understanding the .357 Magnum

[wvshooter]

A quick look at reloading data shows quite a few 357 work ups in the 1300 to 1500 fps range. Some even reach 1800 fps. 1800 is more than twice the velocity of the typical 45acp. round. It makes a difference with all larger animals but especially the animals you mention.

 

[meef]

Dogbite:

One of my relatives fell down in a hog pen, and a large hog attacked her, biting her fiercely on the hand. It was an ugly wound.

Well then, she could join THR and her user name could be Hogbite.

 

[ijosef]

I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.

I saw that video in one of my training classes for work. The entire thing was captured on the dashboard cam of the patrol car. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the fat slob of a perpetrator was using a .25 auto (like a Raven or Lorcin saturday night special), although that's not really the point. I don't think anyone is going to argue that a .357 magnum isn't a better fight stopper than a .22LR or a .25ACP. This story is just proof that all firearms, regardless of size/caliber/power, can easily kill, and that users need to respect how dangerous they can be.

All other things being equal, one is more likely to survive a hit with a .25ACP than a .357magnum, but both can kill you equally dead.

 

[ArmedBear]

Yeah, the moral of the story is that any gun can kill you, so don't get shot.

It's got little to do with relative effectiveness of different rounds, on average.

 

[MR.G]

Years ago, when I was young, we would shoot our handguns in some remote fields. Our targets were old vehicles, steel drums, logs, and anything else that looked like a good target. I remember being able to dig .45 bullets out of logs with my knife. It would have taken a chain saw to find the .357 rounds.380 rounds would bounce off steel drums and some doors, where the .357 would blow right through them. Probably doesn't mean that much in stopping power, but the .357 penrtrated everything better.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

The .357 is a reloaders dream and what I cut my reloading teeth on 30 years ago. Load it up as a .38 Special lead wadcutter target round over a few grains of Bullseye or a full SAAMI spec load with jacketed HP over as much H110 as you can stuff in the case....not to mention everything in between with dozens of powders and bullets. It's possible (even easy) to work up light target loads that shoot to the same POA as the full power loads.

If the gun you're buying is one you're going to shoot, as opposed to simply parking it in the nightstand, the .357 can be your ticket to a wide variety of shooting fun. On top of this, a good .357 will, out of the box, deliver accuracy that the 1911 platform will have to work very hard to equal.
Bob

 

[Marvin KNox]

I prefer a revolver over an auto for a bunch of reasons. I carry the .357 because I can get more rounds in a slimmer lighter revolver package for carry purposes.

I know that I could pack as many rounds in a .45 revolver. But it would be (for me at least) too large for carry in the style I prefer.

I carry a slightly reduced speed load (DPX 125gr.) because it is more manageable and it penetrates exactly the depth I want with a great mushroom. I believe that the paper energy of the hot loads and attendent temporary wound channels mean next to nothing once you have a round that will do the job consistently to 12" or so.

Getting to what the thread is really about, I believe that the wonderful reputation of the super hot .357's was earned because they were being compared to other slower calibers in the days of older style bullets. Those days are gone IMO.

With modern bullets, one can get the proper depth and mushroom by picking a round tailored to your particular speed based on recoil manageability etc. - be it in .45 or .357 magnum. If you fail to pick a good projectile for your needs, it will fail to perform as desired and perhaps be inadequate. That is true whether we are talking about slow .45s or fast .45s. That is true whether we are talking about slow .357's or fast .357's (be they magnum or not).

That being the case (IMO) I would much prefer the nicely expanded .45 wound chanel over the nicely expanded .357 caliber wound chanel (both to adequate depth of course). That's not to say that both are not good rounds for self defense.

But because of the before mentioned reasons (recoil, number of rounds, light weight and small size in a carry revolver etc.) I go with the .357 magnum. IMO the .45 is the better self defense round if there are no such consideration necessary.(or if auto vs. revolver isn't a factor).

Fatter permenent wound chanel to a little more than adequate depth is always superior to a narrower wound chanel (regardless of temporary wound chanels or "paper" energy).

I also believe that hoping for "one shot stops" is wishful thinking and not realistic. Nor do I believe that anyone ever shot with assorted handguns, autopsied and cataloged the results on hundreds of goats in any country anywhere in the world. Utter nonsense IMO.

 

[SHusky57]

As an aside -


Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.


Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.


This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.

Went to a gunshop the other day and will never go back. I won't go on about how rude the salesperson was (my friend was looking for a deer rifle), and I wanted some 30-30 and handgun ammo. He asked me what I wanted in handgun ammo and I told him wilderness protection ammo.... cougars, mountain lions, bears, pigs and he looked at me like I was retarded. We don't have bears in Oklahoma, but I just wanted some to have some. Just like how the gun shop I was at sells AR-15s and Barrett 50 cals to people who want them but in reality probably will never use them to defeat an army of invading communists....

Anyway, after telling me pigs don't attack people (which is the opposite of what I have heard from a lot of hog hunters.... maybe he thought I was talking about Winnie-the-Pooh piglet and not a 350 lbs boar).... he recommened some 125 gr hollow points for my 357 magnum. From everything I've read, Softpoint/hard-cast lead is the way to go, and probably 158 or 180 grain for 357 magnum. I was like, "will these even penetrate far enough to stop a hog?" and he kind of got irritated, well, more than he already was. Judging from his gut, I guess he doesn't hike a lot but probably just sits in a treestand all season eating beef jerky.

He just continued to be rude and treated me like an idiot for wanting some good "hiking ammo".... and I don't really have the funds for a 44 mag or 500 S&W right now if I already have a gun that can do the job with the right ammo, it's more realistic for me to put my money into ammo. . I ended up leaving the store. Now I know why they are the only gunshop with fully stocked ammo shelves in the state.

So anyways, a few questions.
Between 45 ACP and 357 Magnum, which is the better for 4 legged critters? What is the best load-out for 4 legged critters? I am kind of wanting to order some buffalo bore 180 gr I think it was 357 magnum for wilderness protection.... and maybe Speer 125 gr 38 +p for home protection (it's what I used in my SW 442).

Is it possible to CCW a service 4" revolver.... or should I just stick with my J-frame?

I'm wanting one more gun.... looked at ARs, but they don't "do it" for me. Thinking about a mossberg shotgun, but it still doesn't "do it" for me. When I see a GP100 or a SW629PD... I start to get excited. But before I drop a lot of money on a revolver, I want to make sure 357 is "enough gun" for angry 4 legged critters.

(I have a 4" 357 I inherited, but I wouldn't mind getting a 6" 357 or maybe a 4" 44 mag or something.... I really want a good wilderness protection handgun. I know a shotgun is better, but it's very hard to be inconspicuous carrying a 12 gauge around, not to mention they are heavy and more likely to get left behind. Better to always be within arm's reach than sitting in the truck).

 

[.38 Special]

IMO the Buffalo Bore 180 is the best .357 load for the purposes you are considering.

I've never heard of a wild boar attacking an adult unprovoked in the U.S., but what I haven't heard of is a lot. I sure as hell have heard of adults attacking adults unprovoked in the U.S., and I figure the Buffalo Bore load would manage that as well.

I would happily use hot loaded .45 Auto Rim with the heaviest cast bullet it can manage, as a "hiking load". I would not be as happy with the typical defensive .45 Auto loads in the same role. check out the ".45 Auto/bear attack" thread for an example of why, not that I think any handgun is ideal in that particular situation...

 

[sw282]

I met an old man who gave first hand knowledge of penetration of a handgun and proved beyond a doubt that velocity has alot to do with penetration. He came into the gunshop the other day with a 30Mauser C96. He said he had gotten it in Germany during WWll. Talking we made mention of the 45 and its mystical death ray performance. He said it was a good round but his Mauser was superior in some areas. He kinda winked and grinned and went on to say the little Mauser round could penetrate both sides of a German helmet with the head in it. A45 could not do that

 

[AStone]

This is NOT, I repeat, NOT intended to be a .357 mag vs 45 acp thread.

The best laid schemes o' mice an' men.

I find myself mostly carrying a S&W 442 in these hot summer months,
and I'm thinking about putting a .357 big brother in the nightstand.

642 in my OWB; mod 65 on my night stand.

Admittedly, the 65 is not the finest .357m specimen.
It won't necessarily eat a steady diet of hot rnds,
yet it does fine with cooler ones.

I'll replace it eventually with an L-frame, maybe a 627.

Looking at Blackhawks, also.

But I understand the draw.

Just something about a wheel in .357m.

 

[Frank4711]

I own both.....357 hands down my favorite....great reading

 

[elktrout]

Years ago, in my law enforcement days, the FBI police reports of field shootings across the nation were the best source for reliable information about shootings involving the cops. The .357 quickly established itself as the best one shot stopper when the various 125 grain hollow points were used. You must remember, though, that the average range of a police fire fight (at that time, and likely still) was less than 10 feet - almost point blank. The soft, exposed lead hollow points expanded violently at that range when fired from a .357 full load.

Obviously, all kinds of numeric data have been and continue to be offered that support one versus the other. If you want to substantiate your opinion, you can find enough data of some type to do so.

I carried and loved my .357 (a 4 inch Colt Trooper). I also loved my Colt Commander 45acp, although my department would not let me carry it.

One important factor in the debate that warrants careful consideration is that of bullet expansion. If, for some reason, the .357 bullets do not expand, they exponentially lose their stopping power. Some hollow points, depending on target resistance, collapse on impact or clog with clothing fragments and simply plow through the target.

It really boils down to what you personally have confidence will do the job. The debate will continue for decades.

 

[sniper5]

Regarding pigs, there are some reported incidents of pigs chasing picnickers onto picnic tables at Henry Coe park in the Bay Area and keeping them there until rangers got there to scare them away. Now how much of this was provoked by the tourists via feeding or trying to infringe on territory and how much is real aggression vs. imaginary aggression in the minds of the tourists I don't know.

 

[SHusky57]

Regarding pigs, there are some reported incidents of pigs chasing picnickers onto picnic tables at Henry Coe park in the Bay Area and keeping them there until rangers got there to scare them away. Now how much of this was provoked by the tourists via feeding or trying to infringe on territory and how much is real aggression vs. imaginary aggression in the minds of the tourists I don't know.

Is stomping around brush with a 30-30 going to be perceived by pigs as aggressive?

and I'm guessing 125 gr HP is the way to go in 357 for personal protection.... any reason to go with the heavier stuff (158 gr)? If goblins are lightly armored (like thick leather coats) is the 125 or 158 gr going to be a better chocie?

I'll get the buffalo bore for critters.

As for the pistol itself, is GP100 6" a good way to go? What are the better 6-shot Smith and Wesson models out there (I don't know much about them). Are those fiber optic front sight thingies on some of the S&Ws durable?

 

[Ben Shepherd]

SHusky57- see your PM's.

 

[Marvin KNox]

sw 282



Regarding the smaller bore Mauser rifle vs. the .45 pistol - it's a matter of apples and oranges of course.

If shooting through chunks of metal and exiting the other side is your goal, the Mauser may, indeed, be a better choice than the .45.

Lots of variables here, though. A slow .45 solid is likely to do a better job at that task than a fast hollow point Mauser bullet. The reverse is also true.

But shooting through helmets isn't what most people want in a self defense round is it? A bullet that can do that is not a good self defense bullet is it?

It does bring up the point of penetration vs. expansion being being more important with the shooting of certain animals though. A mister Bell, a famous English hunter of elephant from yesteryear, used a 7mm Mauser. He hunted elephant before they, by and large, because very skiddish in the presence of men. He usually shot them from up close and at a perfect angle and used solids to be sure he reached the vitals from that angle. It did the job on hundreds of elephants for sure. But it certainly never stopped a charging elephant dead in it's tracks.

Nor would it likely do so on a charging man for our own self defense purposes. Probably not on a charging hog either.

 

[SaxonPig]

It always comes down a matter of personal preference. I love my 1911s and carried them for years. I have also relied on revolvers without hesitation. Now I carry a 14 shot 9mm. Makes me feel better.

There is no magic bullet. Men have died from a single 22 hit while others fight on after absorbing numerous rifle bullets. I'm sure some combat vet somewhere has a great story about a guy who required a second burst of 50 caliber fire to put him down. Every situation is different and so is every person. You can't compare humans to deer or pigs or other animals as the lesser animals don't think about being shot, they react solely on instinct so they won't sit down and wait for help like a human might.

This argument will never be settled. Choose your weapon and let it go.

 

[MCgunner]

Regarding pigs, there are some reported incidents of pigs chasing picnickers onto picnic tables at Henry Coe park in the Bay Area and keeping them there until rangers got there to scare them away. Now how much of this was provoked by the tourists via feeding or trying to infringe on territory and how much is real aggression vs. imaginary aggression in the minds of the tourists I don't know.

In Frisco? Yeah, like those hippies weren't stoned on acid or anything.

ROFLMAO!

Pigs don't eat people. I don't know if they eat hippies or not.

In the words of Eric Cartman....all they do is smoke dope and smell bad.....

 

[Gryffydd]

Pigs don't eat...

It doesn't matter how this sentence ends...it will always be wrong

 

[goon]

I don't have a 6" GP-100 - went with the 4" stainless verstion instead.
It's stout enough to hold up the rear end of a vintage Ford pick-up and built like an anvil. I had trouble with the sights on mine when I got it and Ruger worked it over for me to repair the issue. They also slicked the action up for free, presumably as an apology for the inconvenience. They are totally forgiven!

Anyhow, it's a great, solid gun. I'd think the 6" would be better for dedicated outdoor carry. It will add some extra velocity and with solids, that means just a little more penetration. I've never shot a 6" GP-100 but I did own a 6" S&W Model 28. IIRC, the extra barrel did make it just a little easier to shoot well. Also, FWIW, the GP-100 kind of feels a little like an N-frame to me - just a little too large for its intended use (in kind of a comforting way) and utterly solid.
I went with the 4" in mine because it makes it just a little better as an "all around" handgun that can also do CCW in some circumstances.
But based on my experience with Ruger, you're not likely to be disappointed either way.
Also, I love older S&W's but the newer ones all have those freakisly stupid locks built into them - one more part that can fail and require a trip to the factory (or to the emergency room or morgue if you're unlucky). No thanks. I'll stick with point-and-click Rugers.

 

[ijosef]

The moral of this thread is that everyone should own both a pistol in .45ACP and a wheelgun in .357 magnum.

 

[strangelittleman]

Quote:
I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.

I saw that video in one of my training classes for work. The entire thing was captured on the dashboard cam of the patrol car. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the fat slob of a perpetrator was using a .25 auto (like a Raven or Lorcin saturday night special), although that's not really the point. I don't think anyone is going to argue that a .357 magnum isn't a better fight stopper than a .22LR or a .25ACP. This story is just proof that all firearms, regardless of size/caliber/power, can easily kill, and that users need to respect how dangerous they can be.

All other things being equal, one is more likely to survive a hit with a .25ACP than a .357magnum, but both can kill you equally dead.

If this dash board footage is of the S.C. Trooper death back in the early 90's or so, The fat bad guy had a .22mag mini-revolver and while the Trooper was carrying a S&W M65 .357 mag, it was loaded with Winchester .38spl+p 125gr SJHP. I believe it was this incident and another near Greenville/Spartanburg that caused the SCHP & SLED to switch from .38spl+p to the .40 S&W Glock 22 in the early 90's.
The loading of K-frame S&Ws with .38spl+p ammo, by LEAs was common place in the 80's-90's, my dept did the same in our M65s until we switched to .40S&W autopistols.

 

[oak1971]

My 4 inch ruger security six will numb my hand with factory 158 grain defensive loads. I run 38 +p most of the time. Funny thing is my 44 mag guns feel tame by comparison.

 

[Marvin KNox]

I agree!

We all need at least one .45 ACP and one .357 magnum.