This R51 fiasco wasn't a single person making false statements, or even a small group, it is the result of a culture of deception. Remington has lost the confidence of its customers not just for this one firearm, but across the board. I'm not one for conspiracies, but the scope of this goes beyond mere incompetence.
The Remington R51, Explained
- Thread starter barnbwt
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lincen
Member
I've worked in manufacturing for 40 years, believe me, it is not all like the aerospace industry. You do the best you can with what you have and you can never tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.
Mman
Member
This is why people buy glocks and hondas. Quality management and proven reliable dependable products.
lincen
Member
Remington may be doing the "right thing" now but the time they have wasted in acknowledging a problem has caused permanent or at least long term damage to their already sinking reputation.
I've stated several times my reasons for buying an R51 and being made by Remington/Para was never a reason.
I've stated several times my reasons for buying an R51 and being made by Remington/Para was never a reason.
Gun Master
Member
Rename Title
I think this thread should be re-named, "The Birth, Short Life, and Death of the R51".
Sad. Many had high hopes that Remington could (would) save the R51.
I think this thread should be re-named, "The Birth, Short Life, and Death of the R51".
Sad. Many had high hopes that Remington could (would) save the R51.
JRH6856
Member
Let's wait a month or so and see how the resurrection goes...
JRH6856
Member
Meanwhile, mine is running fine. I'm going to be hard pressed deciding whether of not to send it in for exchange unless they make major improvements.
lincen
Member
My R51 had some problems early on but the last 200 rounds or so were trouble free. I did use mainly Remington 115gr. ammo. My main complaint was the difficulty in racking the slide. It did improve greatly but never to the ease that was advertised.
l sent mine back to Remington and can only hope the new R51 will be even better.
l sent mine back to Remington and can only hope the new R51 will be even better.
Gun Master
Member
We all join you in that hope.
Same here.
I am cashing out and presently waiting on a refund check.
Initially, I was so enamored with the R51 that I bought 2 – and both were basket cases of problems. Had either worked it would have been a huge game changer and without a doubt (for me) positioned the R51 as my go-to daily carry. Unfortunately, in my 30 years of enthusiastic firearms ownership and collecting, I have not come across a single other example of such a severely flawed piece of junk. The R51, in my mind, is unparalleled for the sheer number of major flaws that could be packed into a single mechanical thing. Any one of the serious problems I found with the R51 should have probably been enough for a major recall – and I find it incomprehensive that something so screwed up, in so many ways, could have ever made it out the door.
Regarding the refund, after long and careful consideration, I have determined that I have zero confidence that Remington can make this right. How can I believe that they will make an honest attempt at fixing the myriad of problems with the gun, when they cannot even produce what I consider to be an honest press release on the whole matter? From their claiming that the pre-production R51s were “flawless” (when more than one "expert" present at the R51 Gunsite launch acknowledged jams that day and again during their individual testing), to Remington’s constant repetition that the gun is "safe" (something I have a hard time believing with OOB discharges, severe primer flow, and guns locking up with live rounds that cannot be extracted due to bullet contact with rifling), to the fact that Freedom Group has doubled down that this is not a "recall" but rather an "exchange" – I just see nothing but a hollow, feckless, overdriven marketing and sales organization – NOT a competent firearm manufacture that has any business or aptitude for designing and producing well made, reliable guns.
My personal prognostication is that the R51 will be back in people’s hands sometime after (not during) October and that some but not all of the issues will be resolved. Once back on the market, I do not believe that Remington will address any further problems with the gun. I also believe that none of the other head scratchers – such as the abysmally designed magazine floor plate, which looks like it more appropriately belongs and child’s toy gun manufactured in China – will ever be addressed. I believe the guns will continue to exhibit some of the less severe issues, and I also think that they will start to show long term durability problems, primarily at the interface between the breach block and the frame.
In the end, despite millions invested, I see the product never taking off due to lingering concerns stemming from the initial launch. I see the R51 eventually getting killed off, or the design sold to another company. I give it about 1 more year (after the 2015 Shot Show) before the plug is pulled. At that point it will join the ranks with the Colt 2000.
For giggles, here is a short history (from Wikipedia) regarding the Colt 2000. I see obvious similarities between the Colt and the R51 already. When considering the 2000, how could a gun jointly designed between Reed Knight and Eugene Stoner ever have failed? But it did, once Colt got ahold of it. Apparently, the R51 had been designed by a great engineer at AAC and was then moved over to Remington for production. See any parallels?
Initially, I was so enamored with the R51 that I bought 2 – and both were basket cases of problems. Had either worked it would have been a huge game changer and without a doubt (for me) positioned the R51 as my go-to daily carry. Unfortunately, in my 30 years of enthusiastic firearms ownership and collecting, I have not come across a single other example of such a severely flawed piece of junk. The R51, in my mind, is unparalleled for the sheer number of major flaws that could be packed into a single mechanical thing. Any one of the serious problems I found with the R51 should have probably been enough for a major recall – and I find it incomprehensive that something so screwed up, in so many ways, could have ever made it out the door.
Regarding the refund, after long and careful consideration, I have determined that I have zero confidence that Remington can make this right. How can I believe that they will make an honest attempt at fixing the myriad of problems with the gun, when they cannot even produce what I consider to be an honest press release on the whole matter? From their claiming that the pre-production R51s were “flawless” (when more than one "expert" present at the R51 Gunsite launch acknowledged jams that day and again during their individual testing), to Remington’s constant repetition that the gun is "safe" (something I have a hard time believing with OOB discharges, severe primer flow, and guns locking up with live rounds that cannot be extracted due to bullet contact with rifling), to the fact that Freedom Group has doubled down that this is not a "recall" but rather an "exchange" – I just see nothing but a hollow, feckless, overdriven marketing and sales organization – NOT a competent firearm manufacture that has any business or aptitude for designing and producing well made, reliable guns.
My personal prognostication is that the R51 will be back in people’s hands sometime after (not during) October and that some but not all of the issues will be resolved. Once back on the market, I do not believe that Remington will address any further problems with the gun. I also believe that none of the other head scratchers – such as the abysmally designed magazine floor plate, which looks like it more appropriately belongs and child’s toy gun manufactured in China – will ever be addressed. I believe the guns will continue to exhibit some of the less severe issues, and I also think that they will start to show long term durability problems, primarily at the interface between the breach block and the frame.
In the end, despite millions invested, I see the product never taking off due to lingering concerns stemming from the initial launch. I see the R51 eventually getting killed off, or the design sold to another company. I give it about 1 more year (after the 2015 Shot Show) before the plug is pulled. At that point it will join the ranks with the Colt 2000.
For giggles, here is a short history (from Wikipedia) regarding the Colt 2000. I see obvious similarities between the Colt and the R51 already. When considering the 2000, how could a gun jointly designed between Reed Knight and Eugene Stoner ever have failed? But it did, once Colt got ahold of it. Apparently, the R51 had been designed by a great engineer at AAC and was then moved over to Remington for production. See any parallels?
Panzerschwein
member
So when is Remington's version II of this gun coming out?
I think there is still hope. Remember, the AR-15/M-16 didn't havea very good start at all, but look where it's at now.
I think there is still hope. Remember, the AR-15/M-16 didn't havea very good start at all, but look where it's at now.
JRH6856
Member
According to Remington, production is to resume in October.
And the initial reports from Gunsite were very good. There were a few problems, but the good:bad ratio really reversed itself when the production guns started coming out of Para. That is a pretty good indicator of where the problem was. With all ROC production being consolidated in a new facility, a soon-to-be-closed Para plant is out of the picture and they can get a fresh start and maybe do it right. Maybe it's because I have a gun that is functional enough for me to appreciate its good points, but I hope they do get it right. The design deserves a better fate than it has had so far.
And the initial reports from Gunsite were very good. There were a few problems, but the good:bad ratio really reversed itself when the production guns started coming out of Para. That is a pretty good indicator of where the problem was. With all ROC production being consolidated in a new facility, a soon-to-be-closed Para plant is out of the picture and they can get a fresh start and maybe do it right. Maybe it's because I have a gun that is functional enough for me to appreciate its good points, but I hope they do get it right. The design deserves a better fate than it has had so far.
Gun Master
Member
I wish them all the best.
They have a tough row to hoe.
They have a tough row to hoe.
To be clear at the outset, my issue in replying to the above is NOT to argue with the forum member, rather to take issue with Remington, and to ensure that what I feel is a correct representation of the matter is communicated.
Remington used the word “flawlessly” twice, in their 170 word July 25th “product update” on the R51. Specifically:
“During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly.”
“The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.”
The definition of the word flawlessly is as follows:
flawless [flaw-lis] adjective - having NO defects or faults,
Let's break this down. Remington used the word flawlessly twice – this wasn’t a mistake – they seemingly want to convey that the guns at Gunsite functioned without fail. For the R51 to be qualified as functioning “flawlessly” at the event, then all guns should have provided 100% reliability – i.e. having no “faults”. I don’t believe this is a word even open for debate given the relative low round count associate with the Gunsite R51 launch. So, If we think about it, the colloquial use of the word a “few” typically is used to represent 3-5. That could be extrapolated to be a 1% failure rate at Gunsite. Possibly low by some peoples estimations (not mine, not for a SD firearm), but certainly nowhere near “flawlessly” either. I base this on what Bryce Towsley stated he observed while in attendance at the Gunsite launch event.
Towsley stated in his article on the R51 that at the Gunsite launch there were 12 guns and 5000 rounds fired through them. He clearly states that “. . .near the end, we did see a few jams.” He attempts to explain this as an issue with wind, dust and the guns being dirty. Applying some basic math to the situation he described, there were about 416 rounds fired through each gun. For the sake of argument, let’s assume they were 90% of the way through the ammo at the time they started seeing “jams.” This would be around the 350-375 round mark. Personally, I don’t buy the “Gunsite” is a dirty a place excuse, and I am NOT impressed by guns that that start to malfunction with less than 400 rounds through them. Regardless, my opinion shouldn’t even matter hear because Remington said the guns functioned “FLAWLESSLY.” Therefore, there should have been ZERO “jams” reported for the day for Remington’s statement to reflect what was reported by Towsley.
In Jeff Quinn’s video on the R51 (at :47 seconds in) he states regarding the Gunsite launch of the R51 “there was a malfunction or two during that time, they were pre-production guns…” To be clear he doesn't specify whether this was for all guns, or just a couple - but I'm inclined to believe it means a malfunction or two per gun.
In Jeff Quinn’s Gunblast review of the R51, he reports problems with 2 different manufacturers of ammo – WCC and Buffalo Bore. Again, the gun is not reported to have functioned “flawlessly.”
So let me share this as well. I personally find Towsley’s, Quinn’s and Richard Mann’s articles, videos, comments to videos, and blog posts to all be quite generous to Remington. Further, all 3 were invited to the corporate junket, err R51 product launch at Gunsite. (Mann declined to go, choosing to hunt instead, with the other 2 attending) Two of these 3 (Quinn & Mann) were among the very first to report on and actually post Youtube video on the R51. Given that Towsley was invited to the launch as well, I believe that these 3 are among the “experts” cited by Remington in the product update. None of the 3 have stated that the guns ran “flawlessly” in what I’ve been able to find - contrary to the Remington statement.
I don’t see where anyone (aside from Remington marketing) has stated publically that the even the pre-production guns ran “flawlessly.” I find it disingenuous therefore that Remington would tell me (through their “product update” )that they would be providing me a gun that runs “flawlessly” when the ones they reference didn't even do so. I don't believe the guns ever ran "flawlessly" and I question Remington setting such a high bar given the failure they've had right out of the gate with this firearm.
1SOW
Member
"We'll see what develops."
That's the truth of the whole fiasco.
My new in the box 51 is said to be coming home next month. I was on the list early, so they (Reimington?) said I'd get one of the first available.
I'm crossing my fingers that this means carefully quality controlled to make sure there isn't isn't an immediate second fiasco.
I AM an optimist.
I AM an optimist.
I am an optimist?
That's the truth of the whole fiasco.
My new in the box 51 is said to be coming home next month. I was on the list early, so they (Reimington?) said I'd get one of the first available.
I'm crossing my fingers that this means carefully quality controlled to make sure there isn't isn't an immediate second fiasco.
I AM an optimist.
I AM an optimist.
I am an optimist?
Monac
Member
Deleted.
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JRH6856
Member
When it arrives please post a report. I'm holding off on exchanging mine until I am reasonable sure that what I get back will be better than what I now have.
And for 445gsd: flawless means without flaw, not without failure. Not all failures are due to flaws, and the reported failures did not appear to be associated with identifiable flaws.
Frank V
Member
I'm hoping they get it right too, I have some doubts. It took an awfully long time to get the Marlin fiasco sorted out & they lost a wonderful reputation. Some say it's still not sorted out.
Let's see, the Marlins, the triggers on the 700s (I'm not convinced it wasn't operator error) & now the R51???
They've got a LOT of sorting to do.
Let's see, the Marlins, the triggers on the 700s (I'm not convinced it wasn't operator error) & now the R51???
They've got a LOT of sorting to do.
Gun Master
Member
OP
OP
barnbwt
member
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Pansy Public Service Announcement
Okay, I may be about to sound like an oversensitive 'feely' for a minute, so bear with me;
I put this thread together to give a (then) thorough look at the internals of the R51, along with an explanation --derived as I went along-- of how everything worked inside the gun. For the benefit of both myself, as a curious tinkerer, and for others who are unfamiliar with the Pedersen action or the R51's incarnation of it. I worked fairly hard on the photo/text project at the front end of the thread (primarily for my own amusement, of course). I know this is a public forum/thread, so it's not like I'd play at claiming 'ownership' of the discussion, but I do somewhat resent seeing my efforts smothered by off-topic banter not having to do with the pistol.
It was not created to bash, denigrate, speculate, opine, or even report on the progress of the gun's sale or subsequent withdrawal for rework. It should not be closed, since I fully expect to post another teardown of the "new" R51 should the next batch prove to be superior or notably different from the first iteration. I don't deny the issues, I've weighed in on them at length; but my patience for deviating from the thread's purpose is getting stretched.
The thread has drifted considerably. Understandable, since there has been little else to speak about for six months besides how crappy the rollout is/Remington's bad customer service/how 'dishonest' a promoter's press release is about a troubled product (I assume you hold Don King to such high standards as well?).
But that does not change the fact that such discussion has nothing to do with EXPLAINING the R51. The purpose of the thread. If you care to give meaningful explanations as to why something works or does not work the way it does, or heck, even to toss up valuable info on how your gun was flat-out mismade or something, by all means speak up. If you have function questions or ideas about how stuff could be improved or expanded upon, for goodness' sake, spill the beans already!
If you want to gnash and weep about how a product you bought sight unseen based on early (and quite spotty, as I recall) reports didn't quite live up to your high standards ("flawless" is something even H&K wouldn't claim, and you think a gun worth two Hi Points should be held to the same, regardless what some PR hack says?), start a flame thread elsewhere about your CS experience or recall check or whatever. The properties of the check have no bearing on how the gun works (or am I missing something?)
Here's some good "What the H--- Happened to the R51?" threads such conversations would be right at home in;
Whatever Happen to the R51?
A Thread Specifically About the Recall Process
Hey, here's one with me ribbing the R51, just so you know I'm not a fanboy without humor, but just a devoted fan
I don't think there's been any actual gun related discussion here since page 5 or thereabouts. Please consider taking it up in another thread.
Thank you for looking over the thread and for your helpful or enlightening contributions regarding the function and construction of the Remington R51. This Pansy Service Announcement is now complete; thank you for your cooperation
Here's a jumping off point for someone; has anybody gotten the laser guard thingie for the gun, yet? How well does it work, how/how well does it attach?
TCB
Okay, I may be about to sound like an oversensitive 'feely' for a minute, so bear with me;
I put this thread together to give a (then) thorough look at the internals of the R51, along with an explanation --derived as I went along-- of how everything worked inside the gun. For the benefit of both myself, as a curious tinkerer, and for others who are unfamiliar with the Pedersen action or the R51's incarnation of it. I worked fairly hard on the photo/text project at the front end of the thread (primarily for my own amusement, of course). I know this is a public forum/thread, so it's not like I'd play at claiming 'ownership' of the discussion, but I do somewhat resent seeing my efforts smothered by off-topic banter not having to do with the pistol.
It was not created to bash, denigrate, speculate, opine, or even report on the progress of the gun's sale or subsequent withdrawal for rework. It should not be closed, since I fully expect to post another teardown of the "new" R51 should the next batch prove to be superior or notably different from the first iteration. I don't deny the issues, I've weighed in on them at length; but my patience for deviating from the thread's purpose is getting stretched.
The thread has drifted considerably. Understandable, since there has been little else to speak about for six months besides how crappy the rollout is/Remington's bad customer service/how 'dishonest' a promoter's press release is about a troubled product (I assume you hold Don King to such high standards as well?).
But that does not change the fact that such discussion has nothing to do with EXPLAINING the R51. The purpose of the thread. If you care to give meaningful explanations as to why something works or does not work the way it does, or heck, even to toss up valuable info on how your gun was flat-out mismade or something, by all means speak up. If you have function questions or ideas about how stuff could be improved or expanded upon, for goodness' sake, spill the beans already!
If you want to gnash and weep about how a product you bought sight unseen based on early (and quite spotty, as I recall) reports didn't quite live up to your high standards ("flawless" is something even H&K wouldn't claim, and you think a gun worth two Hi Points should be held to the same, regardless what some PR hack says?), start a flame thread elsewhere about your CS experience or recall check or whatever. The properties of the check have no bearing on how the gun works (or am I missing something?)
Here's some good "What the H--- Happened to the R51?" threads such conversations would be right at home in;
Whatever Happen to the R51?
A Thread Specifically About the Recall Process
Hey, here's one with me ribbing the R51, just so you know I'm not a fanboy without humor, but just a devoted fan
I don't think there's been any actual gun related discussion here since page 5 or thereabouts. Please consider taking it up in another thread.
Thank you for looking over the thread and for your helpful or enlightening contributions regarding the function and construction of the Remington R51. This Pansy Service Announcement is now complete; thank you for your cooperation
Here's a jumping off point for someone; has anybody gotten the laser guard thingie for the gun, yet? How well does it work, how/how well does it attach?
TCB
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