What percentage of CCW holders almost never train

[browningguy]

"It" may not, but experience shows us that instructors are necessary.

Maybe, but maybe not. Unfortunately the quality of instruction available today ranges fro good, to downright dangerous (in my opinion). I remember a few years back position Sul was all the rage with a bunch of high paid (but idiot in my opinion) instructors. They took a gun handling method that was developed for a very particular problem of military and police stacked to enter a position, and tried to teach it as the way everyone should hold their pistol, when clearing their house for example.

Everybody and their dog these days seems to be an ex-operator/SWAT/police marksman whatever. And to be honest most of the military/police tactics probably won't be of much use when you get into a street fight. I've heard tell of cases where people were trained to fire two rounds on a target, then scan for threats (by nodding their big old heads left and right a couple of times) then re-holster. And they do that all the time now, even when there is another threat target that pops up.

My opinion is that getting good at the games, IDPA or IPSC, will put you far ahead of what most instructors teach. Sure, they are just games, but it's fast, it's furious, and it's about getting good hits on target quickly, all of which will be good things to do in a gunfight. You also get to practice gun handling skills like mag changes and clearing jams, at full speed, while trying to move and make hits.

The first counter-terrorism training I had in the Navy (good lord, I just realized that was 38 years ago) was excellent. And they didn't teach us a single thing about shooting. What they taught was situational awareness and how to avoid trouble so hopefully you don't have to shoot your way out of it. The first shooting school we went to they trained us to put lead on all the targets we could see then go to cover and re-evaluate, not stand around in the open in an isosceles stance nodding your head around.

But let's be honest, it's hard to actually train like you are going to fight in the modern world. Many, perhaps most people, don't have a facility within a reasonable distance where they can do so. And many of those that do have something nearby simply don't have the money to pay for the classes, nobody is giving these things away you know. When my youngest daughter went to get her CHL I did have her take (and I paid for) a Ladies Defensive Pistol 1 class with a local instructor, she did very well. And the instructor commented on her gun handling skills and asked where she had trained previously, it was at home of course. After she got her CHL I also paid for her to go to Advanced Ladies Defensive Pistol, because she liked the instructors and I thought she learned something from them the first time. The next step is for her to shoot IDPA events, practicing trigger control, learning about use of cover and concealment, drawing, mag changes, all at speed.

I read a lot on techniques and tactics and I shoot IDPA/IPSC several times a year to keep my limited skills at least a little polished. I also go shoot at the range pretty frequently at paper targets ranging from 3-50 yards with pistols, sub-guns, AR's and hi-cap shotguns. I prefer IDPA for pistols since use of cover and concealment is a big deal, but I like IPSC because rate of fire/reloading is at a premium.

And I have adapted new techniques over the years, for example I practiced the Isosceles until I learned it's good and bad points and have adopted it for the most part, and that was after shooting strictly Weaver stance for 40 years.

My Take on the question:

Taking a class to learn threat avoidance is good.
Many pistol instructors can teach you basic gun handling skills.
Most pistol instructors aren't worth the money to teach actual fighting skills.
An instructor who is a Master level IDPA shooter will be pretty good.
Getting good at IDPA/IPSC is an excellent way to practice at full speed.
Standing in the open nodding your big old head around is bad.

 

[Cee Zee]

consider myself a decent driver but I have never had anything that I would consider "training" in any meaningful way.

I took driver's ed. which in my case taught me a great deal about surviving on the road. Then I drove very cautiously for almost 2 years before really getting up to speed in cities. I lived in a rural area and driving slow was an easy option. I took training and I practiced it until I was good enough to suit myself.

With guns I grew up around them so shooting for accuracy was almost a given for me. I would basically have been a laughingstock in my family if I couldn't shoot accurately. Learning combat skills started from WWII vets one of which was was a sniper and another was a darn fine shooter. Then there was my special forces friend. He was my best friend in high school and he basically became Rambo or the closest thing there was to him in real life. He taught hand to hand combat in the special forces. That was his job. He hated it actually. He said he joined the army to learn a skill and all they did was teach him to kill people. Not much call for that kind of work in my neighborhood. But we talked about a lot of things including such classics as "if you're close enough to punch somebody, shoot them". That wasn't all of course but it was a classic IMO.

Then came SD videos, hand to hand training from my friend and my next door neighbor who was also a great friend and a karate instructor for years among other things. I learned a lot from him. Then there was the forward spotter in the Korean War who talked about his tactics for staying alive when half the world wanted him dead quick. He did it with a 1911 in each hand.

I learned a few things in my CCW class but not a lot. I knew pretty much everything they taught in that class by the time I took it. But I got started into internet videos and stuff I got sent in the mail from people trying to sell me their services. I never asked for the stuff. They just sent it.

I tried to put all of what I learned into my approach to SD. I did some of the drills I learned in those videos. Most of it was common sense but it wasn't common enough that most people thought about it. Things like double taps then sidestep and double tap again, point shooting and how to practice it, and other things like that covered the basics. There was a lot to those videos and I never got too far into the more complicated ones. I didn't really need to know how to sweep a house in formation because I didn't have anyone to be in formation with.

That stuff has to qualify as training especially the videos. They were called training videos. They were done by some of the same experts that teach the classes. But I have to say there is only so much a person can keep in their head in a high stress situation. I learned that from a video BTW. Their approach was to do the basics and you will be way ahead of those who haven't learned anything. They also taught that too much information could make you confused in crunch time. I went with that and did the drills they designed. I stuck with their advice to not try to think too much too.

I'd call that training and I don't care if all the instructors in the world say different and all the people who paid for instruction say different. Those guys were instructors too. I know what they said and I tried to put it into practice. That's training IMO.

 

[CZ223]

I have to agree with

Cee Zee and Browning guy here. I shoot IDPA, not as much as I would like to, and while I know it is not what most would consider training, you can learn some good, and bad, things from it and the competitors. Remember, learning what not to do is as important as learning what to do. If you can, and do, shoot an IDPA course with the gear you have on your person every day, which would include your carry gun and two spare mags in a double or two single mag pouches, you are probably way ahead of the rest. I practice to drawing my weapon from concealment at my home and my shop when no one else is around a lot. when I go to the range I practice a lot of of draw and fire drills. I usually set up at least three Man shaped targets so that I can do different drills without having to set up new targets. I might start by drawing and double tapping one or all three targets as fast as possible, reholstering after every string. My gun will run dry in the middle of a string and that is when I practice mag changes. I also practice tactical reloads. I practice shooting then moving and shooting while moving. I also shoot from different positions. If this sounds a lot like an IDPA course that is because it is. Oddly enough, I was practicing shooting like this when a guy came up and asked if I were an IDPA shooter. I said no, to which he said, "you ought to be because that is pretty much how we shoot". I have learned a lot from some of the better competitors and from online videos.
My daughter took a a CCW course from a very reputable company about a year ago and, since the course was given at the club I belong to, I asked the instructor if I could watch the shooting portion of the class. The main instructor was a combat vet who had served 5 tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. He and his 2 other instructors were great. It was pretty cold that day so everyone was wearing heavy clothing so concealment was not a problem. By the end of the day, the people in the course, some of whom had never shot a gun in their lives, were drawing and firing their weapons at man sized targets better than a lot of people I see on the range. Everybody fired their weapon 150 times which is 150 more rounds than is required by the state to get your CCW. In fact, this was the only course that even required you to have a gun and holster for the class. Most of the classes teach gun safety and that is it. What I learned from watching the class was that I wasn't doing anything wrong. I also learned that I could learn from these guys and I want to take a course or two from them.

 

[Catshooter]

I'd guess about that same number that actually carry a real gun (no mice guns) 24/7/365, very, very few.


Cat

 

[Sauer Grapes]

We have over 5,000 members at our club. I see the same small group of regulars every time I go and an occasional newbie.
Out of the regular guys I see, most shoot for fun, not train for a gunfight. Heck I'm pretty sure maybe only 50% even have a LTCF.

 

[Pyzon]

This reminds me of friends and family that show up to hunt with a.) A gun still in the cardboard box, scope bore sighted, never fired, or b.) A borrowed gun, never fired by them.

No fun hunting with idiots like that. I hunt elsewhere that day.

 

[george burns]

It's downright dangerous hunting with untrained new hunters who shoot at anything that moves. Half of them are cold after an hour, and spend the rest of the day, drinking and telling long stories.
Near my one uncles passing, he would only track animals, 'no one ate the meat anymore", so he carried his gear just didn't shoot them.
He would go for 3 days, just learning where the Buck , or Bear, was going to be, then track him until he got him in his sights, and let him go. Good men die young many times, so enjoy your passion while you can still get out there.
PS: he still would get a turkey every year.

 

[22-rimfire]

Hunting with a camera can be a lot of fun and you don't have to pay attention to the hunting seasons to do it. I have never particularly enjoyed venison and as the years past and the fact that my wife simply doesn't want to cook it, the driving interest to "get my buck" has reduced slowly. I gave the meat away mostly. But in most cases, nobody wants it if it requires much effort; hence you have to have it all packaged and frozen for them to take it.

You're right about untrained hunters. But with some effort and experience, they can be very safe and sportsmanlike.

 

[22-rimfire]

If I had to guess, I'd say that about half of CCW permit holders shoot 5 or 6 times a year at most, and the more typical is once or twice a year. Most of that training is to confirm firearm reliability and at least marginal accuracy versus draw, reloads, jam removal, and shooting in some sort of combat simulation.

 

[TRX]

When was the last time you signed up for a driving school?

You can get a short course for under $1500 if you shop around.

I'd say, for protection and potential loss of life, keeping up to date on your driving skills would be way more important than pistol training.

 

[george burns]

I have taken several Driving courses. Like Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving , Lime rock for Porsche instruction, and a few others. My best friends brother was the head instructor at Lime Rock. I like to drive.
Also much Drag Racing as a younger man at National Speedway, Islip,and West Hampton. I figure if you have a car that does over 150, you should learn how to drive it.
My inexpensive mustang does 0-60 in 5.2, and the quarter in 13.9, and that is as fast as my GTO did with 3-2barrels and a 380 rear with a 4 speed.. It's pulling way over the advertised 305 HP out of a 6. On the Dyno, it is around 380 with a few tweaks.
The 4 cyl Eco Boost, is pulling 325 out of a 4 cyl, and even better times. Someone just puller 720 HP out of the V8.
I like cars, and don't think anyone should drive a 3 or 4 second 0-60 car without instruction, especially rich kids who get them for graduation presents, and wrap them around a pole, because their parents were idiots.
I also was in a gun club for several years, and shot competitively against the FBI in Fishkill and NYPD. But not for 25 years. I still shoot a few times a year, but I am in my mid 60's, if I could I would shoot more, hell I would shoot every day if I could.

 

[GBExpat]

That is, pretty much, a perfect non-response to TRX's post

 

[B1gGr33n]

I dry-fire train every-other week using the Personal Defense Network Combat Focus Shooting DVD. I fully understand that it is not nearly as comprehensive as live instruction with a trainer, but it's the best I can afford. I'll take that over "Maybe someday I'll be able to go to Front Sight..." any day.

 

[george burns]

You do what you are able to do. That's life, but one should make an effort to learn how to use anything that is capable of doing extreme damage if not used properly, within ones budget.
You can't spend money you don't have. But you can read up on how to do things yu don't know how to do.
I learned how to build computers almost 20 yrs. ago from watching videos and reading.
You can learn almost anything now online, as Colleges offer Degrees online.
So you don't need to have an instructor if you aren't able to afford one.
There are even videos on how to apply Botox to yourself, lol
or make all kinds of things from carpentry to ship building. , It just requires the will to learn.
Much can be learned from reading and videos, if an instructor is not in the price range, even Flight simulators that are as realistic as the real thing. I think the important thing is to realize that one needs instruction in order to be a more valuable member of society when carrying a deadly weapon, rather than to just carry it without the basic fundamentals having been learned.
I am speaking about practical, not political. Like which ammo to use for what, how far is that bullet going to travel, what is it going to penetrate before it stops, how to hold the weapon properly, clear a jam. Things like that.
The list is quite long and just think about how little moat folks actually know, and how usefull the info could be for them.

 

[Cee Zee]

It's downright dangerous hunting with untrained new hunters who shoot at anything that moves.

Ain't that the truth. Back when I was riding my ATV a lot I always stayed home during gun season in KY. I've heard too many horror stories about mules being shot after someone tracked them right into someone's barn and guys hunting within 100 yards of a busy 4 lane highway and a quarter of a mile from a fairly large town. It really isn't safe in certain areas during gun season. And then there's the bozos who invade our farm and end up hunting within sight of our barn and a quarter of a mile from the house my cousin lives in. They are primarily made up of a bunch of yahoos that got burned by a land developer who promised them swimming pools, playgrounds and fishing lakes as part of a "resort". The price of admission was buying a tiny camping site size lot for "just $500" which made them selling $300 an acre land (at the time) for about $50,000 an acre. And no pool was ever built along with all the other stuff they promised. But before it became obvious what was happening (they did a little work on the lake) people had bought up like 4 lots together and actually built houses on them. And when none of the stuff ever came about they eventually decided to make the most of a bad situation by deer hunting the surrounding woods which happen to belong to me and my cousins. There was an army of them trying to hunt our land every year. We collected a ton of deer stands. The game warden practically lived on our farm. It took 10 years to stop those clowns.

If you see me complaining about preppers thinking they can bug out to the country and live off the land you'll know why I tell a lot of them that they don't own that land but someone else does. They maintain it, pay taxes on it, stock it with game they buy, and fight to keep the yahoos off of it. That's my ace in the hole for hard times and no interloper is going to move in and take it.

Sorry for the rant. I get like that around gun season.