Vern Humphrey
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I just knew you were going to make another accusation with no proof. Where's your proof that their analysis of Marshall and Sanow is a "personal attack in lieu of substantive debate?"
understanding the .357 Magnum
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I just knew you were going to make another accusation with no proof. Where's your proof that their analysis of Marshall and Sanow is a "personal attack in lieu of substantive debate?"
.38 Special
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When the first line of a "research paper" reads "Evan Marshall has been a bad joke to almost every technically trained person ever since his earliest articles on his 'data base' were published" you don't need an advanced degree to figure out the score.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Amen.
Even if their data were valid (and people they cite as sources deny giving them data), the "statistical analysis" is laughable.
Gryffydd
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This ought get good...I'm grabbing some popcorn.
Vern Humphrey
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Ah, the opening line. Did you read farther?
.38 Special
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I'm not going to get into it again. The bottom line is that Sanow and Marshall's work is probably flawed. It's also the best thing we've got so far. The detractors seem to be primarily made up of little Facklers who automatically dismiss anything that might discredit the ".45 ball is magic" school of thought. And their argument is 90% ad hom with just a enough "fact-like" observations to keep folks from simply walking away.
That all stopped being interesting to me a long time ago. It's just a shame that the mere mention of Marshall and Sanow is enough to derail a thread.
.38 Special
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Yeah, we're done, Vern. I've never gotten anywhere with the folks who think character assassination is a good substitute for research and critical thinking, and I doubt it would be any different this time.
Vern Humphrey
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You keep slinging that accusation of "character assassination" around with no proof.
Have you realized that you're doing what you accuse others of doing?
.38 Special
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Did you notice the part about "Evan Marshall is a bad joke"? Do you even know what "character assassination" is?
FLORIDA KEVIN
Member
I have both .357 and a .45 auto !i don't feel under gunned with either ! For your purposes maybe a ruger redhawk in .45 colt would be best ! you can load defensive ammo for home or ruger only loads for hunting and large angry critter control ! as for taking a revolver apart !! there are lots springy flying out and getting lost parts inside ! Be careful ! Kevin
MCgunner
Member
I've had college statistics, biologist, not a statistician. I think their work, while not the end all, is good for .357. There's a huge data base there. The calibers to look for error are the ones with small data bases. Of course, being a master statistician, you know that the larger the data base, the smaller the variance caused by "degrees of freedom" (n-1).
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I pick up scrap 14 ga hot rolled at work to make targets from. I weld a piece of scrap angle or pipe on each side of the rectangle I shape from the scrap sheet so they can be driven into the ground. a .45acp 230 gr fmj from a Colt 1911 puts a bigger dent in the steel than a .357 mag 125gr semi-jacket sp from a 6" revolver. this is at a fairly close range about 50'. doesn't really tell us much I suppose.
I shoot .380acp, 9mm Mak, 9mm Para, .357 mag (ruger gp100 4" a good woods bumming gun) Colt 1911, S&W 625 5" into that steel and they all leave a ding.
a hot 147gr 9mmPara really 'whacks' from my Marlin Camp 9. so does a hot 185gr or 200 gr from my .45acp Camp.
I don't wish to be in the path of any of 'em.
I shoot .380acp, 9mm Mak, 9mm Para, .357 mag (ruger gp100 4" a good woods bumming gun) Colt 1911, S&W 625 5" into that steel and they all leave a ding.
a hot 147gr 9mmPara really 'whacks' from my Marlin Camp 9. so does a hot 185gr or 200 gr from my .45acp Camp.
I don't wish to be in the path of any of 'em.
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earlthegoat2
Member
I have had a little experience with pure statistics and a little actuarial science to boot. From that end I can say that statistics on subjective events such as shootings and gunfights rarely lead to any conclusions.
Long story short a 22 will a end a fight as sure as a 357 if certian variables are right on both ends. A 357 will have a heck of a lot less margin of error though and I dont think you need statistics to at the very least circumstantially prove that.
Same thing with the 45.
They both kill just as well. That is the long and short it. Pick your poison and hit your target then worry about what the hardware will do.
Long story short a 22 will a end a fight as sure as a 357 if certian variables are right on both ends. A 357 will have a heck of a lot less margin of error though and I dont think you need statistics to at the very least circumstantially prove that.
Same thing with the 45.
They both kill just as well. That is the long and short it. Pick your poison and hit your target then worry about what the hardware will do.
Gryffydd
Member
The fact that they got lucky and scored a round with good stopping power as having good stopping power doesn't make their work statistically sound as a whole. The bottom line is that their selection criteria and analysis basically result in a set of data that is simply not connected with the real world anymore.
I haven't seen that to be the case.
Flawed statistics are worse than useless. It's better to not have them than to have them when they don't reflect reality.
I've never particularly understood the need for personal attacks in this context. There are so many problems with their data and methods it's superfluous and distracting. That said, just because someone also makes a personal attack doesn't mean everything else they have to say is wrong. Marshall's work really is a joke to statisticians.
MCgunner
Member
For Gryffydd
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701266.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf
Marlin 45 carbine, your tests prove what I could have told you, .45 ACP 230 has more momentum than 125 .357 magnum. So what? Wounding is more complicated than simple momentum. Pins and pepper poppers aren't made of flesh.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701266.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf
Marlin 45 carbine, your tests prove what I could have told you, .45 ACP 230 has more momentum than 125 .357 magnum. So what? Wounding is more complicated than simple momentum. Pins and pepper poppers aren't made of flesh.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Yeah -- it's what Marshall's defenders do whenever someone is critical of his "study."
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Having had much experience with both...I can offer tuppence worth.
In certain loadings, the .357 is a little more effective as an antipersonnel round than the .45 ACP. The price you pay is increased recoil and blast. For most of us...Mickulek and McGivern notwithstanding...the double-action revolver is a bit more demanding for defensive use compared to an autopistol...but that's not an insurmountable problem. Practice is the key.
The .357 is a much more versatile cartridge. It can be loaded down to powderpuff levels for casual practice...or up to something that mimics a small thermonuclear device, with the ability to penetrate a good-sized animal lengthwise...without having to alter the gun to accomodate.
It's easier to teach a newcomer to effectively and safely use a double-action revolver...and the ability to use downloaded ammo is a plus for the task.
Although I'm a proponent of the .45 Auto cartridge in general and the 1911 platform in particular...if I had to choose one over the other to do me for come what may until I separate from this mortal coil...it would be a medium framed, 4-inch, DA .357 revolver, hands down.
In certain loadings, the .357 is a little more effective as an antipersonnel round than the .45 ACP. The price you pay is increased recoil and blast. For most of us...Mickulek and McGivern notwithstanding...the double-action revolver is a bit more demanding for defensive use compared to an autopistol...but that's not an insurmountable problem. Practice is the key.
The .357 is a much more versatile cartridge. It can be loaded down to powderpuff levels for casual practice...or up to something that mimics a small thermonuclear device, with the ability to penetrate a good-sized animal lengthwise...without having to alter the gun to accomodate.
It's easier to teach a newcomer to effectively and safely use a double-action revolver...and the ability to use downloaded ammo is a plus for the task.
Although I'm a proponent of the .45 Auto cartridge in general and the 1911 platform in particular...if I had to choose one over the other to do me for come what may until I separate from this mortal coil...it would be a medium framed, 4-inch, DA .357 revolver, hands down.
Vern Humphrey
Member
In terms of versatility, the revolver/.357 is the winner, hands down. In terms of utility for a single purpose, self defense, the M1911 and the .45 ACP get my vote. I've carried both in combat (although only used the .357) and if called up today, I'd choose an M1911 if I had the choice.
James T Thomas
Member
what we have here
The "mythical" power reputation developed after the hunting rounds had been in existence for a long time. This was an outdoorsman development originaly.
For meat eating animals, I would go with something heavier than 180 grain projectiles. Regardless of their velocity.
The "myth" developed with the lighter weight, increased velocity of expanding ammunition.
The police admistration liked the PC that it still was a 38, and that if expansion occured, the round lost much of the penetration that the hunting rounds had. They approved, and "sold" it to the troops.
And now in the techno age, we have more reliable expanding ammo than in days past.
Caveat: Without expansion, remember you are shooting a 38. Higher velocity albeit.
The "mythical" power reputation developed after the hunting rounds had been in existence for a long time. This was an outdoorsman development originaly.
For meat eating animals, I would go with something heavier than 180 grain projectiles. Regardless of their velocity.
The "myth" developed with the lighter weight, increased velocity of expanding ammunition.
The police admistration liked the PC that it still was a 38, and that if expansion occured, the round lost much of the penetration that the hunting rounds had. They approved, and "sold" it to the troops.
And now in the techno age, we have more reliable expanding ammo than in days past.
Caveat: Without expansion, remember you are shooting a 38. Higher velocity albeit.
MCgunner
Member
I don't think expansion is necessary or always desirable in the .357 magnum, for hunting. I shoot a 165 grain as cast gas checked SWC for hunting. It does a fantastic job on hogs and deer to 50 yards from a revolver and 100 yards from a rifle.
That brings up rifles. The .45ACP gets little or nothing from the longer barrel of a rifle. The .357 turns into a rifle caliber in a rifle, at least to 100 yards.
In no way is the .45 ACP as capable as a hunting or outdoor round and the .357 is as capable as a self defense round. So, if I had to be without one or the other, I'd give up the .45ACP. I don't NEED to shoot momentum games like pins or pepper poppers. That's about all the .45 can do any better. I can carry the .357 and it's little brother, the .38 (and do) for self defense and I can use it to kill things in the field, in handgun or rifle. To me, my favorite centerfire handgun caliber has always been the .38/.357 and that hasn't changed.
That brings up rifles. The .45ACP gets little or nothing from the longer barrel of a rifle. The .357 turns into a rifle caliber in a rifle, at least to 100 yards.
In no way is the .45 ACP as capable as a hunting or outdoor round and the .357 is as capable as a self defense round. So, if I had to be without one or the other, I'd give up the .45ACP. I don't NEED to shoot momentum games like pins or pepper poppers. That's about all the .45 can do any better. I can carry the .357 and it's little brother, the .38 (and do) for self defense and I can use it to kill things in the field, in handgun or rifle. To me, my favorite centerfire handgun caliber has always been the .38/.357 and that hasn't changed.
Hear, hear, MC!
One more thing to add -- unlike the .44 Mag, the .357 is compatible with a lower-powered round that actually exists.
(I like the .44, but "you can shoot .44 Specials in it!" is about the silliest thing I've heard as a reason to buy one.)
Yesterday, I took my wife plinking so she could get practice with DA revolver shooting. I loaded up some really light .38 Specials so she could concentrate on the mechanics of DA trigger pull instead of sweating the recoil of heavy SD rounds.
She had a good time, improved her shooting, and I played around with a lever gun with those same rounds in it. Unadulterated fun, no recoil and cheap to reload. She shot it a few times when she was done with the revolvers, and is all set to do it some more!
The same gun will shoot hunting loads at respectable levergun velocities, as you said, no problem. Next day, it turns back into a fun toy and practice gun.
One more thing to add -- unlike the .44 Mag, the .357 is compatible with a lower-powered round that actually exists.
(I like the .44, but "you can shoot .44 Specials in it!" is about the silliest thing I've heard as a reason to buy one.)Yesterday, I took my wife plinking so she could get practice with DA revolver shooting. I loaded up some really light .38 Specials so she could concentrate on the mechanics of DA trigger pull instead of sweating the recoil of heavy SD rounds.
She had a good time, improved her shooting, and I played around with a lever gun with those same rounds in it. Unadulterated fun, no recoil and cheap to reload. She shot it a few times when she was done with the revolvers, and is all set to do it some more!
The same gun will shoot hunting loads at respectable levergun velocities, as you said, no problem. Next day, it turns back into a fun toy and practice gun.
Poprivit
Member
I have a Colt Python, a Ruger Super Blackhawk, and a S&W 500 (357,44, 500) I've shot a LOT of hogs, some bear and been to Africa four times. (one Cape Buffalo, one elephant, one stink bull giraffe and a whole bag of plains game - photos available - I write for African Hunter Magazine).
For North American dangerous game smaller than Brown Bear, use the .44. It won't bust your wrist, even with 300-gr bullets. Get used to it - shoot it a bunch, 250-350 rounds for starters. For Brown Bear,I shoot Ballistic Supply 600-gr. hardened lead bullets in my S&W 500 Mag. I took the giraffe with the 500; 18'6" tall, 2400 lb. +or-.
Hogs go down easy with proper bullet placement, so a 357 or 44 is fine. If you need to shoot through the shoulder plate, go with the 44. I bounced a 300 Win Magnum 180-gr. off a boar's skull on a frontal shot. Bad angle, the bullet just spun off.
For North American dangerous game smaller than Brown Bear, use the .44. It won't bust your wrist, even with 300-gr bullets. Get used to it - shoot it a bunch, 250-350 rounds for starters. For Brown Bear,I shoot Ballistic Supply 600-gr. hardened lead bullets in my S&W 500 Mag. I took the giraffe with the 500; 18'6" tall, 2400 lb. +or-.
Hogs go down easy with proper bullet placement, so a 357 or 44 is fine. If you need to shoot through the shoulder plate, go with the 44. I bounced a 300 Win Magnum 180-gr. off a boar's skull on a frontal shot. Bad angle, the bullet just spun off.
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Dogbite
Member
As an aside -
Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.
Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.
This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.
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One of my relatives fell down in a hog pen, and a large hog attacked her, biting her fiercely on the hand. It was an ugly wound.
Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.
Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.
This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.
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One of my relatives fell down in a hog pen, and a large hog attacked her, biting her fiercely on the hand. It was an ugly wound.
I suspect it comes from the hype that emerged in the late 30s and during the War. There were quite a few articles back then in the popular magazines, relating stories of how the mighty .357 stopped a Grizzly in its tracks, went right through 12 Japanese soldiers, etc.
Yes.
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