Weak points of the 1911

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Weak Point?

It is soo good, having such a long history of kickin' butt at CQB, won so many trophies, save so many lives that every other gun wants to be like it! Every gun person has to use it as a basis of comparison, the gun to beat.
All the developmental evolutions of ammunition and handguns have tried to get to the level of the .45 auto in stopping power, and the reliability of the 1911 in function.
A 1911 pro/con....tis so easy to repair and modify.....many a kitchen table 'gunsmith' will screw up what worked fine and then scream about its unreliability. Same applies for the ametuer reloader that blames his firearms when his crappy reloads are the culprit.
You cannot fault humans for being human...we always want to tinker and improve....so 1911's come in every size, material, double stacks, tack drivers, loose fitted trench guns, with all the doodad's or none. The little bullets have be improved in a attempt to give them more stopping power, guns like the Glock came to challenge the 1911 as the ultimate defensive hand tool(hey, it works pretty good, as does the Springfield XD I recently shot).
But the bonafide gunnut, wants many things...reliability and stopping power, for sure. The 1911 provides that. History and tradition too...a connection to the past and too the events that shaped history...the 1911 gives us a truckload of history. And we like to personalize our weapontry... and theyre are few(if any) handguns that can compare to the 1911's ability to be personalized and customized for nearly any concievable mission.
Weak Points? Not really, but no other gun can be as screwed up by a 'smith or the misuse by a ignorant operator.......so, if there is a weakness it is that it is no 'fool proof'. No machine is, cause a fool can screw up anything!!
Jercamp45
 
I think the best thing about the 1911 is its modular design. You can try different types of barrel bushings, triggers, and MSH's. Try that with any other pistol design. Internal extractor is one part and easy to remove. External extractors consist of 3 parts. And why would a plunger tube be any worse then a spring loaded detent behind a safety that can fly to who knows where when you remove it?

The neatest thing about 1911's is that they are easy to completely dis-assemble, and are there own toolbox! I also love CZ's but they are a PITA to totally take apart.

The only negative thing I can see about them is the amount of money some of them cost, and some folks being hesitant about using a SA.

In their most basic form, my experience has been that they are reliable and accurate, and more then amply provide the user with the tool needed to protect himself.
 
A possible weakness: No empirical evidence, but, I always thought the slide/frame interface might be a little weak for pistol whipping with the bbl, as compared to a heavy frame revo like a S&W "N" frame. So, I have opted for the muzzle eye poke when practicing with my .45 auto. Other than that, she's closet enough to perfect fer me. :D
 
Sean Smith:
I'd suggest that the real weaknesses of the 1911 were things like: tiny sights, a hammer/grip safety combination that can bite you, too-small thumb safety, and so forth.
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I'd have to agree with the above. You know its a keeper and a great design when you continually see threads like this every 30 days or so. If it were such a poor design, it would have died years ago. At the very least it would have been used only on shooting ranges and not in the mode for which it was originally designed.

Botton line...I'll keep my 1911's. What some see as weekness, I see as a strength.
 
Double Naught Spy, I do not think of the 1911 pattern as a "religious icon". I was just stating facts.

As far as the 1911 pattern being "his bastardchild with the US Military", I believe Browning was working with/for Colt's Patent Firearms Co. at that time. The government specifications stated what they wanted, not how it was to be accomplished.

If you want an external extractor on your pistol then get one. Just don't say that the internal extractor is a design flaw. The external extractor is hardly a new innovation. If the internal one was such a defect it could have been remedied 75 years ago.
I personally have noting against external extractors. When they are finally produced I will be considering purchasing a SIG GS (not a GSR). But not because of it's extractor.

The design weeknesses observed by the military were the hammer spur-grip tang ratio and the trigger reach issue.

As for the magazine being a weak link, does anyon here expect a magazine to be a lifelong commitment? Magazaines, especially on military weapons are a semi-expendable accessory at best.
 
Pistol Whippin'

BigG said:

always thought the slide/frame interface might be a little weak for pistol whipping with the bbl, as compared to a heavy frame revo

Simple enough. Get a MSH with the original lanyard loop. It makes for
a pretty wicked skull pommel. Pistol empty? Flip it over and grab it
by the front and bring the rear sight down on a noggin. The sight
will do the job pretty well, and the slide and frame won't be damaged.

Can anybody say OUCH?:D
 
Tuner, your always welcome posts continue to bust my gut. Thanks! :neener:

Re: The muzzle eye poke technique: This kata comes in as an interim move in my force escalation sequence. Before the pistole has been shot. Oncet it is shot dry, and the mayhem begins, I agree that the reverse pistol butt stroke can be very effective. :eek: All the best!
 
From a users standpoint, if there are weaknesses in the 1911 design, I would have to say it is the extractor and the hammer/grip safety.
I have put a lot of rounds down range with 1911s. The only part that stopped working was the extractor. I have been through several extractors on my main "go to" 1911. The thing is though, I don't know if this is better or worse than any other handgun design since I have never shot any other handgun design until it had problems. In other words, I have had that part fail on me, but it was only after more than 10k rounds or so. Would a better design of extractor have lasted beyond this point ? I don't know.
The problem with the hammer/grip safety for me is simply a matter of comfort. I can not shoot a 1911 without either a commander style hammer or a beavertail safety without bloodying my hand. The gun will run fine without it, but my hand suffers as a result.

I don't know how many rounds I have fired though one of my 1911s, but it is considerable. I am sure there are plenty of people who shoot more than I do, but not near as many as shoot less. The finish is wearing off in several places. But the gun just keeps running. New springs every couple years and the occasional extractor and I am a happy man.
 
Thank each of you for your different ideas. For the record, a full sized govt model is my favorite carry. It has been my favorite handgun since our Uncle Sam furnished my first one, 52 years ago. I recognize the strength and good points of he 1911, as well as some of the weaker points that has been mentioned in this thread. The 1911 does have some places that may can be improved upon, and some have been addressed by a few makers. But like someone said, most of the manufactors continue to sell 1911's that may fall a little short in a place or two- because we continue to buy them because of price or effective advertising and magazine articles or have someone to personlize the piece, or do it ourselves. A few noteable custom builders like Mr Vickers, have recognized that the stock 1911 from some makers have weak points, and some design features can be improved upon. We magnify the problem sometimes because we replace some good stock parts with an off of the shelf part that just doesn't fit the specs of the true 1911. Then some one hollers that the 1911 is undependable. All of my 1911's are the original factory specs, and I am happy that they are reliable. The 1911 has always been the best fighting handgun in my books, but lets face it------in the recent years, other makers have built handguns that may please some folks better than the 1911. It is good that we all have choices.
 
I would say a weak point is the dependance of having someone hand fit the guns. The lemon factor is higher than more modern weapons simply because there are more places in the manufacturing process for human error to rear its ugly head. That being said I love 1911's.
Pat
 
Something wierd is going on here, but I have to say that I totally agree with 355sigfan. The 1911's biggest weakness is that it was designed when modern mass production machinery was nonexistent or expensive and guys with files and a lot of spare time were plentiful and cheap. It doesn't translate well to a world of castings and stampings and MIM bits, having been designed around tediously machined bits of steel.

"All parts milled from forged tool steel" means "bucks-up custom gun" nowadays, when it used to mean "ordinary GI 1911"... :uhoh:
 
I'm not sure that 355SIGFan and Tamara's point about the lack of modern mass production friendliness is not a chimera. IIRC, interchangeable parts were pioneered by Eli Whitney and the subject was the Hall Rifle around eighteen-thirty-something. When the 45 was built, the USA contracted with Springfield Armory as a second source of the weapon. SA took some design drawings and tried to build guns from that; the trouble was, he actual guns did not reflect the design drawings but had been altered in some fashion. When SA made new drawings based on the Actual Colt Pistols that they studied the mystery of the unbuildable 1911 suddenly evaporated and SA began building pistols to standard.

What WAS different THEN from NOW was extremely competent observation by mechanically apt workers. I would say that if whatever company got a few colt pistols, made actual parts drawings and slavishly cloned them using correct materials they would come up with a good pistol, much as the Chinese reputedly did with their Norinco. What did they probably really do? Took some old public domain drawings, got a computer and optimized them. It still takes a human brain to come up with a bright idea; a computer can only sort data, imho. YMMV
 
It's the cheap, lazy, penny pinching manufactures who took it upon themselves to change the specification of the part that had made it a sometimes problem.
Click to expand...
And you know that how?

Expense and/or difficulty of manufacture is a design problem in its own right. If a part can't be manufactured in a way that's inexpensive, easy to produce, and easy to make without rework, it's going to cause problems sooner or later. If indeed the design were so flawless, why did Browing change it when he designed the HiPower?
 
From my personal experience with my Colt 1991A1, I'd have to say that the bullet/feed ramp contact is more than on my Sig and Beretta. Once the feed ramp starts to wear.... only ball ammo is reliable.
 
The only weakness in the design is that its single action. Which means it must be carried cocked and locked to be effective. Which means that a safety has to be removed and thereby interfers with the draw and fire process. Plus the grip safety especially on older models without the bump may not be disengaged during a quick draw, drop the safety, and fire process and therefore prevent the gun from firing when needed most.

I've seen top competitors forget to drop the safety during the stress of competition. Consequently, I think even well trained regular folks like myself might do that to.

I carried a LT wieght commander for years when I worked plainclothes and loved the gun. Now I carry a SIG 220 and think its a much better gun. Reliable with all ammo, more accurate than the commander, and quicker into action with its DA trigger pull. Personally, for cops I think the SIG 220 or Glock 21 with their straight draw and fire ability is the way to go.
 
If indeed the design were so flawless, why did Browing change it when he designed the HiPower?
Click to expand...
Somebody anybody, show me, prove to the world, that Browning himself originally indicated a preference on the external extractor on what became the P-35.

The P-35 aka High Power wasn't finalized until 9 (count 'em friends and neighbors) that's NINE (one less than ten) years after Browning died.
Browning only started the design.
 
The only weakness in the design is that its single action. Which means it must be carried cocked and locked to be effective.
END

Thats the best part of the 1911 its single action operation. Its the fastest gun into action. If someone is forgetting their safety they are practiced enough with that weapon. The reason the 1911 is so popular with special teams in leo and military circles is because of the cocked and locked capablity and the speed into action with a crisp trigger with minimal reset. Thats the same reason the 1911 dominates any competition where speed is a factor. As for the internal external extractor who cares. The internal one works but it is more difficult to adjust and manufacture. The external one also works. Personally so long as the gun does what its supposed to I could care less how the cases are extracted.
Pat
 
LMAO

From my personal experience with my Colt 1991A1, I'd have to say that the bullet/feed ramp contact is more than on my Sig and Beretta. Once the feed ramp starts to wear.... only ball ammo is reliable.

ROFLMAO! Lad, I've got 1911s that were built before the outbreak of WW1 that don't have worn feed ramps. I've rebuilt two of'em twice
each since the mid-70s because I shot'em slap to death and had to.
They feed everything I can find. Those two old warhorses have probably
burned a half-million rounds between'em since they were born.

I think maybe your 1991 Colt has other issues.


BluesBear said:

The P-35 aka High Power wasn't finalized until 9 (count 'em friends and neighbors) that's NINE (one less than ten) years after Browning died.
Browning only started the design.

Yeppers...and the original High-Power extractor was INTERNAL, similar to the 1911
-------------------------

The only weakness in the design is that its single action. Which means it must be carried cocked and locked to be effective.

R-O-T-F-L-M-M-F-A-O!!!!!
I ain't a top competetitor by the longest stretch, but I've never forgotten the safety. Missed it a time or three, but never forgot it. Practice, practice
practice.

...and finally:

Expense and/or difficulty of manufacture is a design problem in its own right. If a part can't be manufactured in a way that's inexpensive, easy to produce, and easy to make without rework, it's going to cause problems sooner or later.

It won't if it's made right the first time. How's a 70 year-old extractor that's
still in service sound? Same for the other small parts. As far as bein' a design flaw if it can't be produced out of pressed beer cans or recycled
chewing gum foil...I'll take the other route every time. Throwaway
weapons are just that, and not really worth the effort.

I'm really havin' me a large time with this thread.:D :D :D

Cheers!

Tuner
 
The only problem I have is is collecting my brass after shooting.

My original problems were a bad barrel, bulged chamber, on my Sistema and the teeny tiny sights. I got a new barrel that dropped in and a wide front sight installed and filed a square notch on the rear.

It has become one of my all-time haul arounds, along with my S&W 13 and 586.

Mine was made in 1953....
 
Like Tuner, I have pre-WW1 Colts that still have their original extractors and plunger tubes. On new Colts they can't keep the plunger tubes tight on brand-new guns to save their life. And the first thing a prudent person does with a new Kimber is ash-can the MIM extractor before it goes limp as a noodle.

I have said it many times, and I'll say it again. The problems/weaknesses/downfalls of 1911s are almost exclusive to new production guns, not the old ones.
 
the only problem with the 1911 is that NO ONE makes them the way they should be made ...
altho colts sure trying with their WW1 recreation...
give me an original prewar 1911 that hasn't been buggered and i'm happy ...
youse gwine done be can keeps all yo pimpguns ...
 
Somebody anybody, show me, prove to the world, that Browning himself originally indicated a preference on the external extractor on what became the P-35.
Click to expand...

Quite impossible since the Hi Power was originally DESIGNED, BUILT, AND SOLD WITH AN INTERNAL EXTRACTOR. The external came much later, and was put there by FN, not JMB.
 
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