understanding the .357 Magnum

[SHusky57]

This is NOT, I repeat, NOT intended to be a .357 mag vs 45 acp thread.

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power? .45 has a bigger diameter, and with 230 grains has quite a bit more weight than the 125-158 .357 range, but I do know that that .357 has an extra 400-500 fps going for it.

Is the .357 magnum's power over-rated? Is it on par with the 45? Are both grossly over-rated (I mean c'mon, we are talking pistols here)? Is .357 magnum just fine against all mean, eat your face off animals south of Canada (Alaskan Grizzlies don't count)?

My Glock 21 can have 13 rounds of .45 ACP.... But there really is something to the balance and aesthetics of a good .357 revolver.

I find myself mostly carrying a S&W 442 in these hot summer months, and I'm thinking about putting a .357 big brother in the nightstand. I may just load it with the same 125 gr +P 38s that I put in my 442, but comparing 38 +p to 357 mag makes it look like a pea-shooter (half the energy and velocity with the same weight).

So for those 357 fanatics out there, pour your brains out for me and let me pick them .

I was thinking about getting a S&W 625 in 45 ACP to keep logistics simple, but with the ammo shortage it seems that having an alternate caliber could be beneficial. All they had on the shelves at academy today for defensive ammo was Speer Gold Dot in 38 +P.... which thankfully I was able to make use of due to the SW 442.

So, in comparison to other calibers what are the strengths of 357 mag compared to other calibers, especially against big meat-eating animals. Against a 300-400 lbs hog, are 45 ACP and .357 mag equally suited or does the .357 have an advantage.... and I know what you are thinking - just get a .44 MAG. Well I just might sir! But it seems a little over-kill for home protection, and I crave versatility.

 

[velojym]

Between the big'n'slow and small'n'fast bullets, I believe it's just two roads leading to the same place (bad guy on floor). We have those two calibers at home, and I don't feel undergunned with either.

I am a bit more accurate with the revolver, though I do well enough with my autos. Always needing more practice, though.

 

[SHusky57]

I forgot to add, do you need to detail strip a revolver to clean it ever? Anyone that can follow Lego instructions can detail strip a Glock - but I wouldn't know where to begin with a revolver, or if I should just take it to a smith every 5 years to get cleaned.

 

[SaxonPig]

45 vs 357 will never end.

Either will kill a man.

Mainly you are choosing the platform rather than the caliber. If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

IMO (for what it's worth) I have always been bothered by the 45's lack of velocity. I like my handgun bullets to have a chance of expansion and I do not trust any 45 ACP load to do that. Even the 185 JHPs do not expand well or reliably. The 357's vastly superior velocity makes the bullet perform better on target. If choosing a handgun based on power I go with the 357 because no matter the 45 looks like on paper, if it doesn't expand it is less effective.

Fact is, if I were to pack a 1911 it would be a 38 Super for the reasons cited above. My Super load is a 115 JHP at a measured 1425 FPS. I can load 10 rounds in a single stack gun. I am simply not a big fan of the 45 ACP.

I have only seen one man actually get shot and it was with a 45 ACP using 230 grain loads. Guy took 3 solid hits to the chest and ran 50 yards before being dropped by a 4th hit in the kidney. I came away from that experience doubting all the stories I had heard of the 45's tremendous stopping power.

 

[saturno_v]

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power? .45 has a bigger diameter, and with 230 grains has quite a bit more weight than the 125-158 .357 range, but I do know that that .357 has an extra 400-500 fps going for it.

You answered to that question yourself....much more energy and better SD, even with a lighter bullet (158-200 gr. range) will result in higher penetration capability...against a regular individual you would probably not notice the difference but the 357 shines when you take in consideration light barriers, heavy clothing, etc...

It is similar to the comparison between the 40 and the 45, albeit the difference is not as dramatic.

 

[buck460XVR]

45 vs 357 will never end.

Either will kill a man.

Mainly you are choosing the platform rather than the caliber. If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

I agree......on two legged varmits. The longer range and larger size four legged critters is where the .357 widens the gap.

.....but then again, I like wheelguns.

 

[Guillermo]

as Saturno said it is about energy and velocity.

Speer Gold Dot
has 230 grain 45ACP that has a muzzle velocity of 890 and a muzzle energy of 404 ft/lbs of energy

Speer also has a 158 grain 357 magnum that has a muzzle velocity of 1235 and muzzle energy of 535 ft/lbs of energy

 

[Oro]

do you need to detail strip a revolver to clean it ever?

No. You can use a revolver a lifetime and not need to open it up. In fact, unless you have detailed instructions and some basic competency with machinery, I would encourage the average owner to not even attempt to go poking inside unless something is broken and they know what they are doing.

Ok, back on track - I definitely love the .357 - but I also have quite a few .45s because of the 1911 platform - it's just so compelling. But for serious situations, I think a .357 always has an edge for the reasons mentioned.

If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

Exactly. The 1911 is just a wonderful platform, and the .45 the natural choice in it that optimizes the platform. If the .45acp round were the end-all cartridge, then most people would choose revolvers chambered in .44 Special, the cartridge most like the .45acp (save for .45AR, of course). In a revolver, the .357 magnum tends to maximize the platform - .44magnum is just often too much. This is the point that 10mm fans usually jump in - a .357-like round in an autoloader.

I keep a 1911 style .45 and a .357 in my nightstand. But when I need to carry a gun in the mountains or woods - my priority is to always take a .357 unless in grizzly habitat, and then upgun even beyond that. Sometimes I will take a .45 for the nostalgia and because I do love the 1911, but I always feel better with a .357 at least.

 

[DBR]

"So, in comparison to other calibers what are the strengths of 357 mag compared to other calibers, especially against big meat-eating animals. Against a 300-400 lbs hog"

I have shot a 200# Russian Boar with a 4" 357 using 158gr Federal HP ammo. Range was about 30yds. Four rounds hit in the chest area and were recovered fully expanded. The Boar was not impressed until I put the 5th shot under his ear. I know (now), bad choice of ammo (should have used 180gr hardcast flat point) and caliber (should have used 44 Mag with 300gr hardcast flat point).

I would not consider using ANY normal caliber handgun against a dangerous two legged or four legged critter unless I could guarantee CNS shot placement (not likely) or had absolutely no other options.

I don't mean I think they can't work. Heck, you can kill most animals with a 22lr if things are just right. I just like better odds.

These days I prefer 12ga slugs.

 

[.38 Special]

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power?

Probably the work of Marshall and Sanow. Their "one shot stop" statistics place the .357/125 JHP at the very top of the heap.

 

[DBR]

There is another theory floating around that I think has some merit.

The 125gr Federal 357 HP ammo that was used when M&S got their info was a very hot load running 1400-1500 FPS from a typical 4" revolver. The other 125gr loads were near this intensity.

A significant portion of "one shot stops" are as much psychological as physical. The muzzle blast from the round is in the 165+DB range from the shooters position and could be expected to be considerably louder from the shootee's position. This amount of noise is close to stun grenade intensity and could account for part of the rounds effectiveness. At least at short ranges where most of their shootings happened.

 

[saturno_v]

Speer also has a 158 grain 357 magnum that has a muzzle velocity of 1235 and muzzle energy of 535 ft/lbs of energy

Guillermo

Adding to what you said, that 357 158 gr. load you mentioned is not even a full spec one....a full SAAMI spec 357 load in 158 gr. deliver ~700 ft/lb of muzzle energy or more...

 

[saturno_v]

I have shot a 200# Russian Boar with a 4" 357 using 158gr Federal HP ammo. Range was about 30yds. Four rounds hit in the chest area and were recovered fully expanded. The Boar was not impressed until I put the 5th shot under his ear. I know (now), bad choice of ammo (should have used 180gr hardcast flat point) and caliber (should have used 44 Mag with 300gr hardcast flat point).

DBR

What kind of ammo were you using?? Defensive 357 loads nowdays are way watered down compared to full spec....and yes Hollow Point are not the best choice for hunting...

I heard of people, even here on THR, using 357 (revolver or carbine) against boar and they were very happy with the results

 

[earlthegoat2]

temporary wound cavity and permanent wound channel

both are bigger with the 357 125gr@1400fps compared to the 45 ACP 230gr@850fps

 

[The_Seventh_Sign]

Ok the difference

In Indiana you can hunt deer with a .357 Magnum.

In Indiana the deer may not be hunted with a 45 auto.

Both would leave the perp just as dead, just one is not legal to hunt with.
Go figure as to why.

Personally i tried shooting with a 357 in the left hand and the 45 auto in the otther at one target.
Yes people look at you oddly but it was more fun to shoot that way once and a while to make you feel like a movie star.
The target didn't stand a chance, it was a pepper patterned shot up deal.
Bang with the sited in left then bang with the sited in right back and forth until you need a new mag and more rounds.

If your feeling really brave use two targets space them out and try to aim at them at the same time and test your self on how well you can shoot either eye either hand. both in the right hand said i need more practice my left hand was laughing at my right with the 357 i shot better.

TSS

 

[MagnumWill]

Well, I'd have to agree with everyone that either one wouldn't be pleasant. I might be a little off on this, but I believe (or i've heard) that Elmer Keith and some other guys developed the .357 magnum to one-up the .38 Super Automatic, since they were both "intended" to pierce gangster's cars in the '30s and '40s (or so i've heard).

You'll have to explain what you mean by "over-rated". Over-rated as in over-hyped (Man! it was so loud and the thing almost flew out of my hand, etc) or over-rated specwise(500 ft.lb. but advertised as 600 ft.lb.). Personally, I think neither. Go shoot one for yourself- they're nothing to joke about, but it's still a typical pistol round. And 700 ft.lb. can be easily acheived with it- Pick up a box of Buffalo Bore ammo for it out of Cabelas- Like someone said prior, they're loaded to maximum SAAMI.

And cleaning a wheelgun isn't hard- but then again, I have every tool I could possibly need.

 

[suemarkp]

For targets larger than people size, the 357 has advantages over 45 ACP because the 45 ACP doesn't take well to heavy bullets (heavy for caliber -- 250gr and up). If you're thinking of a S&W 625, things get more complicated. Because its a revolver, you can seat the bullet long and up the powder a bit. This would best be done in 45AR brass instead of 45 ACP so you don't mix them up. A 45 Colt -vs- 357 Mag would be a closer race, even if the 45 wasn't +P+.

I have an old Handloader article about hopping up the 45 Auto Rim. They were getting 250gr bullets to a bit over 1000 fps and staying within 45 ACP pressures. Seating depth was shallow... A 625 should be able to take 45 ACP pressures all day, and those are about 3000 PSI higher than 45 Colt. I wouldn't go much above this though, as the 625 isn't intended to be a magnum platform.

 

[DBR]

saturno v:

As I said, I was using full power Federal 158gr HP ammo. This was a while back 1995 I think. The bullets couldn't get through the heavy gristle plates over the boar's ribs. They didn't get into anything meaningful.

I think the 357 with hot 180gr hardcast flatnose loads would penetrate enough if you put them in the right spot. Boars can be dangerous and if I were to hunt one again I would want at least a 30 caliber rifle or a shotgun with hard Brenekke slugs.

 

[BCRider]

For a defensive round I haven't seen anything about the shock and noise. On that front the .357 wins hands down for greater recoil shock, much more noise and typically a big fireball. Especially on shorter barrels.

So if you're looking at that point there's a lot to be said for the more pleasant manners of a .45ACP if things are in a serious stew.

And I'm glad to see someone pull out the 625 option that blends the revolver and the .45 just to cloud the picture

 

[pps]

I like the option of using my .357 for hunting. 185gr LBT over 15.8gr of h110 for 1200 ft/sec of bone smackin' goodness and flat trajectory. Pick your shots carefully. The last 200# sow I took went down with one broadside shot from 50 yards.

Don't know if I could have made that shot with the 45, but I've not practiced at that distance with the .45 either.

 

[C-grunt]

I think the .357 got its reputation because of the early hollow points used. Many wouldnt expand unless they had a lot of velocity and others that did expand didnt penetrate well because they were to light. I think the .357 was able to launch a bullet heavy enough to penetrate well at a velocity that help with expansion.

I personally believe that if they had modern hollowpoints back when they first came out, the .357 wouldnt have the reputation it has today because the .38 would have been a very effective round in a full size revolver.

 

[StrawHat]

Probably the work of Marshall and Sanow. Their "one shot stop" statistics place the .357/125 JHP at the very top of the heap.

M&S cherry picked their data, using only incidents involving one shot.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I have both a big heavy full size 1911 with big slow 230 grainers in it and a big heavy SA ruger loaded 158 grain leverevolution rounds within reach of my pillow. what's not to love?

If I have to go into home defense mode with pistols I think I have it covered.

 

[SHusky57]

I have both a big heavy full size 1911 with big slow 230 grainers in it and a big heavy SA ruger loaded 158 grain leverevolution rounds within reach of my pillow. what's not to love?

Some of us like to keep it simple.... complexity means more room for kuff-ups, and not only do you have 2 guns to pick from, but they both operate completely differently.

Part of me is wondering if 45 Long Colt will be a better cartridge for what I want.... or maybe even 454 casull, but just shoot 45 LC out of it. I don't want to be hog food, but not everyone can carry a shotgun around everytime they are out in the woods.

Also, does 357 perform best out of a 6" barrel? I've heard 4" isn't enough for some reason or other from some gunshop commando worker..... I know it will perform better, but is 6" optimal for a 357 revolver?

 

[Madcap_Magician]

45 vs 357 will never end.

Either will kill a man.

Mainly you are choosing the platform rather than the caliber. If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

IMO (for what it's worth) I have always been bothered by the 45's lack of velocity. I like my handgun bullets to have a chance of expansion and I do not trust any 45 ACP load to do that. Even the 185 JHPs do not expand well or reliably. The 357's vastly superior velocity makes the bullet perform better on target. If choosing a handgun based on power I go with the 357 because no matter the 45 looks like on paper, if it doesn't expand it is less effective.

Fact is, if I were to pack a 1911 it would be a 38 Super for the reasons cited above. My Super load is a 115 JHP at a measured 1425 FPS. I can load 10 rounds in a single stack gun. I am simply not a big fan of the 45 ACP.

I have only seen one man actually get shot and it was with a 45 ACP using 230 grain loads. Guy took 3 solid hits to the chest and ran 50 yards before being dropped by a 4th hit in the kidney. I came away from that experience doubting all the stories I had heard of the 45's tremendous stopping power.

I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.