What percentage of CCW holders almost never train

[zoom6zoom]

I would also postulate that a very high percentage of those who have carry permits.... almost never actually carry.

Obviously this is skewed in states like Massachusetts, where you must have an LTC to even OWN a handgun, but even in "free" states this seems to apply.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by george burns:

...reading and studying any subject, is still considered training

By whom?

No place does it say an instructor is necessary.

"It" may not, but experience shows us that instructors are necessary.

Here's what wiki tells us: "Training is the acquisition of knowledge, skills, and competencies as a result of the teaching of vocational or practical skills and knowledge that relate to specific useful competencies."

One problem is, it is extremely difficult for anyone to teach self defense skills simply by writing about them. Each reader is likely to interpret what is written slightly differently.

Over the decades I have fired dozens and dozens of handguns and read thousands and thousands of pages of writing, but none of that prepared me at all for what I now practice. My first SD training course was an eye-opener, it improved my skill-set tremendously, due to the instruction. Even some competitors benefited from what the instructors told and showed them.

The second? Even more so.

I would say that putting what you learned to use on a steady basis is still a form of training.

Practice, yes; training, no.

Especially if you improve over time, with your accuracy and time.

How can you hope to improve if no one evaluates whether you are doing things right in the first place?

What I am getting at, is the fact that many don't ever shoot the darn thing, yet carry it not even knowing if it will fire.

Many? I don't think many people actually do that.

 

[raubvogel]

Well, some ranges have restrictions of what you can do; my old range was very big against double taps.

What I was told by one of the employees on that very ranges to try as an exercise was to leave gun on the little bench, loaded, then grab it, aim, and shoot it. And then put it back. And then do the same but starting with pistol and magazine apart.

I need to ask what the new range allows me to do.

 

[PistolPete45]

Shooting yes drawing rarely.. Yea I should drill on draw and shoot multiple targets Just never seem to practice the draw part . Shooting multiple targets not as often as I should . Have 4 steel zombies about a foot tall and a bigger cowboy with the scattered evil tin can .

 

[george burns]

That and cost, is the problem for many. I understand that paying for training is something that most permit holders are really unfamiliar with, but "practice", should be self evident, which is far better than nothing.
Even Gun Handling, and dry firing Is essential in having the weapon feel like second nature in your hand instead of a foreign object.
I dry fire almost every night, including concealment and cover drills.
I do this at night when I am alone.
But as mentioned earlier, I mention this to 2 friends of mine that are really terrible shots, I have taken both to the range, and I haven't seen many that are worse.
But they insist that they are just fine and can shoot well. Textbook anticipation and bad form grip etc. Literally had trouble at 7 yards hitting the paper.
But it's not up to me to force them to go, my wife is hard enough to drag there, and she is a natural, her eye hand coordination is exceptional. But she also hates to practice or listen.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Range SOPs....

The use of rental places or private business ranges can be a hassle.
One place I went by said; "no holster work" .
I've shot at a few rental places that didn't permit "rapid fire" or "double taps".
I like shooting "hammer" drills.
One place I use off & on that offers discounts to veterans/military active duty has lanes with "barricades". You can also control the lights. Shooting in low light conditions or being able to fire quickly at odd angles is worth it.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

I try to take at least one course per year and work on specific skills at least twice per week. Holster work, jam-clearing and dry-firing at home, holster work and shooting at the range. I am a certified instructor and use teaching as an additional training experience.

FH

 

[Ankeny]

I shoot frequently and practice a lot of shooting skills. But it has been years since I had a formal class on fighting with a handgun.

 

[GBExpat]

What percentage of CCW holders almost never train

My guess is that other than, perhaps, an initial class/course (mostly) for people new to handguns, only a very small percentage of CCW holders actually train.

Other than the basic instruction that my Dad gave me when he bought his first pistol in the late '60s, I have never had any handgun training and probably never will.

I have a range in my backyard. I reload and shoot periodically, but never do any "tactical drills".

 

[anothernewb]

While I agree that most don't have much real training. Consider the other side. Anyone who has at least practiced with their weapon once is vastly ahead of the criminals who have stolen them or illegally posess one - and have never ever used them except to pose with them.

 

[Sunray]

I'd guess there are no stats. Unless there's a legal requirement to practice, most people don't. Has nothing to do with owning firearms though. We had a regular customer who had a fairly large collection of mostly milsurps and never fired any of 'em. Or anything else.
"...for the wrong reasons..." Suspect the vast majority do so just because they can.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by anothernewb:

Consider the other side. Anyone who has at least practiced with their weapon once is vastly ahead of the criminals who have stolen them or illegally posess one - and have never ever used them except to pose with them.

Yeah, but how many fall into that category?

See this.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

And do you rely think that "anyone who has at least practiced with their weapon once" will likely be able to draw and fire timely?

 

[Blue Thunder]

I have taken 5 Gun Fighting Courses in the last 5 years and have attended 2 Alumni courses. The training is intense, the drills are great for learning what to do when and how to do it. That said there is a lot of expense doing this as it involves travel sometimes, overnight stays, and of course lots of ammo. The courses were $400-500 each, 500-600 rounds of ammo for two days. The alumni courses less than $100 each and around 250-300 rounds each. Shooting this much in one or two days will find out if your gun will hold up in one piece or cause problems after the first 50-100 rounds as some have found out.
I do dry fire practice in and around the house with paper targets taped on the walls, as like others have found out, most ranges do not permit holster work. My range will permit me to use 2 lanes so I can have targets at different ranges to work on shooting from one to another. The deck grab is what I also use in place of Holster work. PS, on a couple of the Large classes (12-15) shooters, some of the folks that had the Custom Guns were the first to start sitting out and cleaning and lubing their guns to get back into the training.
I feel that my investment has paid off as I have more confidence in my abilities to CCW now than before. I have also shot USPSA/IPSC for 14 years and that gave me a very good background in gun handling and functioning a gun on a targer standing still or running.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Street thugs, gangs....

I seriously doubt the 40% stat for thugs & gang members "training" with firearms.
I do think some rehearse or plan to do things like weapon snatches or where/how to cache-hide firearms.
Crooks & felons rarely use gun holsters or bother with cleaning/inspections.
A recent THR forum topic had a post by a member who wrote they were a retired street cop. The forum member said in about 24 years of patrol work he only saw 2 suspects that had guns in holsters.

Some gang members or felons are veterans or have military service but they don't run up & down the streets shooting guns or do IPSC matches.

Author & legal use of force expert; Massad Ayoob says he requires students provide a valid CCW license or gun permit & not have any DQs(criminal backgrounds, pending charges, mental health problems, etc).
If I had a training course, I'd do the same but in 2014, not all cadre or programs are such strict.

 

[X-Rap]

The potential attackers are often belittled and IMO perilously underestimated just as we conversely typically overestimate our own abilities, equipment,and tactics .
I'm sure this is some defense mechanism but in the end I doubt that it's healthy.

 

[JohnBiltz]

A lot of what you guys consider training does not apply to CCW. Practicing reloads doesn't apply if you don't carry a reload and most people don't carry a reload. Nor does practicing a reload where the magazine is on the waist if you carry it in your pocket. Which is my problem with most of the training courses, I'm not interested in becoming a cop, kicking in doors or becoming an operator. Why aren't there more 2 day courses where they teach the way people actually carry.

A lot of trainers replying as usual. I'm going to say you're a little biased on this issue. You don't need a trainer to train. Most of what I actually consider training that I do does not use ammo. I can practice drawing in my home. I can dry fire. I can practice moving and aiming with a laser. When I shoot I'm under range restrictions. Their range, their rules. It may not be training and no I don't think it is either but it is practice. If I don't do it I sure don't get better. In fact, I get a lot worse. Shooting is a perishable skill.

 

[Schwing]

By some of the standards here, I have never trained yet I have carried every day for about 20 years. I have never used an instructor, never been to a class etc. I guess I would fall under the "Never trains" category.

Even so, I can draw and hit any 6" target at 15 yards or so in less than 2 seconds every time. I can hit the same target, sitting, prone, left handed, right handed and do it from a covered position. So...Who defines "Training". If you are getting the definition from Wikipedia then nothing further needs to be said.

While I have always intended to take some formal training and even purchased a Frontsight membership, I have just never had the time or inclination to get it done. I think some people just need to have that stamp that says they are "Qualified" from a third party to feel that they stack up. I have never understood this. Even at my local range, there are several certified NRA instructors that can't hit the broad side of a barn so, obviously, third party training isn't the most important factor in becoming a proficient shooter.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Schwing:

By some of the standards here, I have never trained yet I have carried every day for about 20 years. I have never used an instructor, never been to a class etc. I guess I would fall under the "Never trains" category.

Yep!

Even so, I can draw and hit any 6" target at 15 yards or so in less than 2 seconds every time. I can hit the same target, sitting, prone, left handed, right handed and do it from a covered position.

In my opinion, you have described yourself as shooting too slowly. The vast majority of violent encounters occur within fifteen feet; two seconds could very well be too long; and in the opinion of many trainers, practicing to hit a six inch target is placing too much emphasis on precision and too little on speed.

So...Who defines "Training". If you are getting the definition from Wikipedia then nothing further needs to be said.

Try Dictionary.com, then. The definition of the verb "to train" includes the word "instruction".

I think some people just need to have that stamp that says they are "Qualified" from a third party to feel that they stack up. I have never understood this.

Maybe for some, but I care nothing about the "stamp", and I do not really feel that I will always "stack up" well enough to defend myself with any certainty of success.

Even at my local range, there are several certified NRA instructors that can't hit the broad side of a barn so, obviously, third party training isn't the most important factor in becoming a proficient shooter.

Most NRA trainers teach the fundamentals of gun handling and safety. Also, it is important to realize that there is a distinct difference between being a "proficient shooter" and having the skills necessary to defend oneself in a surprising, chaotic, and violent real world situation.

 

[GEM]

One part of modern critical incident training is to experience stress and work through it. Advanced level training has been shown to do that in a firearms context. Reading about it or shooting the square range are nice for skills but don't touch stress inoculation.

I'm going to suggest to major league baseball that the players just read a book or throw a ball around the backyard.

Can most DGUs be handled by waving the gun and the BG going away - sure.

But there are high profile cases in the news where a modicum of training in MORE than just shooting a stationary target might have saved our hero's life and/or avoided a pretty hideous incident on the news that make CCW types look like idiots. The cases that are used to attack stand your ground laws would not have happened if the 'shooter' had decent appreciation of incidents and stress training.

 

[stchman]

So "training" is where you receive professional instruction.

I have my CCW and go to the range many times a year. A lot of ranges do not even allow you to draw from a holster.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

While I also agree that most criminals probably lack what we would consider "gun skills," most violent criminals are pretty good at the "criminal violence skills" thing, and in any event, I don't think it's a good idea to underestimate an enemy or to rely on his incompetence to win.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #40.....

In response to post #40:
Believe me, I do not under-estimate the street thugs or gang members/human traffickers.
In 2011/2012, I had a security job where I had direct contact with these "citizens in crisis"(a PC term the meto PD came up with for media reports, ).
They aren't MENSA members or really sharp. They do hide, cache, steal & fabricate weapons/guns/ammunition etc.

I highly doubt any of these crooks or street thugs are reading Jeff Cooper articles or taking classes with Clint Smith or Jeff Gonzales.

Rusty

 

[Cee Zee]

I don't want to get hung up on semantics here but I don't think training means being trained by someone else. That's learning IMO. It's still important but when a baseball team has spring training it basically means spring practice. I remember people using the term training to mean working out. There's very little learning involved in that.

I've gone through my share of instructional videos and the like. I don't think anyone should ignore the value of that. But I don't think we should be so strict on what the words we use mean here. Training and practice are often used to mean the same thing. It's not a big deal to pick one term over the other. It has some value to this thread but beyond that I wouldn't expect people to automatically assume I meant taking a class or reading a book or watching a video and putting that stuff into use as the "only" things that are covered by the word "training". Again I think it's a good idea. I just don't think we should be so strident about using the word "training".

 

[Schwing]

In my opinion, you have described yourself as shooting too slowly. The vast majority of violent encounters occur within fifteen feet; two seconds could very well be too long; and in the opinion of many trainers, practicing to hit a six inch target is placing too much emphasis on precision and too little on speed.

The rule of thumb I have always and still hear is 3 feet 3 rounds 3 seconds so I don't see a downside to being able to exceed that range by a factor of 15. As far as precision goes, there are dozens of bystanders wounded and killed by police every year who probably wish those officers had spent a little more time on precision and less on speed. Since I pocket carry, 2 seconds is more than realistic. I feel comfortable with my skill level. I don't compete nor see the need to either.

I don't deny that many of us could use more training but sometimes I think these threads devolve pretty fast. People get excited as to their own level of competence and are, sometimes, more eager to demonstrate that they are at the top of the pack than impart actual useful information.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Schwing:

The rule of thumb I have always and still hear is 3 feet 3 rounds 3 seconds...

Yes, one does hear that from time to time.

The number of rounds can vary a great deal. And if you analyze it, you will find that if an attacker is moving at 15 feet per second, he would travel aroud eight feet between the first and third shot. On that basis, one should probably strive for a rate of fire approaching four rounds per second, assuming that one can achieve combat accuracy while doing so..

I asked Rob Pincus about the source of that phrase, and he more or less characterized it as folklore.

There are some real data, however. The distance data from the incidents experienced by Rangemaster students indicate that around 85% of the incidents occurred within 15 feet, IIRC.

Here are some other relevant data.

....so I don't see a downside to being able to exceed that range by a factor of 15.

The question is not one of minutes of angle; rather, it is one of training in realistic situations, balancing speed and precision at likely distances. Shooting at a target at which you have planned to shoot, the location of which is known to you, when you intend to shoot it, at a distance considerably farther away than you will likely have to shoot to defend yourself in the real world, can lead to training the wrong reactive and cognitive behavior.

Rob Pincus can explain that far better than I, and it takes more to do so than we have time for here. So, I strongly recommend reading Counter Ambush: The Science of Training for the Unexpected Defensive Shooting, by Rob Pincus.

I had the good fortune of being able to attend the Combat Focus Shooting course when the I. C. E. Personal Defense Network tour this year, and I recommend it highly.

But not everyone can do that. So, if you have access to a range with a three-sided berm, in which you can set up multiple targets and draw while moving, you can get the phone app and the study kit and try the drills yourself. You'll need a buddy. But do read the book first.

Be aware that it is not about how to shoot well.