The Inform/Don't Inform Debate Reversed.

[Treo]

In the short time that I have participated in this forum, the debate over wether or not we should inform a police officer we are carrying any time there is official contact has been ongoing. I would like to revisit it again from a slightly different angle.
GIVEN SITUATION : You are a CHP holder. You are carrying . You are in a state that DOES NOT require disclosure. The official contact is a simple traffic stop ( you are guilty of the infraction) & you WILL NOT be asked to step out of the vehicle & your weapon truly is concealed.
QUESTION : How does informing the officer that you are armed improve the situation? What would be a good reason to inform? Why should the officer be privy to that information? And finally, if the officer why not the manager of your local Wal-Mart ? ( after all your being armed affects his safety as much as the cops)

 

[Old Dog]

How does informing the officer that you are armed improve the situation?

Not one whit, if you are simply going to receive a warning or a traffic citation from the officer. He/she will quickly have the info that your plates and driver license match up, and unless you're displaying signs of intoxication, drug use or otherwise acting hinky, you'll soon be on your way, albeit possibly in a less pleasant mood than before the stop.

Why should the officer be privy to that information?

Depends on the reason for the stop. If your vehicle matches the description of say, a car that just sped away from a bank robbery, and the PDs are pulling over every white Accord they see, you'll quickly realize you're not undergoing a normal traffic stop. If the first officer tells you to wait (until his/her back-up arrives) or does NOT inform you why you're stopped, or you sense you will be told to exit your vehicle, your best bet is to immediately (and calmly) state that you are licensed to carry, that you are carrying, and that your weapon is located on your body in/at ________.

why not the manager of your local Wal-Mart ?

Truly NOT even close to the same situation. My being armed affects NO ONE'S safety but MY OWN and MY FAMILY'S (and possibly a victim or innocent bystander should I be inclined to intervene to protect someone else).

Informing the officer boils down to simple common sense. Just stay calm and make sure you get a good feel for any situation that could possibly lead to you having to disclose you are carrying -- which generally is gonna be a situation that's not good, and if you're not stupid, you'll sense what's going on from a mile away.

 

[LKB3rd]

My state doesn't require it, and i would not volunteer the information unless he was going to frisk me.

 

[GEM]

I go for always inform because:

1. I don't know why the cop stopped me for sure. I don't want a nervous individual of unknown personality to find a lethal weapon by surprise.

2. Since having a weapon implies that I am a good guy and checked out by the state, etc. - that might shade his or her perception of me in a discretionary situation. This has happened to me. No ticket and a nice conversation.

3. It indicates to the officer that I am polite and appreciate the officer's safety concerns, as in #2.

4. I don't think telling is any violation of rights.

5. The WalMart manager is not an agent of the law and not talking to me because of some potential legal difficulties which can lead up to that officer taking me to jail or shooting me.

 

[Treo]

What I'm finding out from this thread is that when you take all the variables out of the equation. nobody seems to be able to come up W/ a good reason to inform. In Colorado if the cop has reason to ask you to step out of the vehicle, then it is very likely that he's going to frisk you & handcuff you anyway so in that instance yes it would be beneficial to inform. Short of that, not happenin'

 

[chris in va]

I have a good reason. Courtesy.

Hey, they know anyway by pulling up your license number.

 

[Valkman]

I also inform - 99% of the cops here are going to ask if there's a gun in the vehicle anyway. Next, when they run your DL they'll find out anyway and then want to know why you didn't tell him.

Do you have a CCW? Ever been in a CCW class? All the ones here tell you to always tell the cop, and usually you get off light. Don't tell the LEO and you aren't getting out of anything.

And the last question is really ridiculous.

 

[Treo]

In the state of Colorado the police are prohibited by law from registering guns, tracking gun sales, or keeping a data base of gun owners. This includes a data base that would inform them of my CHP ( yes I have one.) status. If a cop asks me I am required to disclose so of course I would comply W/ the law. I'm sorry but I don't see it as "courtesy" to whip out your CHP everytime you meet a cop, I see it as more of a way of trying to impress the cop, sooooo not interested. Last point if I walk into a Wal-Mart there exists every bit as much oppurtunity for someone to see, and misconstrue my intentions with, my weapon. I'm certainly on THEIR property & if it would make a cop feel safer to know that I'm one of the "good guys" & that I went through all those extensive background checks (As well as that laboriously (3 whole hours) long CHP class ) why wouldn't the same disclosure calm the fears of the Wal-Mart manager? For that matter maybe I could get a TEE shirt made so every one around me could feel safe. Yeah that's the ticket

 

[jcramin]

Actual Situation. Pulled over for speeding. Hand officer Drivers license, ins card, and, hand gun carry permit.

Officer says, Oh you have a Carry permit,( he hands back everything ) Please slow down and have a nice day.

 

[easyg]

I never volunteer that I'm carrying to anyone unless it is apparent that I'm about to be physically searched.
I'm not a cop killer and the very fact that I may have a pistol in my possession does not endanger the cop in any way.

As for the Wal-mart manager....
Again, I never volunteer that I'm carrying to anyone unless it is apparent that I'm about to be physically searched.

BTW, here in NC, even if you have a CCW permit you are not legally allowed to carry on privately owned property if they have a notice (a sign) that clearly states or indicates that firearms are prohibited.
And I've never seen a Wal-mart in NC that did not have a sign indicating no weapons.
So, in NC, even if you have a CCW permit, you are not allowed to legally carry in Wal-mart....or in any state, county, or federal building, or in any school zone, or in any store that clearly prohibits weapons (which is about every place of commerce I've ever seen), or in any place that serves alcohol...yes, that means restaurants too.

In my opinion, the NC CCW permit is'nt worth the paper its printed on.

 

[foghornl]

Required to inform in Ohio

 

[Smurfslayer]

+1 Chris in VA.

One thing you get out of the way via voluntary, CORRECTLY DONE, and up front disclosure in the above situation is that you have subtly let the cop know that you're not trying to hide anything from them. Regardless of what their opinion of the current firearms law is, they now have some more information they did not have previously. If you're a good conversationalist, you can hand over the permit with the rest of the papers. No doubt now; the conversation is going to ensue along the lines of 'I see you have a permit here, do you have a weapon?' 'Yes, I sure do, on my belt, in a holster at my n o'clock'. If this doesn't open the door for a warning, rather than a citation then there are other mitigating factors, but you've lost nothing by trying.

Does it open the door for some rookie who doesn't know what they're doing to do wrong? Maybe, but I think Chris's point is along the lines of the "Golden rule". If you were the detaining officer, and the detainee lets you know what's going on right away, how would you react as opposed to Jane Citizen who, knowing she was eggregiously reckless, starts dropping the crocodile tears trying to work you? Or perhaps the guy who says "why aren't you chasing real criminals?"

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

I have a good reason. Courtesy.

Hey, they know anyway by pulling up your license number

Perhaps in your state. In many states, such as Florida, that is not the case. Do not try to use that as an all-encompassing argument.

+1 Chris in VA.

One thing you get out of the way via voluntary, CORRECTLY DONE, and up front disclosure in the above situation is that you have subtly let the cop know that you're not trying to hide anything from them. Regardless of what their opinion of the current firearms law is, they now have some more information they did not have previously. If you're a good conversationalist, you can hand over the permit with the rest of the papers. No doubt now; the conversation is going to ensue along the lines of 'I see you have a permit here, do you have a weapon?' 'Yes, I sure do, on my belt, in a holster at my n o'clock'. If this doesn't open the door for a warning, rather than a citation then there are other mitigating factors, but you've lost nothing by trying.

Does it open the door for some rookie who doesn't know what they're doing to do wrong? Maybe, but I think Chris's point is along the lines of the "Golden rule". If you were the detaining officer, and the detainee lets you know what's going on right away, how would you react as opposed to Jane Citizen who, knowing she was eggregiously reckless, starts dropping the crocodile tears trying to work you? Or perhaps the guy who says "why aren't you chasing real criminals?"

I'm trying to be polite as possible while calling bullcrap on this one. I don't know any cops who really change their reactions to people for the better once any person has informed them that they have a weapon. My last traffic stop, I played the game just like you say, and may I say, you make it sound great. It didn't go so great for me. After informing the officer and asking for his direction, the next thing I knew, I was on the hood of my wife's car being seached while another deputy stood behind me with his hand on his gun, ready to shoot me, should I attack with my skillfully sharpened toenails(they had already taken anything else that could be a weapon, like my credit cards and car keys and sunglasses).

I used to be one of those guys who informed officers all the time during interactions. I work with officers, and I know that many don't care or actually approve of concealed weapons by citizens. I also know that some would gladly snatch you from your car and leave you spreadeagled on the hood of your car in the hot Florida summer while he's making sure you don't have any warrants. I know of at least one deputy (who happens to live in my very own neighborhood, BTW) who would ask anybody sporting a weapon, "Why would YOU need protection?"

My point is, there are consequences when you feel the need to inform an officer of your firearm. Understand that some are not so nice, either.

 

[easyg]

One thing you get out of the way via voluntary, CORRECTLY DONE, and up front disclosure in the above situation is that you have subtly let the cop know that you're not trying to hide anything from them.

I have to disagree.
Only a very naive cop would believe that you really have nothing to hide.
Every cop that I have ever personally known all agree on one thing if nothing else:
Everyone lies to cops.

Every cop that I have ever known automatically assumes that he is being lied to whenever he stops someone.
A healthy dose of skepticism is even encouraged in police training.

You might be innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the court, but you are guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of a cop.
After all, why would a cop stop someone whom they felt was innocent of breaking the law?
Unless it's just a routine license/seatbelt/DWI check, they have stopped you specifically because they believe that you have broken the law.

When you tell a cop, "by the way, I have a CCW permit and I'm carrying a pistol in a belt holster", he's probably thinking something like "I wonder how many other weapons this guy has in his car or on his person that he's not telling me about?".

Remember, there are plenty of criminal types who haven't been caught yet....and some of them have legal CCW permits just like you.

I've been stopped before and asked if I had any weapons.....
I told the cop that I had a knife in my front pocket.
I'm sure that the officer didn't think "Gee, this guy is so forthcoming about the knife in his pocket....I'll bet he has nothing to hide".

 

[Treo]

On the few occasions that I have had to interact W/ the local P.D., I have noticed that the departmental mindset is " Every body's a perp" & " Every body's armed" I will go to any LEGAL length to avoid interaction W/ them & if forced into such interaction I make it policy not to give them any information they don't specifically request.

 

[Soybomb]

How does informing the officer that you are armed improve the situation?

I see threads posted here all the time where someone gets pulled over for speeding, they hand over their permit and the officer gets a bit friendlier, chats a bit, and sends them off with a warning. Who knows, maybe its your lucky day and they'll think you're probably a pretty good guy if you have a permit, maybe they won't care and write you the ticket you deserve anyway, maybe they'll panic a little and make the stop more annoying. I imagine they've dealt with other legally armed people before and probably aren't going to be THAT surprised by a person with a carry license.

When you tell a cop, "by the way, I have a CCW permit and I'm carrying a pistol in a belt holster", he's probably thinking something like "I wonder how many other weapons this guy has in his car or on his person that he's not telling me about?".

And? They're going to panic about a cased gun in the rear more than a gun on the person? They think they're probably stolen? Even if that thought is true, I don't see where it goes.

 

[silverking]

Wow---I'd hate to live in an area with patrol officers with as negative minds as some have suggested. While it's prudent for an officer to be extremly cautious on any traffic stop, I doubt that the usual case is one of total distrust(for a minor traffic violation).
If stopped for a traffic violation, I inform the officer of my ccw permit and my current status(carrying or not). It's mandated by law here. Generally, I carry owb on the right hip and my wallet is in my right hip pocket. Before I even think about reaching for my wallet the officer is going to know there is a weapon in that area. I ask him/ her what he/she wants me to do.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Easyg. You need to talk to your Wally World...Not posted in Missouri...I carry all the time in Wally World...They would loose a lot of business if they did...

 

[Old Dog]

treo stated

On the few occasions that I have had to interact W/ the local P.D., I have noticed that the departmental mindset is " Every body's a perp" & " Every body's armed"

Uh, treo, do your local cops tell you this, or can you read their minds? Look, it's the nature of the job that makes cops suspicious, but please, give them a little bit of credit. You can usually detect within the first few seconds of the encounter whether you've pulled over a good citizen or someone who appears to have something to hide (and almost always that's being intoxicated, holding drugs and sometimes, illegal weapons).

In this state (the original shall-issue state), CPLs are commonplace and there is no requirement to inform. Therefore, the WSP troopers, townies or deputies that pull you over may assume you're packing, but absent any sign of previous or ongoing wrongdoing (odor of intoxicants, pot, paraphrenalia in the open, outstanding warrants, bad plates) and/or weird or inappropriate behavior (extreme fidgityness, nervousness, babbling, eye movement, etc.), 99 out of 100 times, the cop will simply inform you straightaway what the violation was and either give you a warning or a ticket.

If there's no requirement to inform, you're not being asked to exit the vehicle, and since it's a routine traffic stop and you're not gonna be pat-searched, IF YOU'RE NOT ASKED, DON'T TELL.

As I said in my previous post, which no one apparently read, there may be a situation where you'd want -- and need -- to inform the officer you're carrying at the earliest opportunity. But to believe that every situation is the same and there should be one protocol for every time you're pulled over isn't right.

Sheesh, some of you really overthink this whole process.

 

[romma]

I can see possibly being hassled more in CT... Maybe not, but I would rather collect my ticket and be on my way. I seriously doubt I would be given a break, and the hassle wouldn't be worth it otherwise.

 

[Treo]

To Old Dog

Yes I have actually had officers of the CSPD state to me that as far as they're concerned they assume every one they interact W/ is armed. From this datum I can extrapolate the assumption of " every body's a perp" . To me this indicates an institutional distrust , and suspicion, of the very citizens the police are supposed to be "protecting" Why should I give someone who could really ruin my day a reason to do so? FYI I don't overthink it if I get pulled over (rare occurance) I have my license , registration & POI in my hand on the steering wheel when the cop walks up to the car. I do not inform unless I am asked to step out of the vehicle ( never happened yet) because at that point I know I'm going to get searched ( and very likely cuffed, for "my safety " of course) Where is the over thinking?

 

[easyg]

Opps.
I was wrong, plain and simple.

I just talked to one of my young cousins, who happens to work at Wal-mart, and he informed me that I am mistaken....firearms are not prohibited at the local Wal-mart.

Now if we can just get other stores to follow suit.


Sorry for the unintentional disinformation.

Easyg.

 

[Old Dog]

Well, treo, you were the one who asked the questions in your threadstarting first post. I assume CSPD would be Colorado Springs; not having any experience with these chaps, I guess I'll go along with your generalization that they all view every citizen they pull over as a "perp." (By the way, they must still be watching all the re-runs of "NYPD Blue" ... do they use the term "skell" also?). Anyway, of course the cop pulling you over is gonna assume you could be armed. This has nothing to do with "institutional distrust" or suspicion of all the citizens cops are sworn to protect, simply everything to do with staying alert, knowing that "routine" traffic stops often result in negative situations.

In your last post (#21), you then informed us that you would do pretty much everything I recommended in my first two posts (#2 & 19). So, apart from the whole Wal-Mart thing then (which, by the way, I thought I provided a spiffy answer to), hopefully, your questions have been answered.

 

[Smurfslayer]

I'm trying to be polite as possible while calling bullcrap on this one.

Yeah... me too.

My last traffic stop, I played the game just like you say, and may I say, you make it sound great. It didn't go so great for me. After informing the officer and asking for his direction, the next thing I knew, I was on the hood of my wife's car being seached while another deputy stood behind me with his hand on his gun, ready to shoot me, should I attack with my skillfully sharpened toenails(they had already taken anything else that could be a weapon, like my credit cards and car keys and sunglasses).

What was the result of the complaint you filed? It's rare for this type of behavior in front of witnesses. That is certainly up there amongst the worst encounters with public service. I'm glad nobody was seriously hurt.

I know of at least one deputy (who happens to live in my very own neighborhood, BTW) who would ask anybody sporting a weapon, "Why would YOU need protection?"

And?

My point is, there are consequences when you feel the need to inform an officer of your firearm. Understand that some are not so nice, either.

And sometimes not. In Fairfax county one of our highly trained professionals masquerading as law enforcement told a guy he stopped he would shoot him because he didn't disclose. He got the whole conversation on tape.

There's no one right answer here because one size doesn't fit all.

Only a very naive cop would believe that you really have nothing to hide. Every cop that I have ever personally known all agree on one thing if nothing else:
Everyone lies to cops.

Ask a stupid question... "Do you know how fast you were going?" and "do you know why I stopped you? - right. If I knew that I wouldn't be wasting my time here, on the side of the road with you. I would've simply driven another route and avoided the whole thing. But alas I wasn't gifted with clairvoyance so here we are with you asking those silly questions....

There's no single right answer since every person is different, and we can't possibly know what's going through their mind at a stop but you can at least try courtesy. If it isn't returned, then yeah it's probably going to be a bad encounter and silence would be golden at that point.

Every cop that I have ever known automatically assumes that he is being lied to whenever he stops someone.
A healthy dose of skepticism is even encouraged in police training.

True enough. Lying is another thing encouraged because it's perfectly legal for them to do. But even Agent Mulder had to trust *someone*...

 

[Treo]

To Old Dog

First, we clearly agree on the issue . Although ,I still believe that if it's a "courtesy" to inform a cop that I'm carrying so he feels safer working around me , then it would only make sense ( or maybe it would make as MUCH sense) to inform the manager at my local Wal- Mart so he can feel safe too.
I didn't start this thread to ask questions so much, but to look at an old debate from a new POV. The answers that I have received so far tell me that my original position , There's no good reason to voluntarily inform during a simple traffic stop ( given no legal requirement to do so). You said you don't have experience W/ CSPD. please allow me me to share some of mine. The Colorado Constitution clearly states that any action not specifically prohibited by law is allowed. This is where our right to open carry comes from. I've had CSPD tell me OC isn't legal. Colorado Law clearly states that illegal concealed carry shall not be an offence if the actor is in his/her own home, business, or vehicle (IOW ) you can conceal a handgun in your car W/ out a permit. ) I've had CSPD tell me I needed a permit to even leave my home W/ a gun. Colorado law states It is unlawful to carry any weapon EXCEPT A HANDGUN W/ a round in the chamber......in a vehicle. Again I have been informed by CSPD that such is illegal. they've been known to tell people that they are legally required to inform & surrender their weapon during a traffic stop, no such law exists. Add to that the raking over the coals they tried to give Jean Assam & I think I could make a pretty good case for an institutional distrust of gun owners.