Weak points of the 1911

[dsk]

Replacing a 1911A1 barrel in the field without tools and fixtures? Um, okay. I admit that I've only fitted one 1911 barrel thus far, but it required a vise, file, and a fair amount of fiddling and fitting. With a properly designed fixed-barrel pistol, the barrel can be swapped out by pulling a latch or driving out a couple of pins.

I just don't know where some of you guys are trying to go with this thread. A 1911A1 barrel swap takes exactly the amount of time you need to field strip it, and re-assemble it with the new barrel. If on the other hand you choose to carry a customized, accurized 1911 in the field with a hand-fit barrel, then yes it will take a gunsmith to replace the barrel with an identical one. But then again, what sort of idiot takes a hand-fitted gun out in the boondocks then expects it to be field-serviceable?

I think the main problem we have with the 1911 is that we've strayed WAY too far from the original military design. Just about all the complaints about tempermental weapons seems to involve non-military spec 1911s. I can keep any of my GI pistols running indefinitely with just a small bag of spare parts, and they never jam, cuss, moan, or refuse to earn their pay. I'm not saying there haven't been improvements over the years, but things like larger sights and beavertail safeties don't affect reliability. But this infatuation with super-tight 1911s that can put each shot in the same hole has gone way too far IMO. Keep them at the target range. Use a 1911 actually DESIGNED for fighting as a defensive piece.

 

[1911Tuner]

re: General Stuff

Well said Dana! Bravo! That reflects the points that I've been hollerin' about since I saw my first "Rooneygun" on the IPSC circuit. I stopped
shooting shortly afterward. Been a long time. Now that they've come up with IDPA, I'm too dang old to run and jump.

Chris, I appreciate your problems with the grip safety. Try Tamara's
suggestion. Another thing that might help is an arched mainspring housing. If forces the web of your hand more tightly into the curve
of the safety. I might also suggest that you lower your thumb a little.
If you have a problem with your thumb kicking the thumb safety on,
have a gunsmith fix it. A nudge shouldn't allow it to move.

Now...on that tire iron thing. If a crazed crackhead is 5 feet away,
moving toward you fast, and swinging a tire iron at you and you take the
time to line up the sights, those sights will probably be the last thing
you see on this side of the River Jordan. Since most shootings take place at ranges from arm's length to about 20 feet max...wouldn't it make sense to practice fast, point-shoulder shooting? I always include that as well as one-hand hip-level to shoulder-level snap shots at 5-6 feet. You'd be surprised at how well it works with just a little practice. Just draw, punch the gun straight out, and fire. Practice doing it while you backpedal too. This notion of getting the perfect grip, stance, sight alignment, and trigger pull can get you killed in the real world. Time is not on your side unless the ranges are greater than 15 feet or so, and several people can prove that
a man armed with a knife or bludgeon can close the gap to striking distance
from 20 feet in one second. Can you react, draw, align the sights, and begin the trigger pull in that span of time? I can't.

Understand, I'm not trying to be a jerk or start a flame war concerning your shooting discipline...Just trying to point out some realities. The age-old advice to "Train like you will likely have to fight" is sound...because it will
never go down the way you think it will. The distances and the time frames will be very short, and fractions of seconds will probably determine
who wins or loses.

Again, to echo what dsk stated...The biggest problem with modern 1911s AND their use is that they have been used for range toys for so long, it's what many people have come to expect. Tight clearances...Accuracy that
is measured in fractions of inches...Big, blocky sights that are easy to see,
but can hang up on clothing when the gun is presented from under a coat...
Textbook shooting stances when it's more likely that you'll be firing one-handed from waist level while fending off a knife or club with the other...
Things like that were born on the game circuit by game players. The 1911
autopistol was designed for killing in the real world where things rarely
go as planned. At five feet, a pistol that is capable of 1 inch accuracy
on a 50-yard range will do no better than a rattletrap WW2 Ithaca or
Rand that might keep its shots in a 10 inch circle at 25 on a good day.

Quote:

"The gamesman strives for the perfect "X". The practical marksman
hits what he must before it's too late." It's a matter of priorities.

Don't worry, be happy!

Tuner

 

[BigG]

fittin a bbl

Genuine Colt bbls drop in. You can get them in blue, nickel, or stainless and it takes as long to put one is as to strip the pistol, replace it, and your back in binness. Good luck!

 

[45auto]

For anyone that has "handled" an "army" 1911 in like new, non-rebuilt, form, how was the slide/ frame fit compared to todays common 1911's?

Compared to a Kimber, Colt or Springfield for example.

I realize there were many companies that produced 1911's over a time period, so "specs" probably were different, so it may be difficult. I've read "specs" before, but without feeling the slide fit it doesn't mean much to me.

Take care.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ramp Wear

Soda Pop's post has bothered me, and I put on my thinkin' cap in the wee
hours of the mornin', and the more I think about it, the more I think I may know where the idea came from.

Soda...is the top of your feed ramp rounded off and polished? Often,
a guy will read about a "Ramp'n'Throat job, and go at it without a full
understanding of the task at hand. Our smith will look at that sharp
edge at the top of the ramp and smooth it up with sandpaper or a Dremel,
not realizing that destroying that angle will cause the bullet nose to
impact the barrel throat at a lower point and push the barrel forward.
When the barrel is pushed forward, it pivots on the link/lug radius and
moves up in the same motion, and puts the round into stem bind.

Ball ammo, being a little longer, along with the ogive shape of the bullet,
doesn't hit the throat quite as low, and allows fairly reliable feeding.


If this is what has happened to your frame, it can be fixed if the angle hasn't been lowered/rounded more than just a little. I've run into this
pretty often.

Standin' by...

Tuner

 

[sm]

45auto
Best described as fitted right not tight.

I bow to the more experienced such as dsk, 1911 Tuner, Old Fuff, Mr Kennan, and others.

Deviation from original causes problems. I think this is how we got into this whole mess in the first place. We took a proven design and starting messin with for other applications.

I have no problems if a person needs to tweak the fit to hand, sights to eyes, etc. Messing with the "workings" is another deal.

Like taking a 4 door sedan, trying to make it : race 1/4 mi. on one weekend, round-n-round dirt track another, get 40 mpg on a road trip, be a 4wd for hunting, road rally car and still be a 4 door sedan. It ain't gonna be a do all -end all . Don't care if your put a Holley in place of a Carter carb, Put a Hurst, Eddlebrock, Monroe,and numbnuts dual exhaust bank of stickers on back glass.

 

[1911Tuner]

Old 45s Fit

45Auto asked:

For anyone that has "handled" an "army" 1911 in like new, non-rebuilt, form, how was the slide/ frame fit compared to todays common 1911's?

Better than you might suspect, with the WW2 era pistols being just a bit looser than the pre-war commercial and military pistols. The state of
emergency dictated that the clearances be loosened up a little to allow
unskilled hands to be trained to assemble pistols quickly.

I've had the opportunity to handle a commercial 1911, circa 1921 that was
blue worn but mechanically mint. I doubt if it had been fired more than 200 times. The slide to frame fit was exceptional, with barely any discernable motion horizontally or vertically. The barrel fit was tight, and the pistol
showed no signs of battering or peening anywhere. It belongs to my
step-father, and there's an interesting story behind it.

His uncle had died in his sleep, and his pistol had been put away by his aunt untouched. It lay in the attic in a shoe box, wrapped in a cloth
until his aunt's death in 1991. Her sister told my step-father that he
could have Uncle Will's pistol, and to come and get it.

He called me the same day, and told me to come have a look. When I got there, the gun was cocked and locked, in condition 1. I dropped the magazine and cleared the chamber. The bore looked good, and I got
curious. I reloaded the chamber with the round that I had removed...
from the magazine, of course...and went out back to try it. The pistol fired
all seven rounds and locked the slide on empty. Perfect.

The thing is that Uncle Will died in 1929 of a heart attack at age 35. The
gun laid in an attic for 62 years in condition 1, and it worked perfectly.

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Owen]

Lets not forget that the 1911 was a calvary pistol. It was intended to be fired from the back of a running horse. Could a soldier have even used the sights in those conditions?

owen

 

[SodaPop]

Soda...is the top of your feed ramp rounded off and polished?

Yes.

I am looking at the difference between my Mil-Spec Springfield 1911 and my Colt 1991A1. I did have the the barrel throat rounded off a little and feed ramp rounded off. After I got my Colt back from my smith a few years ago I put 250 Hydra shoks threw it and it worked fine. I just don't really think I need to bother carrying hollow points, though.

I had that done within the first 1000rds or so. That was about 12,000 rounds ago and my feed ramp has horizontal lines that I can feel with my finger tips. Its always been my understanding (learned at TFL) that a 1911 will work if the barrel is throated and the feed ramp is polished.

I realize I'm looking a lot closer than most people (maybe over analyzing) but I've see it on more 1911s than any other handgun. I'm talking guns that have been shot thousands and thousands of times. There is far more wear on my Colt barrel than there is on my Sig and Beretta. I shoot just about everything threw my Colt and not everything has worked. My Sig has over 20,000rds threw it and my Beretta has close to 15,000rds. My Colt works fine if I use Wilson's Combat mags but it won't feed SWC, FPJ or HP with the Colt 7rd and 8rd Factory mags. The Wilson's mags seem to help "play the angles" better.

 

[BluesBear]

Tamara,

It'll reduce your splits, trust me.

I usually use 250mm 112,000 gr Brunswick Groove Dynamic Reactive, full urethane jacketed ball ammo against pins.
I don't seem to get many splits.

 

[1911Tuner]

Horizontal Lines...

Soda Pop said:

I had that done within the first 1000rds or so. That was about 12,000 rounds ago and my feed ramp has horizontal lines that I can feel with my finger tips.

Okay....Tryin' to get a visual here. The lines may be tool marks,but have a look see if one lines up with a mag follower. Most smiths won't try to polish out all the tool marks if they're more than just a couple thousandths deep.

If your smith rounded the top of the feed ramp, he screwed the pooch.
The top of the barrel throat is okay...That's pretty much standard procedure
with a sharp edge there, but the top of the ramp guides the round higher up on the throat...and if that angle is lost or altered, it causes problems.

I can't figure how Hydra-Shoks could have damaged a steel frame...It just don't make sense, and even the front of the mag follower is a long shot unless it really gets rammed into the ramp hard. This is a problem more often seen on alloy-framed pistols, and even with those, it's usually the
follower that's doing the damage.

What kind of feed problems is the gun having? Round enter the chamber and stop...or does it hang up before it gets into the chamber at all?
After 10,000+ rounds, it may be a magazine spring issue. When they get
tired, sometimes the gun will do a Bolt-Over-Base feed...aka Rideover Feed.
Likewise if the top round in a full magazine nose-dives into the ramp and stops...That's most likely a magazine spring problem.

If the round hangs up before it gets into the chamber, check to see if
the bullet nose gets stuck right at the junction of the top of the ramp and the bottom of the barrel throat.

If it gets part-way in and hangs...check to see if there's a crescent-shaped
mark on the case just below the mouth. Telltale sign of stem bind.

Standin' by...

Tuner

 

[Brian Williams]

A good horse back rider has a fairly stable seat and a good shooter can do very well from the back of a horse.
The worst problem would be while doing a trot. While cantering or at a full gallop a good horseman is not moving up and down much. Somebody who has a great horse can do a lot while riding, Watch rodeo or any vid on quarter horses. I you ever get a chance to go to a SASS event where horses are they do some cool things



Tiny sights from the back of a horse quite possible. Wider sights while horseback definitaly doable.

 

[Sean Smith]

Then you need to choke up higher on the pistol. It'll reduce your splits, trust me.

Not if the grip safety doesn't work because of your technique.

 

[45auto]

Sean Smith:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not if the grip safety doesn't work because of your technique
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's why the grip safety shouldn't exist.

1911Tuner:

Interesting story. Also interesting on the tight(and right) slide/frame fit.

Take care.

 

[SodaPop]

What kind of feed problems is the gun having?

Like I said, I don't really shoot much other than ball ammo threw this. Last ammo time i had any malfuntions was with FPJ reloads. I tried all kinds of bullet seating depths and still couldn't get it to feed right. I've only had the GI Mil-Spec for about a month so I haven't really fed it much. If it feeds ball ammo fine then I'm not really worried about doing anymore alterations.

The lines may be tool marks,but have a look see if one lines up with a mag follower.

I see plenty of those.

 

[Tamara]

Sean Smith,

Not if the grip safety doesn't work because of your technique.

Mayhap the point of my post was too subtle...



("But a memory bump looks ugly and non-traditional!"
"Hey, if I found that hanging pink fuzzy dice from my front sight would let me shoot faster and more accurately, I'd be in the checkout line at Pep Boys right now." )

 

[fastbolt]

Weak points of the 1911

Generally, it's the operator, would be my guess ...

 

[Crownvicman]

I don't like the barrel bushing. It is a pain to remove on a new or tightly fitted gun. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Weaknesses of the 1911???

For me--and the reason I no longer own any of the several examples that I've purchased over the years---

1. Single action operation----having cocked pistol on my person is just not a good thing---I don't care how many safeties.

2. Excessive weight with the standard steel models----never tried a lightweight as they seemed too fragile.


Before I catch any grief----the Glock was retired for a Steyr M9--because of the safety----the M9 has now been set aside for my new Beretta 9000s---a true double action with a safety and fairly concealable size and weight---best of all worlds.

I'm still looking for a good lightweight revolver too.

 

[355sigfan]

Omaha-BeenGlockin
What you carry is your buisness. But rather a gun is safe or not is up to you. With any design if you keep your finger clear of the trigger until your ready to fire you will be fine.
Pat

 

[Correia]

"Beretta 9000s---a true double action with a safety and fairly concealable size and weight---best of all worlds."

Yep, best of all worlds, heavy long trigger pull plus getting to switch after your first shot to a long spongy but lighter trigger pull, and the added bonus that it is really fat.

 

[Trigger]

Plunger tube? No problem...silver solder. Internal extractor...no problems, just tune correctly. Weakest point? Trigger puller usually.

 

[BigG]

I think the weakest point is people expecting it to be "all things to all people." It was built to win a military contract. People adapted it to other uses after it proved itself on the battlefield. Why did they adapt it? First because it was cheap, and available. The NRA sponsored the distribution of a bunch of 1911A1s for about $20 each back in the 1960s, IIRC. Now, its a monkey see, monkey do kind of thing. Everybody wants one!

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Crownvicman said:

I don't like the barrel bushing. It is a pain to remove on a new or tightly fitted gun.

Well, there ya go! The bushing ain't s'posed ta be that tight. (If ya can't
turn it without a tool, it's too tight.) Tightly fitted ain't always the best route to take. This notion that a 1911 pistol has to be capable of match accuracy in order to be a viable fighting tool comes from gun rag writers
who get a freebie once a month, methinks...

Besides, that wrench-dependent bushing can be addressed in 3 minutes with a bushing wrench and about a penny's worth of 5 micron lapping compound.
-----------------------------

dsk asked:

But then again, what sort of idiot takes a hand-fitted gun out in the boondocks then expects it to be field-serviceable?

I dunno Dana...Maybe one that hasn't really given full thought to the matter?
--------------------------



Been Glockin' said:

Excessive weight with the standard steel models

No no! One of the advantages of the steel-framed 1911 is that if
you're outta ammo, and your fight has gone to up close and personal, you can beat the hell out of him with it. Kinda like the advantage that the
Garand has over the M-16...See? It's all in how ya look at it.

Alloy frames fragile? I've got an older LW Commander that's probably seen
30,000 rounds. I put it in semi-retirement a few years back...right after
the Series 80s hit the shops
-------------------------------

This one's gettin' to be fun.

Be of good cheer now...Y'hear?

 

[Sean Smith]

Mayhap the point of my post was too subtle...

Not likely.

Just giving you a hard time.

As for traditional... I dunno. I don't think obese bull barrels with gain-twist rifling are exactly "traditional" either. Or 10mm caliber anything. Or electroplated finishes. Or sights that you can actually see. Or internally lightened aluminum triggers. Or lots of other fun things my 1911 has...