What really happens ...

[Al Thompson]

I'm not all that worried about a single firearm. I'd hate to be left defenseless if my other firearms were taken for evidence.

Leadcounsel, I suspect that firearm your referencing will be kept until the case is closed. If the bad guy gets prosecuted, that may be awhile.

 

[dusty14u]

Good points made. I am glad my son-in-law just passed the bar and is a trial lawyer. He is a sharp young man and in a great law firm.

Losing a firearm in leiu of bodily harm is a small price to pay, although I would want them back.

 

[withdrawn34]

Why move out?

Why talk to the press at all?

 

[leadcounsel]

Why move out?

Why talk to the press at all?

Moving out would be a possible course of action (COA) for a number of reasons: 1. Mess cleanup may take days or weeks depending on the mess. 2. Post traumatic stress from the incident may disturb the wife/kids, etc. 3. Threats or intimidation from the deceased criminal's gang friends/family, especially if 'race' is an issue. How are middle class working families to protect their family, pets, home, etc. against low life, unemployed, bored thugs?

Why talk to the press? Again a possible strategy to get the press in your corner, especially if the DA could be pressured by demands for justice from 'racial' groups if 'race' is an issue. May be wise to put your side out there to battle public perception if the other side is on the news every night battling the issue in a public forum. Look at Rod Blagoyouvich. He protested his innocence so much on TV that he was only convicted on 1, yes 1, of 24 counts. I believe that he was probably guilty of more, but he played the public like a fiddle.

 

[esquare]

Why move out?

There is an active gang presence and threats of retribution. How would you, as a person that has a family and a job, handle that situation?

 

[daorhgih]

O.K., how does this work out?

The dead, armed intruder (who broke down the porch-door) is lying on the deck, dead, and I am holding my weapon and talking to LEO who have come per my summons. Does LEO have any right (besides, "It's just our departmental procedure") to enter my home beyond the porch? Can they rifle my closets and cabinets and gun-safe? Should I hold out for them getting a warrant? Can I PREVENT their further incursion into my home? How?

 

[esquare]

The dead, armed intruder (who broke down the porch-door) is lying on the deck, dead, and I am holding my weapon and talking to LEO who have come per my summons. Does LEO have any right (besides, "It's just our departmental procedure") to enter my home beyond the porch? Can they rifle my closets and cabinets and gun-safe? Should I hold out for them getting a warrant? Can I PREVENT their further incursion into my home? How?

Several things about this - you won't be holding a weapon and talking to cops. That's just not ever going to happen. Also, if the police are investigating a homicide, you will be placed somewhere safe and they are going to do whatever they want to do. You can say that you don't permit searches, but if you try to stop them, you will end up in a heap of trouble and will probably get hurt. I'm sure that a homicide on the back of your deck is going to be interpreted as a reasonable search and I doubt they will need a warrant, but if they do, they will get it.

 

[Jenrick]

daorhgih: The weapon in you hand will be seized as evidence. From there you can refuse a search of your residence. I can guarantee you that a warrant will be written, and it will be done even if you say that they can search the residence. That's what makes major crime scenes take so long, all the paperwork. The detectives aren't going to loose a piece of evidence, because they may or may not have had consent to enter the residence.

If there is evidence that another party inside the residence needs medical attention or was a witness, they (depending on your states laws and authorities) have the authority to enter and check on those persons. Additionally due to the compelling need for officer safety and the nature of the call, clearing the residence of all persons to ensure all victims, witness, and suspects are accounted for is going to be standard procedure most places. Now from there a smart cop is going to keep EVERYONE including other officers out of the residence until the warrant is signed to keep the crime scene as intact as possible. Less smart cops are going to start poking around where they don't need to be, and possibly loose things based on the reasonable of their poking around. Opening a closet to check to see if someones hiding in there and finding something, that will probably stand. A person can hide or be hidden in a closet. Opening a kitchen draw and finding something will get tossed, there is now way in heck someone can hide in the silverware drawer.

In short, a warrant will be cut. It will probably specify any and all firearms located in the residence to be seized for evidence purposes and ballistic testing.

-Jenrick

 

[leadcounsel]

a warrant will be cut. It will probably specify any and all firearms located in the residence to be seized for evidence purposes and ballistic testing.

1- Never consent to searches. Let me repeat that. NEVER consent to searches. Make the LEO do his work and get a warrant.
2- Warrants must state with specificity what the police can search and what they are looking for. Unless there was evidence of foul play, if you defended yourself with a 9mm handgun, there's no way a warrant would authorize searching in areas or seizing weapons inconsistent with a 9mm handgun, which they already have. There would have to be PROBABLE CAUSE to believe it was a different handgun. They aren't going to seize your .3006 hunting rifle, or your 12 gauge Mossberg, etc. They are going to take your statement, see that the handgun on the counter was the one you used, and seize it pending the results of the investigation. Soon as you're cleared they'll release it to you. Now it may have been fondled, tested, and abused, but you should get it back promptly as long as the investigation is done timely. Back to warrants, they are prepared by the detective/LEO and go to a magistrate. Magistrates aren't stupid. They aren't going to typically frivously give the cops a blank check to search every nook and cranny and seize every firearm. That's unconstitutional and could result is the magistrate being disciplined/fired. Also, it's a waste of time and resources.

Now if there's foul play suspected or charges pressed, different story... but again if you're sweating it out in a cell, you've got bigger issues than where your guns are.

 

[griz]

I had the entire house into a storage unit within 12 hours of the first shot.

I can understand the desire to move, but how is clearing out the house in 12 hours even possible? I'm assuming the Police will have control of the scene for many hours. Combine that with the blood clean up, general confusion surrounding the busy events, and the difficulting of arranging things quickly, and 12 hours seems impossible. Maybe his house was much emptier than I'm thinking.

 

[Deanimator]

1- Never consent to searches. Let me repeat that. NEVER consent to searches. Make the LEO do his work and get a warrant.

And if any lawyer tells you any different, his next interrogatory should be, "Would you like fries with that?"

"I was attacked. I was in fear for my life. I defended myself. I having nothing further to say without speaking to counsel." If your assailant(s) escaped, tell the cops what direction they were headed in.

You have NO way to tell whether the cop questioning you thinks you should have let yourself be robbed, raped or murdered, or whether he doesn't think you shot your assailant enough times. And the law allows him to LIE to you about it.

Consent to NO searches and keep your mouth shut beyond the bare minimum until your lawyer is present.

 

[FriedRice]

I'm sad to see this happened but encouraged to see it being discussed on THR. I was advised by local legal counsel that depending on the circumstances involved in a self defense shooting, prepare to have ALL firearms confiscated, at least for a short time. It's been advised to have other means of defense present out of home or office.

It makes total sense to me that they'd need to move out, at least for awhile. The family is probably traumatized and feeling defenseless in a tough situation. No one really knows what it's going to be like until it happens but I imagine I would struggle with walking by the place on my floor where I had to stop an intruder. Situations can vary but if my attorney thought it was best to make a statement to the press, I would do so. The law is not black and white and depending on where you live, you could get scapegoated in the press on the back of some higher up's political agenda. Yes, we have RKBA and other rights protecting us, however we live in a very murky world despite those laws. The man's list after the fact is a good one to go by now IMO. These are things I've done my best to prepare for in case they are ever needed. It would be hard enough to deal with the actual incident, but it doesn't end there.

My condolences to the family. I hope they get back to a place of peace as soon as possible.

 

[Shopping A Round]

Very good discussion. My apologies to your friend's for having to go through with this.

At the risk of having all of my guns confiscated, should I just not have a lot of guns?

What about in terms of theft? Only have 5 guns at a time? Fewer illegal guns on the street, and then fewer guns I have lost.

If I don't have as many guns, less damage is done if they are confiscated/stolen.

 

[FriedRice]

I don't have any intention of getting rid of any of my guns. I store them very securely and appropriately given all the circumstances I can think of. I definitely wasn't the one advocating limiting our RKBA. Not a chance. Actually I'm not sure anyone was advocating that. Sarcasm can be hard to catch in the written word. But I can only speak for myself.

 

[Jenrick]

Warrants must state with specificity what the police can search and what they are looking for. Unless there was evidence of foul play, if you defended yourself with a 9mm handgun, there's no way a warrant would authorize searching in areas or seizing weapons inconsistent with a 9mm handgun, which they already have.

The issues arises though, how does a third party know that you used said 9mm handgun? Hell you can't even necessarily begin telling different types of ballistic injuries apart, rat shot out of a pistol will produce a wound having a similar appearance to a shotgun for instance. Just because there are 9mm casings on the ground, is there anyway to verify that they were not placed there after the fact? Stupid yes, but a homicide detective is the embodiment of anal-retentive and OCD. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that the detective has to treat the scene the same as a murder, and do whatever they can to put as solid an affirmative link as possible. One of the ways they do that is attempting to have a chain of physical evidence and lab data definitively stating that weapon X was the weapon that fired the round(s). To have that they must rule out other weapons on scene that might have fired the rounds.

On average a judge will know as much about firearms as the community they reside in. Most places they won't know much beyond guns shoot bullets. With that level of knowledge how difficult do you think it is to get a warrant signed for all the firearms in the residence?

-Jenrick

 

[SSN Vet]

Some police/prosecutors have a policy that anyone shooting anyone will be charged and arrested regardless of the circumstances, that all guns in the home will be seized (and destroyed unless a court orders otherwise), and that any and all witnesses will be held until the prosecutor orders them released. Children will be turned over to social services, everyone else goes to jail.

Perhaps in one of the "Peoples Republic states".... but not in a free state...

Not in Maine and not in New Hampshire.

 

[SSN Vet]

I had the entire house into a storage unit within 12 hours of the first shot.

watch the video at the link...

it's a really small house

 

[Lord Teapot]

Perhaps in one of the "Peoples Republic states".... but not in a free state...

Not in Maine and not in New Hampshire.

facism is on the way. just hide a stockpile of weapons/ammo in another location. then when you get released, and they wont return your weapons due to evidence purposes, you can have something to defend yourself with.

 

[Girodin]

Having your attorney provide the statement prevents you from being locked into having said anything in terms of legalities.

It seems to me this would be a statement by your agent and thus not really offer much cover, but maybe it depends on the exact context you have in mind.

Unless the people involved have political pull, the shooter will probably be arrested, even if defending his/her home or life.

Arrested? That is not what I have seen happen in the last few high profile cases here. Sure the cops are going to talk to you but arrest is a different matter. I think whether one is taken into custody is going to be a fact specific inquiry.

Would probably file a lawsuit and press charges against the intruder!

Good luck collecting on that judgment. People breaking into homes tend to be judgment proof. I would love to sue the tweekers that broke into one of my homes and were subsequently arrested. Turns out they didn't have much in way of assets shocking huh.

 

[daorhgih]

Lord Teapot, good idea

I already have the biggest BOB in the world, hiding out in a pair of storage lockers/garages just a mile from here. Paid for annually. ATV, snow-blower, generator, fuel, MREs, and a few firearms, O.K.d by the contract. This is where I walk to a couple times a week. Owner knows me well, but it's not my name on the contract. Better safe than .......

 

[Mudinyeri]

Many of you have asked why they moved out. Here's my opinion. Gang activity in the neighborhood had been escalating. I'm guessing my acquaintance assumed that the individuals that broke into his house were members of said gang(s) and deduced that remaining in the area put them at risk.

There were some other factors involved, but those are part of his personal life and I'm not going to drag them out here on a public forum.

As far as packing up a house in 12 hours ... it's really not that hard to do if you don't own a lot of stuff and are focused on speed rather than care for your belongings.