minutes of logical thought. Taking a statistics class or two helps also.
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