Jim Watson
Member
A cop of my acquaintance had occasion to shoot a felon with a 140 gr HP. Didn't do the punk a bit of good.The 140gr CCI JHP I liked for a long time (hot & fast) became harder to find, and then it was discontinued.
A cop of my acquaintance had occasion to shoot a felon with a 140 gr HP. Didn't do the punk a bit of good.The 140gr CCI JHP I liked for a long time (hot & fast) became harder to find, and then it was discontinued.
A cop of my acquaintance had occasion to shoot a felon with a 140 gr HP. Didn't do the punk a bit of good.
Presumably the fmj referred to above are round nose ones. There are flat nose bullets as well. In the history of hollow points, I have to wonder if a person would have been better off with the flat nose rather than a hollow point many times. Many hollow points have not penetrated as far in live things as well as in gel.FMJ works, but hollow points work better. The difference between a FMJ wound and an expanded hollow point wound is noticeable. But it isn't the big deal that some make it out to be. Id rather have a hollow point not expand and drive deep than to over expand and not penetrate enough. All the duty rounds when using quality hollow points usually expand decent and penetrate enough...
The best answer so far IMHO . The neglected Sig .357 is pretty much a semi auto .357 magnum .I carry a Sig p226 slicked up by Gray Guns with 125 Speer God dots at 1450 fps chronographed. In my testing it is scary in terminal ballistics for thin skin stuff . The magazines hold 15 rounds in +2 size the use .40 S&w cases necked to .358.To try and answer the OP’s question.
Federal 9BPLE for old tech always had a good reputation
Most .357 Magnum defensive ammo has a good reputation.
The vast amount of .40 shootings in the areas I am familiar with had a great reputation (HST and Gold Dot being the prominent round)
Those are the ones I am most familiar with.
Presumably the fmj referred to above are round nose ones. There are flat nose bullets as well. In the history of hollow points, I have to wonder if a person would have been better off with the flat nose rather than a hollow point many times. Many hollow points have not penetrated as far in live things as well as in gel.
As for current quality hollow points, does penetration sometimes come up short in live beings? Up to what size human do they usually penetrate enough?
@goldenPEACEBUTREADY,
I do not think your question is that hard to answer. Police departments and other LEO'S test ammo all the time on the streets and in the field. When I started as an LEO, it was in the early 90's and we were issued .357 magnums. We had previously been issued .38Special +P+ ammo it it worked great, but only some of the time. This led to complaints from the field.
My agency then switched to .357, using the 110 grain sjhp as the baseline with the 125 grain optional if you could qualify. After switching to magnum loads, complaints from the field disappeared.
When we transitioned over to .40 S&W, we used 155 grain jhp at 1,200 fps and again no complaints.
When we went to a smaller gun, we dropped down to the 135 grain jhp at 1,200 fps and this seemed to work well.
The reason for going to a lighter bullet was a result of low qualification scores and failure to qualify.
So we switched to the mild 180 grain jhp. However, the 180 grain we went to was the FEDERAL HST and again no problems.
If an agency uses a certain load, then it probably works, though you have to watch out for politics. NYPD took forever to adopt the 9m.m. and tried several different kinds of ammo to get the .38 Special to do the job, but without adopting a hollow point bullet. It failed.
The FBI came up with an elaborate test to show it was the fault of 1 bullet and not poor training that caused such a disaster in the MIAMI shootout. They then announce the superior stopping power of the 147 grain jhp with proved to not work very well in the street. So again, you have to be careful about the politics.
If a round like the FEDERAL HST or SPEER Gold Dot or WINCHESTER PDX has a good reputation with the police departments and these rounds do, then you can generally go by that as tested and proven.
JIm
I believe your correct, chances of fracture aren't there, a hole through maybe, but fracture not probably. I personally saw a 110 grain + p+ hit a slender build perp at 10 feet and it drilled thru with slight expansion and lodged under skin next to tailbone.With a typical self-defense caliber handgun? Not gonna happen.
Except when the "medical examiner" isn't a medical examiner at all but a forensic anthropologist (mostly works with bones and really badly decayed bodies) and the numbers he provides seem to be made up. Then it seems like it's not real world at all.It doesn't get any more real world than from a medical examiners experience.
Studies upon studies upon studies, even based upon carefully collated and reviewed actual OIS incidents, don't seem to clear up every little detail or address every variable that may be anticipated to occur in the real world. Imagine that.
I remember the service revolver days, as I came to LE during the tail end of those days and carried a .357MAG service revolver for the 80's. Yes, the 125gr JHP/SJHP was catching the attention of LE, but there were still satisfied users of 110gr, 145gr and 158gr Magnum loads. I never talked with anyone who used the Remington 140gr SJHP, myself, but I heard anecdotal discussion of it by a former DoD investigator who specialized in wound ballistics. His opinion was that if the days of the .357MAG service revolver had continued a little longer, the 140gr SJHP would've very likely have eclipsed the 125gr SJHP for duty use. I liked the 145gr STHP, myself, as I could find it very easily and for bargain pricing back then. Usually less expensive than the various 125gr MAG offerings. The 140gr CCI JHP I liked for a long time (hot & fast) became harder to find, and then it was discontinued.
While the 110gr .357MAG acquired a reputation for penetration on the 'shallow end', the .38SPL 110gr +P+ load still had its users, like CA's CHP. A friend of mine was a longtime CHP officer, and became one of their field weapons training officers at some field offices where he was assigned. He carried either the 125gr Magnum or the 110gr .38SPL +P+, depending on what the field office may maintain in inventory wherever he was assigned. (You could only carry what they issued at your field office, and you had to qualify with it, so it you wanted to carry Magnum loads you had to be able to qualify with them.) Interestingly enough, his service years also covered many years after they'd transitioned to .40 S&W, and he became a big proponent of the 180gr JHP .40 load. He once told me that an internal review of both the service revolver and service pistol days resulted in the agency having been better satisfied with the results of the use of 180gr/.40 than any of the previous revolver .357/.38 loads when it came to actual OIS incidents.
Bottom line? I still have the remaining supplies of W-W 145gr STHP, and Rem 125gr & 140gr SJHP, and I'll continue to carry them whenever I carry one or another of my .357's loaded with Magnum ammunition. (A couple of the shortest snubs often see one or another of the more modern +P offerings, but they're among the light Scandium aluminum frame models, so recoil can be a factor.) My 3" & 4" medium-framed .357's see whatever of the remaining rounds is within easy reach, without having to go open up one of the safes or cabinets.
Yeah a .480 Ruger or .500 cartridge wadcutter would be a "probably"Don't get me wrong, it's certainly possible that a typical self-defense pistol bullet in the right place could disable a person's hip joint and make it impossible for them to walk. Garen Brenner put a 9mm FMJ into the shoulder socket of a charging grizzly (admittedly one on the small side--though still larger than any human) which caused it to go down long enough that he was able to put some shots into the head and kill it.
But actually "shattering the pelvic girdle" is a really tall order for a typical self-defense pistol bullet.
Two articles I recently read agree with the above statement. Center-of-Mass has been the ideal placement for stopping a threat. Then there was 2 in center-of-mass and 1 in the head, however a head shot is very hard to hit and hard to penetrate unless you hit a soft spot. The latest info I have is to shoot below the belt, hit the navel or abdomen. Medical info reveals a low hit will cause the perp to buckle and fall and though not lethal it will stop or slow a person down quickly. Second article stated unlike a round nose bullet, especially in a .38 Special, a wad cutter is a very good, hard hitting, deep penetrating projectile. The article disapproves of the Speer HBWC as being too soft , though a commercial round was not mentioned. So far I've been playing with a 148 grain Lee wc and could see a lot of benefit to such a projectile depending on the hardness of the cast. Some consider accuracy to be up to 50 yards.Magic bullets dont exist. Understanding that handgun rounds suck as man stoppers, and you need to continually do your part to make sure that youre at the top of your game, so you can actually make whatever the rounds are, actually have a chance at doing something, by putting them where they need to go on demand, is more important than what the caliber is.
people seem to forget about semi jacketed flat point. not going to expand as well as a HP and not penetrate as deep as a hard cast bullet, but - somewhere in the middle of both, jack of all trades master of none option and probably a better idea than HP if woods or animals, bears of any kind might be involved. or if you ever needed to say, shoot through a door or other barrier.Presumably the fmj referred to above are round nose ones. There are flat nose bullets as well. In the history of hollow points, I have to wonder if a person would have been better off with the flat nose rather than a hollow point many times. Many hollow points have not penetrated as far in live things as well as in gel.
As for current quality hollow points, does penetration sometimes come up short in live beings? Up to what size human do they usually penetrate enough?
Except when the "medical examiner" isn't a medical examiner at all but a forensic anthropologist (mostly works with bones and really badly decayed bodies) and the numbers he provides seem to be made up. Then it seems like it's not real world at all.
Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
Hi Biker. I have not seen any results from this round. I would only be guessing how it would perform. Sorry. -Dwww.thehighroad.orgMaybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
With enough practice, one can double tap a .45acp as fast and as accurately as a nine and the holes are bigger. That's just a fact... Biker And still doesn't mean anything because the holes aren't that much bigger...not to mention bigger holes don't kill people, shots to the right places...www.thehighroad.orgMaybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
those cops were armed with 9 MM the bullets had no effect on them Pretty stupid argument IMO. The 9mm is known to have better penetration than the .45. Besides, in that situation, neither would have shown an effect on the robbers.www.thehighroad.org
Did they survive?I have personally seen 230-grain FMJ .45 ACP and 110-grain JHP .357 Mag IMMEDIATELY stop a situation with one round.
In all three cases, they succumbed to their wound.Did they survive?
I recall a large gentleman being shot 6 times with a .357 magnum. He survived but the leo died when bubba shot him with a 22short. I’m sure someone will be along shortly to tell the tell better then I can.View attachment 1170125
Pretend he is charging at you with a machete. Pretend that your absolutely perfect, 124 gr. 9mm hollow point, that meets all the requirements of the FBI protocol and, penetrates 14-17” in calibrated ballistic gel, is what you really want.
He’s not ballistic gel. He didn’t read the performance figures for that $2.00 a round bonded, striated, absolutely perfectly designed, to meet FBI standards, 9mm bullet.
His neck is bigger than my thighs.
I’ll take a .357 Magnum Hard Cast 158 gr Flat point. Thanks.