Street reputation of various handgun loads?

[peacebutready]

There is ballistic gel everyone is familiar with. For this thread, I'd like to keep gel out of the discussion.

What is the street reputation of particular loads using common handgun calibers like 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and .357 magnum?

What are loads that did well in which caliber? What loads were disappointing in which caliber?

Let's keep this discussion to what people heard/read from good sources, and perhaps experienced themselves. Also, lets keep this to what people have heard, read, or experienced in the past few or several years.

An example of an answer may be: The 115gr XYZ 9mm hollow point bullet has been shown to penetrate insufficiently. Or, the 165gr ABC .40 S&W hollow point has acquired an excellent reputation for the use of defense.

 

[Slamfire]

That sure is a simple request. "I want real world data on killing people with different types of bullets"

If you are really curious, how about joining the Russian Army, and run controlled experiments executing Ukrainians? Record what loads were used to shoot prisoners, and whether the prisoner kicked like a jack rabbit after falling into burial pits.

Simple.

 

[peacebutready]

That sure is a simple request. "I want real world data on killing people with different types of bullets"

If you are really curious, how about joining the Russian Army, and run controlled experiments executing Ukrainians? Record what loads were used to shoot prisoners, and whether the prisoner kicked like a jack rabbit after falling into burial pits.

Simple.

No, rather stopping a threat.

 

[Jim Watson]

It’s a shame the Internet Generation doesn’t have a Marshall and Sanow or even an anonymous reporter with a herd of goats.
Not to mention a Thompson and LaGarde who shot enough cadavers and cattle to prove .45 was best.

 

[CDW4ME]

There is this:
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
My take aways:
32 acp performance based on limited examples, skewing its performance. If one thinks 32 acp has better ASAP potential than 40/45 - LOL.
Bullet types not separated, all 9mm/40/45 lumped together, which is disappointing.
Regardless of caliber it takes two hits on average to incapacitate, this is useful; two hits to incapacitate.
No caliber has 100% hits, nor can it be expected. We all intend to shoot like John Wick under stress (myself included) but in reality it doesn't average that way.
So, it takes two hits on average to incapacitate, being generous that means three rounds fired, assuming 2 out of 3 rounds fired hit (better than police average).
For someone carrying a snub, they have 5 rounds and based on the data can expect to fire 3 rounds (one miss / two hits) to incapacitate a single attacker.
Based on data, a 5 shot snub may be capacity deficient for two attackers. Of course, looking into the crystal ball of anticipated threat some snub carriers will dismiss that.

 

[hso]

No, rather stopping a threat.

DATA, not anecdotes, shows that any caliber .32 or above is nearly equally effective at stopping an attack. Not DRT, but causing the attacker to stop their attack. Getting shot, or shot at, with something other than a "pop" is the controlling factor.

 

[trackskippy]

The only true answer here is "shoot them to the ground" and continue until they have stopped. That might take one round, it might take everything youve got in the gun and a reload. Theres no way to know until its done.

Magic bullets dont exist. Understanding that handgun rounds suck as man stoppers, and you need to continually do your part to make sure that youre at the top of your game, so you can actually make whatever the rounds are, actually have a chance at doing something, by putting them where they need to go on demand, is more important than what the caliber is.

 

[Anchorite]

Everything is some sort of compromise. And in a gunfight, you get the fight you get. You don’t get to pick and choose.

Do your homework, prepare the best that you can. That’s all you - or anyone - can do.

Data is historical, so keep that in mind. Sure, it’s good to review and study it, but by no means stake your life on it. Field conditions are constantly changing.

 

[cslinger]

To try and answer the OP’s question.
Federal 9BPLE for old tech always had a good reputation
Most .357 Magnum defensive ammo has a good reputation.
The vast amount of .40 shootings in the areas I am familiar with had a great reputation (HST and Gold Dot being the prominent round)

Those are the ones I am most familiar with.

 

[Jim Watson]

DATA, not anecdotes, shows that any caliber .32 or above is nearly equally effective at stopping an attack.

Man, just think of the time, money, and lead expended by various governments to produce more powerful sidearms. Maybe Teddy Roosevelt was right after all.

 

[hso]

Jim,

Civilian SD shootings and warfare involve different criteria.
The "study" on SD shootings to stop a criminal attacker surprised me initially. I was solidly in the "any caliber that didn't start with .45 is too small" school and that more of any caliber was essential. But then I wondered why .32 to .45 looked so similar in the 1800 shootings studied in stopping an attacker from continuing the attack right away if what was commonly believed and supported by ballistic gel or with fatality information.

Criminals are motivated differently from soldiers.
Soldiers fight for each other. Soldiers put their lives at risk for each other. Soldiers are lead, or at least commanded, for the goals of others. Soldiers operate at different ranges beyond SD distances and they operate with many more opponents than in SD. Soldiers are trained to be warriors, or at least fighters, expecting their opponents to fight back. Criminals...not so much any of those things.
Criminal prey on those they think are weaker and defenseless. They aren't "fighting" an opponent or defending their family when preying on victims. They are not expecting any resistance ambushing their victims. They expect capitulation and submission through intimidation and fear in their victim. They don't believe that they'll be injured.

SD flips the script on the criminal attacker when the victim fights back and that's probably the reason that the firepower in self defense is less a factor than the will of the victim to fight back when making a criminal break off an attack as opposed to killing the attacker to get them to break off an attack.

 

[JohnKSa]

Let's keep this discussion to what people heard/read from good sources, and perhaps experienced themselves. Also, lets keep this to what people have heard, read, or experienced in the past few or several years.

Let's think about that.

1. How often can you find information on a shooting that tells the caliber used?
2. How often can you find information on a shooting that tells the specific loading used?
3. How often does information on a shooting include the time from the hit to the time the attacker was incapacitated? (Videos are about the only way to get this and even then it can be difficult to determine which shots were hits and which were misses.)
4. How often does information on a shooting include good data on where the bullets hit, what order they hit and the paths they took through the attacker, including penetration figures for each one?
5. How often does the information include data on the expansion of a bullet?

While your request sounds reasonable, it turns out that the information required to even start working on it just isn't available. Even if you get the autopsy data, trying to get solid information on the specific loading used can be a problem and it doesn't give you information on time from hit to incapacitation.

Pick a few shootings and try to find the information that would be necessary to answer your question. I think you will very rapidly find that what you are asking for just doesn't exist in any usable form.

 

[crstrode]

lets keep this to what people have heard, read, or experienced in the past few or several years.

I have heard that a 38 or 45 of any variety will do the trick on most seasoned folks. When it comes to the younger generations, the mere thought of a BB gun or slingshot will stop them in their tracks.

 

[Jim Watson]

SD flips the script on the criminal attacker when the victim fights back and that's probably the reason that the firepower in self defense is less a factor than the will of the victim to fight back when making a criminal break off an attack as opposed to killing the attacker to get them to break off an attack.

Hence my reference to Teddy Roosevelt. When NYC Police Comissioner, he standardized on the .32 Colt. The US Army was still carrying .38s at the time. European militaries had a lot of 7.5, 8, and 9mm.

 

[CapnMac]

An example of an answer may be: The 115gr XYZ 9mm hollow point bullet has been shown to penetrate insufficiently. Or, the 165gr ABC .40 S&W hollow point has acquired an excellent reputation for the use of defense.

Hard to quantify anything with a near infinite number of variables.
As our esteemed @JohnKSa points out, media reports seldom provide enough data, let alone conclusive data.
Further, we cannot discount media biases in such reporting.

But, there's also another factor we cannot ignore--the popular perception of just how many such incidents actually occur in in real life is incredibly smaller than depicted in the various media. The Thomas & Sanow data was beat up when it was first released almost more than it is now (almost). The primary "knock" was on the very small sample sizes.

Small sample sizes skew results in unexpected ways. Say a thing happens twice in a give time frame. If if occurs three times in the same time frame, that could be presented as a 50% increase. But, what if it's 2 in a hundred, e.g., 2%; one more occurrence is 3 in 100, or 3%. Note how much less significant that "50% increase" seems in that perspective. Increase that hundred by an order of magnitude, to 1000, or 10,000.

Now, let's also consider the endless myriad of situations where one or more people shoots one or more other people. This virtually never occurs at a zero-to-zero deflection angle (as in square on, face-to-face). So, you have an endless circle of angles of interactions. In addition, both people shooting, and being shot at, twist, and turn and do things that change the alignments. People being shot at will be defensive, they will hold up hands or arms, or duck or bend out of pure reflex.

Then, we get to actual shot placement, which is even less well-reported, barring actual autopsy reports, which can be misleading. So if Ammo X hits a person in the thigh, and they stop whatever bad they they are up to--that ought be measured as "a stop." But, a round that passes through a shoulder blade after getting through an upper arm bone, but the person so struck, did not "go down," then that cannot be a "stop." One might be a 44mag the other a 32acp--and that may not matter.

There are a number of people who have been assaulted with a hammer. What kind of hammer is likely terra incognita. A US$10 Estwing might be just as effective as a $1000 TI Stilletto as a nail driving tool as an anti-personnel tool--but, the numbers of those used probably tell none of the story.

 

[The Night Rider]

This guy is considered to be the Leading Expert on Ballistics today.

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

6/1/16 When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg As...

pistol-forum.com

I would highly recommend reading that particular discussion.

The place is a forum for "industry leaders" and experts and cops and a bunch of people with a big head. Apparently a significant number of them have actually shot people in the line of duty.

^ all of the proceeding is set up for what I'm about to say next.

I haven't been over there in a while but there used to be a member there that would do a survey every year of what people were actually carrying. The response usually numbered around 500 people. So statistically valid results.

On average 85% of the people that responded to that survey carried a 9 mm round on the list above. Usually in some kind of a Glock.

That was enough for me.

I'm a .40 Fan Boy but I carry a Glock 19 and 124g Speer Gold Dots ammunition

 

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, I check out P-F regularly. If you don't have a Glock 19, you just aren't With It.
Lots of good information in spite of that.

 

[The Night Rider]

Lots of good information in spite of that.

If you can get past the Egos

 

[Jim Watson]

None of us would be posting to the Wide Green World without a bit of ego.

 

[bassjam]

If I went by what I heard on "the street" I'd believe that:

• A 9mm is a great option because you just keep shooting when you miss due to the magazine capacity
• A .40 S&W was a great option because "FBI". But since 2014 we're not sure if it's actually better than 9mm.
• A .45 ACP is a great option because of JMB and 2 world wars. And they don't make a 46.
• A .357 is a great option because of hydrostatic shock, no matter where you hit them.
• A .38sp is a great option because so many detectives were fine carrying 5 round snubbies.
• A .380 ACP is just slightly better than a sharp stick. Maybe. Actually we're still not sure.
• A .32 ACP is about equal to a sharp stick. But it's going to jam in the magazine.
• A 25 ACP is less effective than a sharp stick. It might even tickle.
• A .22lr will bounce around inside an attacker until they're mush inside or it'll be stopped by their clothing; there's no in-between. Unless of cource it just fails to fire.

 

[fastbolt]

This is usually a perennial question that you can read asked by the private citizen shooting enthusiasts, and it usually makes for dynamic debates.

Among the world of LE users, though, it's not so easily spun to make one particular caliber or ammunition choice the clear 'winner'. Why? Because when you talk to enough people from enough different agencies, usually meaning the guys and gals from the Firearms Training Units who see the results of all the OIS shooting incidents (especially as it may pertain to training regimens), all the common service calibers and duty ammunition choices from the major American ammo makers seem to 'work' about the same.

Caliber choices are more often based upon training considerations and needs. (Cost, weapon maintenance and shooter-related issues like felt recoil, controllability, etc.)

There's always going to be the usual ebb & flow of people exerting influence based upon 'favorites' at one time or another, or because some gun/ammo company came along with a terrific deal to offer them ... but the day-in/day-out 'street results' don't often evoke some clear 'winner' when it comes to either caliber or brand of duty ammunition. It's gear.

Now, if some particular owner/shooter decides that the felt recoil of some caliber - or ammunition choice - is too much for them to experience the desired level of controllability and accuracy? That's another question.

This question has been asked for decades, and will still be asked in future decades. New generations of owners/shooters will ponder upon it.

 

[Old Dog]

Many years ago, I once questioned the effectiveness of the ammo we were then issued (Federal Hydra-Shok, 124 gr +P+ JHP) when a couple officers shot a guy 16 times (yes, even scored a few center of mass hits) ... and the subject lived (to sue and win lotsa money). Never found out how deeply any of the bullets penetrated, hmm.

There's no coordinated statistics kept on the "street results" of firearm ammunition and there's really no vehicle to report ammunition performance nor any agency that collects this sort of data (or if anyone is collecting this data, it's not published nor available to the public).

What we end up with is mostly anecdotal. Mas Ayoob tends to frequently mention -- in a general way -- various loads that agencies report to him as, "this department is happy with the performance of its issue load."

Few folks seem to talk much about the "street reputation" of various handgun loads.

 

[C-grunt]

Ill give my opinion. Ive been a cop for coming up on 17 years. The entire time Ive been a patrol officer. I also work for a major metropolitan department. Between murders, justifiable homicides, assaults, justifiable shootings, accidental shootings, suicides, accidental self inflicted shootings, and police shootings.. Ive seen a lot of people shot. I also did two tours in Iraq. But that was mostly rifle rounds. Though I did see a little bit of 9mm ball used there.

Being the gun nut I take particular interest in how the guns and bullets perform. Also being a firearms instructor helps me get info from shootings where Im not involved in the investigation. Ive also talked with multiple trauma center doctors and nursing staff members. Several who are avid shooters themselves.

from my experience shot placement and penetration are the most important aspects. Stopping a determined attacker requires good hits to very vital structures. The heart, the major blood vessels, spinal cord, and the brain. Nicking these things can definitely be fatal, but many times are not fight stoppers. I have seen plenty of people give up or pass out after being shot in other areas too, but the determined drugged up guys can require hits that destroy the most vital structures.

FMJ works, but hollow points work better. The difference between a FMJ wound and an expanded hollow point wound is noticeable. But it isn't the big deal that some make it out to be. Id rather have a hollow point not expand and drive deep than to over expand and not penetrate enough. All the duty rounds when using quality hollow points usually expand decent and penetrate enough.

Penetrating heavy bone will greatly reduce the performance on the other side.

When talking about duty handgun rounds (38, 9mm, 40, 45) they all perform about the same. The magnums have an abundance of power. Ive never seen one underperform. Im sure there are loads out there that would be sub optimal, but I havent seen it. Then again, I dont see a whole lot of magnums being used outside of suicides.

The smaller rounds tend to lack penetration when hitting bone. Every 380 hollow point Ive seen used has had lower than optimal penetration. Id personally use FMJ in 380. That doesnt mean that 380 wont expand and penetrate enough in a more ideal circumstance, like a full frontal shot. But adding in an arm or an oblique angle and the penetration might end up lacking.

22lr can have wildly differing results. Ive seen some punch right through bone and have good penetration while others splatter on the bone and sometimes barely crack it. Im assuming that has to do with the hardness of the lead used in the bullet.

 

[Agsalaska]

One thing I know for sure is this idea that anything .32 or .380 and up is just as effective as any other handgun cartridge is absurd. Or at least completely misunderstood. A .357 Magnum will kill faster than a 9mm which will kill faster than a .32acp. If you don't believe that you need to go kill some things and get back to me. Go experiment on some trapped hogs, or go doe hunting with pistols.

Every ER or post morgue person I have ever known, not some anonymous online persona but an actual person, has agreed with my observations in the field. People shot with bigger bullets are by and large much more docile than those shot with smaller bullets.

The confusion is in effectiveness. A 9mm may be more effective than a .357 but that has more to do with program compliance, shot placement, volume, and accuracy than it does the bullet. One bullet in the exact same spot from a .357 will kill faster than the exact same shot from a 9mm(assuming comparable bullet designs)

Last, I am fairly open minded, but I do not find the above in any way debatable. Bigger, more powerful cartridges kill things faster than smaller less powerful cartridges assuming similar bullet design. And for the record I carry either 9mm or a .32 mag depending on the day.

 

[Tinman357]

My opinions may be outdated, but I've always considered the .357 to be the gold standard among easily carried pistols. Especially that 125gn semi jacketed hollow point that both Remington and Federal have put out for so long now.

That said, crime has gotten worse, and there is a much higher chance of getting picked out by multiple assailants.

Because of that disturbing evolution, I carry either a 1911, that I'm most proficient with, or a higher capacity 9mm and multiple magazines with either.

Running, for me, is a thing of the past, and as I've aged into being considered an "easy mark" I'll have to stand my ground and hope for the best if avoidance and talking my way out of it doesn't work.