What exactly is a "truck gun?"

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Do you have any numbers to back up your guesses?
For your theory to work we have to assume that the only guns that are stolen from cars are those that are "routinely" left in cars and that all theft is from locked cars.

Two thing we should know aren't true.

Look I agree that leaving a gun in an unlocked car out on the street isn't responsible any more than leaving one on your porch, but to say leaving one in a locked car with an alarm under motion lights with a dog thats a light sleeper is irresponsible is quite a stretch.
 
Do you have any numbers to back up your guesses?
You just gave me some. :)

Actually, I have nothing more than the numbers you have. I simply don't think there are numbers collected and analyzed that could answer this, but anecdote and reports from cops, criminals, and each other all point to the unreasonable vulnerability of guns left in cars.

And my contention throughout this and other threads is that it is a risk factor we can, and should, work to lower. That there are reasonable other ways to accomplish being armed in public, that guns left in trunks, under seats, and wherever else just "always" don't represent a realistic way to address the need for a defensive weapon -- almost ever -- and that the cost-benefit analysis does not favor the concept of a "truck gun."

And, of course, that gunny folks don't want to THINK about it. Thinking critically about our habits tends to make us gunny folks very uncomfortable and angry. As though serious analysis which might lead us to not do something is equivalent to "the gooberment" or the UN coming in and taking away our rights.

I HATE that kind of blinkered, reactionary thinking that says we can't make good decisions because making good decisions, or even TALKING about them in real terms is somehow showing weakness to the antis or giving up our rights.

For your theory to work we have to assume that the only guns that are stolen from cars are those that are "routinely" left in cars and that all theft is from locked cars.
Actually it doesn't. We don't have enough information to make anything but GROSSLY general statements, and even when I strip it down to the most generously favorable interpretation of the numbers you gave me, we come out WAAAAY on the "against" side.

Was the gun left "routinely" or just that one time? We can't say, but that argument works against your point because a gun left "occasionally" would have fewer total chances to be intercepted by a thief. So any that were stolen on "just that one day" someone left their gun in the car would simply be statistical outliers putting more nails in the coffin of this argument.

Locked or unlocked? What does it matter? Are you really going to argue that guns left in cars that are unlocked are statistically different from guns left in locked cars? Why in heaven's name would that be so?


Look I agree that leaving a gun in an unlocked car out on the street isn't responsible any more than leaving one on your porch, but to say leaving one in a locked car with an alarm under motion lights with a dog thats a light sleeper is irresponsible is quite a stretch.
And I never said any such thing. In fact, I've pointed out that there are times and situations where leaving a gun in a car is really the best we can do. And times and places where your car or truck might be just as well defended/secured as your house, or nearly so. And times and situations where a gun left in a vehicle routinely is a VERY reasonable and responsible thing to do.

But I contend that those are far less common situations than "we" are willing to believe. And when "truck gun" or "car gun" or "trunk gun" is mentioned, it is very rarely in the context of intelligently balanced analysis of need, utility, and security.
 
Sam,
I'm done here I can't argue with somebody that can't stay on one side of the fence.

SAM1911 said:
Saying that anything left in your car is even remotely as secure is foolish.

the same SAM1911 said:
And times and places where your car or truck might be just as well defended/secured as your house, or nearly so.
 
That would be because I'm not arguing with you and I'm not "on one side of the fence," in the sense of taking a side in a fight. I think you've misunderstood my points and my position from the start and have been arguing instead of listening.


SAM1911 said:
Saying that anything left in your car is even remotely as secure is foolish.

the same SAM1911 said:
And times and places where your car or truck might be just as well defended/secured as your house, or nearly so.
Those aren't contradictory statements, in context. Of course you COULD make your car even more secure than your house. You could park your car in a concrete-walled courtyard topped with concertina wire. You could park your car inside a high fenced yard with a pack of aggressive dogs roaming inside. You could have an alarm and high-security locks on your vehicle, and keep a gun in a lock box bolted to the floor. But that's not how most gun owners SAY they handle the vehicle gun situation and/or it sure doesn't cover them when they're parked while out and about. (Yes, the lock box helps...unless they just steal the whole car! Not too many people can say anyone stole their whole HOUSE. LOTS of people find their cars stolen.)

The typical car gun thread runs about like this: "I'm worried that sometimes my wife forgets her carry gun and I want to pick a good gun for her to just leave in the car all the time." Or just "what's a good 'truck gun' that I can leave behind the seat of my pickup for 'just because?'" I contend that those are too casual, too un-examined, ideas and they increase the risk of firearms theft without very smart, thoughtful, insight into the goal of this "always/just because" gun and other equally effective ways we might meet those needs without the increased theft risk.
 
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This thread has proven to me that Sam1911 is nothing but a troll.

That's fine, people are allowed to voice their opinions (even people that refuse to use logic and reason), but it's sad that this person is a moderator on a gun forum when clearly he/she has nothing but disdain for gun owners.
 
:) Ok then. I'll let the rather substantial quantity of things I've written about guns, gun ownership, RKBA and related topics here stand as my witness and everyone can judge your critique for themselves.

If you'd care to do so, I would welcome your thoughts (I already asked you for statistics) as to why any of the points I've made are not reasonable or logical. Reading back over the thread you don't seem to have tried to construct an opposing position or counter any of the points or suggestions I've made. If you have something to contribute to the discussion, please feel free to do so.

However, if you want to berate me further I would ask you to take it to Private Message.
 
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I don't leave anything in my car that I'm going to cry about losing all that much. Stuff gets stolen. The alarm is there and you'd really have to know where to look to find it but after you steal my truck and take it to the chop shop you'll have plenty of time. Guns get stolen. It sucks but I still leave a AR under the back seat.The ATF gets a call telling them to take it off the registry , the cops get called to report it stolen and my insurance company gets a call.
 
After reading all 7 pages of post I have come to the conclusion that a lot of folks including myself have a truck gun and mine can be seen on the top of page 3. I have had one, in one form or another since around 1987. I will admit it has not always been a rifle and I do not always leave it in the truck at night it depends on my location and situational awareness.

I have also come to the conclusion that Sam1911 has no need for one and gives the impression that we should have no need for one because the risk is too high that it might get stolen and used in a bad way. His opinion is fine with me, because Sam1911 has that right to that opinion and I do not want to take it from her/him.

I guess what it comes down to is I do not know any of you and you do not know me. You do not know my background, training, where I live, where I have lived, my day to day routine and how I operate other than the from a few posts on this site and maybe some others sites I play on so you do not know how I formed my opinion. You also do not know how much thought that I or any other person has put into what they do in their lives.

So for me on this subject I personally will take the chance that my truck gun might get stolen (key word might) over not having it when I might need it. I have weighed the pros and cons and for me it is a no brainer my truck gun stays in the truck. If you do not want one, then do not have one it’s that simple. We all have the right to state our opinion on any subject but no one hast the right to lecture me on it.

Also as far as stats go, Stats can be manipulated any way you want to fit your needs. They say numbers do not lie but they also do not tell the whole truth either, like 31000 gun deaths, yes that is true but 2/3 are suicide and guess what suicide is not illegal in any state and has not been since the 90s.

It is based more on a morality issues than on law and was only illegal in a few states for the most part. I do not agree with it and I feel it is a chicken way to go but if it is not illegal then how is it violence? How can it be counted as a gun problem? So if I OD is that considered drug violence?

This works the same with theft and theft stats. If we want to play the game here is one for you. It was about 3 years ago my neighbor got his car stolen from his church parking lot then about 20 minutes later the purp ran a red light hitting a car with a family of three. The driver was in the hospital for a month the other two overnight. So what did more damage the car or the Mini 14 and his 9mm in the locked trunk?

Now we can play the “what if game”!

What if he got the guns would he have killed someone or have robbed a liquor store?

The police found the 16 year old kid had no previous record and was just on a joy ride after a buddy taught him how to steal the car. He wanted to see if he could really do it and was going to leave the car in a shopping mall lot.

Yes he could have been lying because he was in fact the bad guy.

I do not know if they were able to but they were trying to get the kid on a weapons charge even though he says he did not know the guns were in the car when he stole it.

So I will agree that bad things can happen and that bad people can steal guns and do bad things. They can also steal cars and do bad things and at this point we are back to the “what if game”.

I guess what I am trying to say is I do not want to be told by anti-gun folks that I do not need a gun or what gun I can have and I do not want to be lectured by pro-gun folks on how I carry a gun or where.

So, on this subject we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Those aren't contradictory statements, in context.
Yes, they most certainly are. Just stop please.
They only seem contradictory if a) you didn't read most of what I wrote, or didn't really stop and think about it, and/or b) you're looking for points to argue over.
 
They only seem contradictory if

No, they are in direct contradiction.

All the political BS in the world isn't going to work and as to who wants to argue I asked you to stop.
 
I have also come to the conclusion that Sam1911 has no need for one and gives the impression that we should have no need for one because the risk is too high that it might get stolen and used in a bad way. His opinion is fine with me, because Sam1911 has that right to that opinion and I do not want to take it from her/him.
Then you should read again, more carefully. I don't usually have a reason to have a "truck gun". That is true. I have asked others to admit or recognize that the risk of theft is unpleasantly high for guns left in vehicles and that gun theft is indeed a bad thing that we can and should take steps to reduce or prevent when we can. And I've called on "us" to honestly discuss and analyze (at least privately, among ourselves if no one else) why they feel a need to keep a gun in a vehicle and whether that perceived need is present and realistic ENOUGH that it overweighs the risks of and the stakes involved with stolen firearms.

So for me on this subject I personally will take the chance that my truck gun might get stolen (key word might) over not having it when I might need it. I have weighed the pros and cons and for me it is a no brainer my truck gun stays in the truck.
And if you have clear and present reasons for why you need a gun in your truck at all times, by all means keep one there. If you take decent precautions to reduce how vulnerable that firearm is to being stolen, wonderful! My hat is off to you sir, that's good.

If those are true for you, then you are probably not "the problem" I'm addressing. Your truck gun is a balanced, reasoned choice, not a casual, unthoughtful, unexamined choice.

If you do not want one, then do not have one it’s that simple. We all have the right to state our opinion on any subject but no one hast the right to lecture me on it.
I certainly can't tie anyone down and "lecture" them. I can, however, post my ideas, supporting material, analysis, and opinions. You are free to read them or not read them. I promise not to come to your house and force you to listen to anything I say. :)

This works the same with theft and theft stats. If we want to play the game here is one for you. It was about 3 years ago my neighbor got his car stolen from his church parking lot then about 20 minutes later the purp ran a red light hitting a car with a family of three. The driver was in the hospital for a month the other two overnight. So what did more damage the car or the Mini 14 and his 9mm in the locked trunk?
That actually says nothing at all about stats, or the relative risks of firearm theft. That's just an anecdote of one thing that happened. I also know one guy who left a gun in a car one time and nothing happened to it. What would we conclude from that?

So I will agree that bad things can happen and that bad people can steal guns and do bad things. They can also steal cars and do bad things and at this point we are back to the “what if game”.
The NRA has a program called "Refuse to be a Victim." That's just playing the "what if game" too. All of us play the "what if game." For some the game is just re-titled the "won't happen to me" game.

I guess what I am trying to say is I do not want to be told by anti-gun folks that I do not need a gun or what gun I can have and I do not want to be lectured by pro-gun folks on how I carry a gun or where.
No one does. Unfortunately, as I said before, trying to get gun folks to talk about almost anything related to security and costs-vs.-benefits makes us uncomfortable. If our habits and choices are responsible and well thought-out, we should not fear discussing them and presenting our reasoning.

So, on this subject we will have to agree to disagree.
That's usually where these (and many other) debates end up. But hopefully there's a useful collection of arguments for and against the subject such that others who come along and read these threads can and will evaluate their own situations, consider logical trains of thought they hadn't explored before, and make informed choices.
 
They only seem contradictory if

No, they are in direct contradiction.

All the political BS in the world isn't going to work
Political BS? What are you talking about? Good grief.

and as to who wants to argue I asked you to stop.
It doesn't quite work that way. You asking me to stop is not a rebuttal nor a persuasive argument. Not to put too fine a point on it, but one does not simply get to tell another to stop talking. You could persuade me, you could convince me, you could ignore me, you could stop reading this thread, but you cannot simply tell me to stop talking.
 
Political BS? What are you talking about? Good grief.
For the love of god we were talking about guns left in vehicles on page 7 just like we were on pages 1 thru 6 trying to say "in context" is nothing other that a politicle smoke screen either it's foolish to think it's even remotly as secure or it's possible to be just as secure.

I said please stop for your sake not mine
 
Do you know the meaning of the world "political?" It seems out of place where you're using it.


"In context" means: "Read the entire paragraph or post I wrote so you understand what I was referring to. Don't just cherry pick five or six words that you think will contradict something else I said and then present them by themselves as if they conveyed the entire meaning of my statement."

I don't write in sound-bite chunks, though you seem to be trying very hard to comprehend only (highly selective) sound bite chunks of what I've said.

I said please stop for your sake not mine
Having observed what you choose to present as supporting evidence for your positions and the aplomb with which you present your case, and your reliance on silly argument tricks to try to "win" -- while I do sincerely appreciate your concern for my well-being -- I really don't feel I need your advice on this subject.
 
I quoted complete sentences I't not my fault you contradict yourself.
Having observed what you choose to present as supporting evidence for your positions
Ok then let's just look at what your silly interpatation says.
My gun is one of 100,000 routinly kept in cars, as you say on the low side 15,000 guns are stolen each year out of cars, I've been doing this for more than 20 years so on the low side I should have had at least 3 guns stolen.
Now I also know another dozen friends and family that routinely keep guns in their cars also. That makes 39 guns that should have been stolen from our cars and the real # is zero. I guess there could be some poor soul that's had 42 guns stolen from his car to even things out a bit, but I'd rather just say you're probably wrong;)
 
I have no paper to back my claims, so that is out of the way to begin with.

Back in 1979 the Florida Highway Patrol estimated, based on their stops that one in three florida tagged cars had a gun in it. This number came up in a Law Enforcement class I was taking at that time and the number was given in class by a high ranking member of the FHP.

Skip forward a decade and I worked for Four H and Other Youth Resources and Rural Development at University of Florid. we did a state wide survey with a sample size of around 10.000 and one question was whether ther were firearms in the home.

Just over a third of those responding admitted to at least one firearm in the home.

At face value it would seem guns stored at home and guns in cars seem about equal.....

BUT,

There was no data from FHP as to how many of those 33 percent of Florida drivers LEAVE their guns in cars.

Also I immediately questioned our results on the 4H survey. I used the original mailing list to find a few folks out in the counties I knew that were surveyed. No proof one way or another initially whether they responded. What I found was an attitude of "It ain't no body's business whether I have a gun or not" Of the five folks I question all told me they had responded and all said they responded "no".....and they all owned firearms kept in their homes.

For reasons like this I find all surveys suspect.

I don't know how many times I have had someone insist they would not have guns in their home only to discover the .22 rifle behind the umbrella stand or the single shot shotgun in the coat closet.

I honestly think we have NO IDEA what percentage of people have what or where......as it should be.

-kBob
 
Well this thread sure went to places I never expected. But since it has, I agree with Sam. Yes we have a right to bear arms. But to me that right also has responsibilities. One of those as to make sure our guns do not fall into the wrong hands, be they kids or criminals.
The careless attitude of many on this thread "What do I care if my gun gets stolen? I have insurance." shocks me.
You put a stolen gun on the street. Because you're too lazy to carry your gun in the house?
 
I'm going to make the call here to close this one. 167 posts of folks explaining why they this this is a habit to be avoided whenever possible, or why they think it is no big deal at all and the responsibility lies elsewhere. The OP's final reply is as good a note to close on as we're likely to get.

I don't think another cycle of folks circling each other is going to change anyone else's mind. Let's put it to bed until next time.



If anyone feels they didn't get the chance to fully explain their position or defend their choices, please PM me and I'll consider opening it up again.
 
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