Weak points of the 1911

[Haycreek]

Some will agree, that two weak design points with the typical 1911, is the "plunger tube" and the "internal extractor". Some newer models now have an external extractor, but what 1911's now have improved or eliminated the "plunger tube" ? Your comments please !

 

[BluesBear]

The internal extractor is NOT a weak design point.
As John Browning designed it it works great.

It's the cheap, lazy, penny pinching manufactures who took it upon themselves to change the specification of the part that had made it a sometimes problem.

If the plunger tube is properly staked in place it also works fine. Notice how the original grips were made to partially cover the plunger tube and protect it.

 

[Chupacabra]

Weak points of the 1911

Uhhhhh...

I can't think of any.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the internal extractor gives the 1911 a very sleek look, much as it did in the original p-35 (browning hi-power), but the external extractor is a definate functional improvement. without even mentioning it's reduced cost and self adjustablility, it is more resistant to breakage during malfunction (FTExtract) drills.

i've always felt that the weakest points of the 1911 design were the barrel link and the barrel bushing.

1. the link is an overly complicated design as demonstrated by follow on designs such as the p-35, smith m-39

2. the bushingi is easily eliminated by simply drilling the hole in the slide at an angle as in the sig sauer line

 

[9x19]

And yet, all of those things mentioned are continuing to provide service on my USGI Colt 1911... built in 1914! Just exactly how many years does it take for these things to show themselves as weak points?

Caspian has taken to relieving their frame a bit where the plunger tube mounts, claiming that the minute groove they make adds more stability and support to the tube. Whatever...

 

[9mmepiphany]

the colt SAA also comtinues to provide service, but i think most would agree that it's left handed loading gate is a weak point compared to the swing out cylinder of the smith m-10 to say nothing of the detachable magazine of the semi-auto pistol

 

[jhisaac1]

BLASPHEMER!!!

 

[tc300mag1]

I like the left handed loading gate on SAA couse could be cause im left handed as for weekness od 1911 i think the only ones are the people building them using sub quailty parts

 

[BluesBear]

You hold a SAA in your left hand and insert the cartridges with your right.

Most right handed people have more dexterity in their right hand. The loading gate on the right side enables a person to load with the hand with the best fine motor skills. The left hand cradles the gun and strokes the ejector rod. Both of which are gross motor skills.

Much the same way that the left hand grabs the swing out cylinder on DA revolvers so the right hand is free to load.

 

[1911Tuner]

Weak Points?

though I wouldn't call them weak points, the most trouble-prone
points are: The magazine, the extractor, and the ammuniton. If all
three are good, about 99% of the functional problems with the
1911 pattern pistol would be non-existent.

Most feed-related problems can be cured with a good magazine and
correct extractor set-up. Ammunition that is in-spec...both as to external
dimensions and internal ballistics, will do a lot to insure reliability.
HINT: Lightweight screamers and +p pressures don't help things none.

The real weak point is that the current manufacturers of the design
don't use good materials and tight quality control standards during the
process. They know that they're basically building a toy, and that
pistoleers who are both serious and knowledgeable will upgrade their
pistols at whatever the cost.

The 1911 is one of the most rugged designs to come down the pike, and will withstand a lot of rough handling, but outright abuse will degrade the reliability of any pistol. Take that one to the bank.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Delmar]

Well spoken, Tuner.

I know some see the internal extactor as being a weak point, and the cause is not the design.

I'll keep mine internal. Have a near 20 year old early Series 80-back when Colts were "crap" (whatever ) and still ticking after 100K + rounds on the original extractor and barrel. And its taken loads from the lightweight screamers to the +P, back a few years when I thought you had to firewall the load to make it work.

When you consider the way the pistol is designed, it is a purely modular constuction, designed to stay in service with routine rebuilding.

Bushing wear? Replace it-cheaper than changing out the slide.

Link wear? Tap out a pin and put in a new one.

Plunger tube? Protected by the grip, but is not rocket science to replace with the correct tools.

Mags? If the spring/follower is bad, chuck em and put in new.

 

[Sarge111]

Actually, it only has ONE "weak point"-

It ain't a Sig 220- but like so many things about the 1911, it has an "easy fix". Just take 200 bucks and your old '11 down to the local gun shop, and come away happy. It'll probably be the best $200 you'll ever spend toward making a 1911 both trouble free, and accurate.

I drug those things around for a long time, and out of a dozen or so I owned and/or was issued, there were two that actually worked with any degree of certainty, and shot pretty well. Only one of those two (a 1991 Commander) never jammed with new ammo. I probably should have kept that one, just for nostaglia if nothing else.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Wow Sarge, that is great. Just what the heck are you suggesting we give away $200 for that is supposed to be fixed on a 1911 that will make it accurate and reliable? You forgot that tidbit.

FYI, by design, the 1911 is a pretty darn accurate gun, so I am really interested in known what will make it reliable and more accurate.


BluesBear, yes, JMB designed it and yes it does have weak points including the plunger and extractor. Don't fret too much. That is just the way it is. Those are problem areas on the gun that are some of the more likely to break or be troublesome. Both can be improved. Just because JMB worked on the gun does not make it some sort of religious icon beyond improvement. Remember, the 1911 is not his masterpiece, but his bastardchild with the US Military. There are lots of things on the 1911 that JMB would not and did not think were appropriate, but the wages were being paid by the military.

Haycreek, as noted, one of the most problematic areas has been the magazine. JMB might have been a genius, but the magazine has always been a source of potential issues he was not responsible for what contractors did after the designs went into production. As far as the design of the whole package, the magazine is probably the worst part of the gun. This has largely been rectified by some improved magazine versions such as by Wilson and McCormick on a broad scale basis.

 

[stans]

The weak points in the 1911 were the Colt Series 70 collet bushing- the fingers would break off the bushing if the barrel was incorrectly fitted. The other weak point is the substitution of MIM or cast parts. The internal extractor works well when properly adjusted and made of spring steel.

 

[Sarge111]

Actually, DNS...

I was suggesting that if you really need an accurate and utterly reliable .45 auto, you might be better off spending $200 toward a better design. I loved the 1911 despite it's fleas (still do), but Sig will be getting my "45 auto money" from now on. Just my solution to the problem, and I wish somebody would have talked me into trying one of these 15 years ago.

When hardball was THE .45 ACP load, the '11 was THE gun. I woudn't feel naked with either, so long as I knew the gun was reliable. I just think the odds of getting a reliable Sig are a lot better than those of getting a reliable 1911- based on about 20 years of fiddling with the latter. I've owned way too many 1911's to say anybody is 'dumb' for trying one, and I didn't mean any particular offense. Just trying to illustrate a point.

 

[BigG]

When I was a younger man, I had a pal whose dad worked for a major firm, GE, whose job as an engineer was to cheapen a product once it had been rolled out to the point where it would last out the warrantee period but not much longer. The kid's dad finally lost it and quit and left the family and I lost track but don't think the bean counters are not staying up nights trying to find how to save the next two cents.

 

[Soap]

The real weak point is that the current manufacturers of the design
don't use good materials and tight quality control standards during the
process. They know that they're basically building a toy, and that
pistoleers who are both serious and knowledgeable will upgrade their
pistols at whatever the cost.

Exactly.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

The only weak point of the 1911 I can find is that they tend to muliply in the gun safe.

ZM

 

[Slowhand]

The 1911 does have some weak points, but then so does every firearm. That said, I love 1911s, they are all I use for IDPA and for carry, and I am always looking to add more to the collection. They are the perfect gun for me. Back to the topic, my KZ-45 has some neat things about it. The plunger tube is part of the molded polymer frame, so it can't come off, and the ejector is actually machined right into the stainless insert inside the frame, so it can't come off either. It also has an external extractor. I don't really care one way or another, so long as the gun is reliable, but it is cool that Wilson put some thought into it and tried to address these common beefs. I like my KZ- I don't know if I'd call it a true 1911, but it is a nice gun and a good shooter.

 

[45auto]

The weakest design point of the 1911, IMHO, is the grip safety.

Unless you are bouncing around on a horse without the manual safety on with a heavy steel trigger, I am at a loss at the "real" world function of that kind of safety. I'm sure someone could think of a situation where it would help, but I'm curious.

It does, however, prevent many people from firing a 1911 due to grip style, hand size, etc and provide sharp edges if not properly designed/blended and it leaves some good sized openings for dirt to get into it.
Other than that... it's okay.

When Para, innovative company at least, introduced a double action, manual safety, series 80 LDA and still included a grip safety, I knew it was a "lost cause" for a grip safetyLESS 1911. Oh well.

 

[Sean Smith]

Funny how the internal extractor is a weakness for the 1911, but not the SigSauer P226, P228 or P220. Maybe Sigarms is smart enough to not go cheap on a vital part of the gun, and so it works? What an idea!

Of course, the SigSauer P-series guns have plenty of shortcuts to make them cheaper. Sigarms was just smarter about HOW they took shortcuts, and where they did and didn't take them, than some current 1911 makers.

I'd suggest that the real weaknesses of the 1911 were things like: tiny sights, a hammer/grip safety combination that can bite you, too-small thumb safety, and so forth.

 

[scalinghammer]

THe weak points are not very weak in my opinion. But..

The plunger tube on a SVI or STI in built into the fame and is one piece with the frame.

The internal extactor - a case can be made for the external extractor but the internal works OK for me. The internal extract costs more to get right and is more likely to quit if fooled with but it has the advantage of no external parts to get dirt into and it looks better.

The bushing can be a small problem. That can "solved" by using a coned barrel. There is no bushing then.

I like and use most of these "fixes" you don't need them but if you want them they are there.
Ed

 

[Kaylee]

near as I can tell, the internal extractor on an 1911 functions more or less the same way as that on a Mauser or pre-64 Winchester (long spring steel extractor and controlled cartridge feed) while the external extractors with their lever and "Bic pen spring" arrangement is more akin to the later push-feed rifles that supposedly aren't reliable enough for hunting critters that hunt you.

Why a given idea is a "weak point" in a self defense pistol but I keep hearing that it's de rigeur on a dangerous game rifle I'll never know.

-K

 

[BigG]

Kaylee: You gotta stop talking like that. You're making too much sense! This is a gun discussion!

 

[Rambosky]

Weak points of the 1911 ? The operator?