what to do in a self defense situation....

[Avalanche2082]

ok so I watch Personal Defense TV and in an episode Massod talks about the steps to take if you are involved in a self defense situation when he get to the part about talking to the officer basically he says keep it simple don't say much say you'll sign the complaint, point out the brass and the gun, and then say you want to use your right to remain silent...but what happens when they try and interrogate you and try and make you say stuff or threaten you, or what happens if you need to use the restroom or you have medication you need to take or need medical attention do you just ask?? or are they going to say well you want something from us then you speak and tell us more before you get what you want?? We don't all have personal recongnition like Massod or Tom in the gun world and I'm sure alot of LE watch the shows.

 

[Autolycus]

Just keep your mouth shut until your lawyer comes.

 

[chieftain]

****.

Let your attorney do the talking for you. Public defender will do a better job than you can. In fact, if you say nothing, that same Public defender can probably win your case for you. Only if you don't try to help.

If you need medical care say so. If you have to go to the bath room, say so. If you need medicine says so. That's it.

As an old friend of mine who was a Judge at the time stated, 90% of everyone in prison, their own words put them there. And it didn't make a difference of whether they were guilty or not.

Why do you think it is so hard to convict organized crime figures. They know the magic words. "I want my lawyer!" then they SHUT UP!

My attorney once told me that if at a shooting, say nothing. ****. He said if I insist on having diarrhea of the mouth he would allow me, if I had to say something:

"It was self defense, I need medical care." THEN ****! And frankly that is to much.

Don't chat or make small talk with ANYONE AT THE SCENE OR IN THE JAIL, no one! (the medical care statement, needs to be said whether you are hurt or not. Go to the hospital. Let a Doctor check you out, and make sure there are no immediate emotional issues. If you have any medical problems, let the medical folks know immediately.

Then SHUT UP!

Go figure.

Fred

 

[TwitchALot]

I actually received formal instruction about how to go about talking to an officer after the shooting. You don't always want to talk and spill the beans (and determining whether you should is a fairly detailed process), but suffice to say that there are several rules. The first may be rather surprising if you've never been instructed on what to actually do after a shooting.

1. Never say, "I want my lawyer." The reason being is that this is what almost every scumbag the officer has arrested says. By saying this, you're acting like one of those scumbags and are essentially aggravating the officer. He'll probably be thinking, "God damn, I'm sick and tired of this ****." Don't act like a scumbag or the guilty party if you've done nothing wrong. If you need to end the conversation, trying something like, "Officer, I'm very sorry. I'm just really shaken up right now and I don't think I can tell you anything more useful at this point."

2. DO point out possible witnesses and give the officer a brief explanation of what happened (keep it simple). These guys aren't out to bust your chops- they're there to keep you safe and protect law-abiding citzens. If you didn't do anything wrong, don't act like you did (ie. 1.). That said, don't spill all the beans. Before you do that, you have to determine whether this is the right person to spill the beans to (and that's complicated). If you don't say anything short of, "I want my lawyer," and you're not going to cooperate at all with the officer, what do you think he (or she) is going to think? Do you think guilty people want to talk to the officer and point out witnesses? Guilty people don't like cooperating with officers at all. If you're not guilty, don't act like it.

3. Do treat the officer with respect. Always.

4. If he asks you how many rounds you fired, the answer is "I don't know." The reason being is that in such a stressful situation, you probably won't know for sure. If you say "two," and he finds three, how does that look when he puts it in the report? You may think you fired two, but you won't be sure. So don't try to pretend that you do. "I don't know how many rounds I fired officer." That's it. He might press you ask you why you don't know, are you sure you don't know- the answer is the same- "I don't know."

Those are the only hard and fast rules that I remember off of the top of my head at the moment. There is a right and wrong way to go about things, but the right way is rather detailed, as you might imagine.

 

[sacp81170a]

"Officer, I'm very sorry. I'm just really shaken up right now and I don't think I can tell you anything more useful at this point."

That should be your mantra. S'ing TFU and saying "I want a lawyer" aren't bad ideas, but they do give the officers reason to lump you in the "possible BG" category. Admitting that you're shaken up and unable to give an accurate account is not only reasonable, it indicates your willingness to cooperate... when you are more able to do so.

Taking advice from someone on the internet who is not a lawyer, has never been questioned by the police or who has never been an investigating officer = bad idea.

 

[Snowdiver]

Quote:
"Officer, I'm very sorry. I'm just really shaken up right now and I don't think I can tell you anything more useful at this point."

Great point, I learned something today and it's still before noon.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I have seen it recommended many times that you say something similar to what's been said already "Officer, I'm very sorry. I'm just really shaken up right now and I don't think I can tell you anything more useful at this point."

AND ask to be taken to the hospital to be checked out. That buys you time to calm down and probably isn't a bad idea anyway.

 

[revjen45]

Before you are ever tempted to speak to the police, do a Google search on "police interrogation techniques." It will really open your eyes. Their script is written by Doctorate level psycho-charlatans and your answers will be interpreted by lawyers who spent years learning to twist every word against you. Whether or not they are out to bust your chops depends entirely on the attitudes of the Persecuting Shysters Office. That's where the police get their marching orders. What they think is not as important as whether you give the Prosecutor information to use against you. The cops keep their mouths shut until they talk to a lawyer- you should too. Anything you say can be used against you- they just don't have to tell you that until you have spilled your guts and been placed under arrest. The old line about "If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" is a crock of tripe meant to make you feel guilty and there is a lifetime pass on the short bus and possibly spending years in the company of your new roommate Bubba for those who believe it. (This is not meant to be anti-police or to insult any other members, just to make all aware of the stakes involved.) Retreat may or may not be legally required, but if you can it will save you a lot of grief.

 

[chieftain]

Taking advice from someone on the internet who is not a lawyer, has never been questioned by the police or who has never been an investigating officer = bad idea.

I have been investigated, and I did work for a Sheriff's department and later for Florida DOC, and I play Golf with my Attorney.

I don't know of a LEO that will not tell his friends and family to just SHUT UP. But then you may hurt the sensitivities of the investigating officers. If the sensitivities of the investigating officers is important to you, don't carry a weapon. You have other serious problems.

Trust me, staying quiet will not bother any officer investigating a homicide or attempted homicide. And until cleared that is what your shooting will probably be, unless the bad guy is still alive, then he will be accusing you of attacking a poor harmless and Innocent person.

Just what do you have to add?

I guess these are the same folks that if you are not guilty neither the cops or the local Prosecuting attorney will make a case against you that doesn't exist.

That is exactly what they thought in the DUKE lacrosse case. No one can protect you from a crooked prosecutor. But many prosecutors that don't like guns, or think of you as a vigilante, will come after you for anything they can get a pry bar under. And they will not do anything criminal to hang you. They will use your actions and words to do it.

Do your self a favor. Don't try to remember stuff, you will have trouble remembering under the circumstances.

KISS, ****! And tell your war story at a future IDPA match, not exercise time in general population in the yard.

Or you can listen to the internet geniuses with formal training and advice from lawyers that never handled a criminal case, or are afraid of upsetting the sensitivities of an investigating officer. YOUR CHOICE.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Leanwolf]

REVJEN45 - "Before you are ever tempted to speak to the police, do a Google search on "police interrogation techniques." It will really open your eyes. Their script is written by Doctorate level psycho-charlatans and your answers will be interpreted by lawyers who spent years learning to twist every word against you. Whether or not they are out to bust your chops depends entirely on the attitudes of the Persecuting Shysters Office. That's where the police get their marching orders...."

I could not agree more!!!

Boys and girls, if you get into a self defense shooting, the cops on the scene, and then the detectives, might be 100% in your corner because you shot a bad guy. (Lots of cops would be happy you shot a bad guy. Conversely, there are many cops who do not think you should own a gun.)

BUT....................

The District Attorney just might be a good left wing politically ambitious liberal who hates, loathes, and despises honest citizens who use a gun to protect themselves. (And there are tons of D.As. out there who are exactly like that!! The media love them, too!) The D.A. is gonna use every word you spouted out to the investigating officers, to nail you to the ceiling like a trophy head mounted for admiration!

As others have said here, "KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!" Let your attorney speak for you!!!!

L.W.

 

[Richmond]

fishing

As an old friend of mine who was a Judge at the time stated, 90% of everyone in prison, their own words put them there. And it didn't make a difference of whether they were guilty or not.

As one of my partners says, "Even a fish would not get caught if he kept his mouth shut."

 

[TwitchALot]

I don't know of a LEO that will not tell his friends and family to just SHUT UP. But then you may hurt the sensitivities of the investigating officers. If the sensitivities of the investigating officers is important to you, don't carry a weapon. You have other serious problems.

So your suggestion is to otherwise be uncooperative? Do you really think that having the officers on YOUR side is a bad idea (or alternatively, having them be neutral is a GOOD idea)? Sure, having them be neutral is better than ticking them off. But then, why be neutral when you can get them to be on your side? Why on Earth would you want to make things hard for yourself? No, you don’t need the officers on your side to win a court case, but if it were me, I’d take anything I can get.

If you think that the sensitivities of officers isn’t important, the next time you get pulled over (or the first, as it may be), flip the officer off and cuss at him for being a worthless pig. Then, come back and tell me the “sensitivities of the officers” doesn’t matter.


To address your other point, I don’t know of any reasonable person that would tell others to carry a firearm but not have the slightest clue on how to use it. Simply because the LEO’s you know aren’t going to go into great detail and train their friends and family how to behave in a shooting (and after) doesn’t mean that there isn’t a proper way to behave. For most people, using a gun, let alone facing the legal system after doing so, is a big responsibility and very mentally demanding. So I can understand why LEO’s would advise friends and family to keep their mouth shut- it’s certainly better than saying something stupid.

But at the same time, trained individuals who already have an understanding of firearms the moral and legal consequences of using them should not be given the same advice. Would you try to teach someone new to firearms how to clear type III malfunctions and advanced tactical shooting before teaching them the basics like safety, sight picture, so on? Of course not. I presume that most people here have an understanding of those basics, so I’m not going to treat them with kid gloves.

Trust me, staying quiet will not bother any officer investigating a homicide or attempted homicide. And until cleared that is what your shooting will probably be, unless the bad guy is still alive, then he will be accusing you of attacking a poor harmless and Innocent person.

Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. But between having the officer be neutral, and having the officer on my side, I’d take the latter. You can try to argue that people should keep their mouth shut. And if you have no idea what you're doing, I'd agree. But as far as I'm concerned, we are not talking about "most people" here. We are talking about reasonably well-trained, respectful, law-abiding gun owners who know how to properly use their weapon, and now want to properly know how to face the legal consequences of using that weapon.

Giving them advice meant for "most people" is not applicable, in my opinion.

Or you can listen to the internet geniuses with formal training and advice from lawyers that never handled a criminal case, or are afraid of upsetting the sensitivities of an investigating officer. YOUR CHOICE.

Go figure.

Fred

If you are as experienced as you claim, you must know how the system really works. The most important thing you can do before a shooting is to find the right lawyer. If you find the right lawyer, you should be in good shape (hint: former LEO). No doubt you’ll explain that the LEO community is a very tight one and that lifelong bonds are formed in the LEO community. You’ll explain to us the value of the secretary and the friendships that LEO’s form with the DA and said secretary. And that a case typically doesn’t go to court if the DA isn’t in the mood, and all the other complexities that come along with law.


Tell me- what would be the advantage of having a former LEO lawyer dealing with the same secretary he dealt with while he was in LEO? What would be the advantage of having a former LEO lawyer talking to the DA that he knows from his law enforcement days, and probably plays golf with, about your case?


Oh and Chief? Since you know nothing of how I was trained and where (or who) I got this advice from, I’d appreciate it if you lay off the insults. You can claim whatever you want about your training, but if you believe that the sensitivities of the officers doesn’t matter, then take up my challenge above and tell us how it goes.

 

[HankB]

An attorney once told me that if, instead of giving suspects a Miranda warning, police were required to slap a piece of duct tape over the suspect's mouth . . . convictions would go down by 90%.

Asking for medical attention makes sense - it puts you in the position of asking an LEO for help - only good guys do that - and, who knows, between adrenaline and all the other stress hormones pumping through your system, maybe a medical checkup isn't such a bad idea.

If you're transported, it also gets you AWAY from the scene, as well as any of the BG's friends, reporters & cameramen, etc.

 

[SalTx]

My own personal experience as a leo, in different positions, bears the truth of the above general advice. Do not offer any information other than the necessary needed to i.d. yourself and the "bad guy". Running your mouth and confiding in the arriving officers is bad. I've always advised my family and friends likewise. I've even "mentioned" this option to people at certain scenes (just because it's the law, don't mean it's right, as I saw it) You can tell when good people are about to enter a new, possibly life altering introduction to the new American justice system.

 

[TwitchALot]

My own personal experience as a leo, in different positions, bears the truth of the above general advice. Do not offer any information other than the necessary needed to i.d. yourself and the "bad guy". Running your mouth and confiding in the arriving officers is bad. I've always advised my family and friends likewise. I've even "mentioned" this option to people at certain scenes (just because it's the law, don't mean it's right, as I saw it) You can tell when good people are about to enter a new, possibly life altering introduction to the new American justice system.

As it should. But as I've said, I presume that this forum is inhabited by many a trained gun owner, and as such, the question should not be answered with "general advice" that would be given to most people. Also, I would never suggest spilling the beans without determining whether the officer is the right person to talk to. Even then, you shouldn't say everything. But acting like every other criminal that LEO has arrested and otherwise treating the officer as such is not the best course of action either, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[sacp81170a]

So far, the advice given on this thread has ranged from "****" to "give basic information to let them know you're cooperative and then ****". Both options are far better than "spill your guts and brag what a good shot you were". However, in the subset that includes the first two options, the choice must be made in advance. If you are the type who can't trust yourself in a pressure situation, by all means, take the first option. If you can handle yourself fairly well (and by this I mean you have real world experience in stressful situations, not just your imagination) you are better off with the second option since it makes you look less like a BG (at first blush, anyway).

Also, I would never suggest spilling the beans without determining whether the officer is the right person to talk to.

The officer is never the right person to talk to about the legal consequences immediately after a shooting incident. Resign yourself to the fact that he has no authority to adjudicate the case, he's there to do his job. That job is to secure the scene, collect evidence and make an arrest if he deems it necessary. His job is the first step in the legal process. Cooperating with him in the performance of the job that he's there to do is a good thing, spilling your guts to him without having all your facts straight is not.

The responding officer will make note of anything you say(it will probably be recorded, we do use body mics), and if you later discover that you were mistaken then you will be perceived as lying. If you can't process the whole incident in the few minutes that you will have before the police respond, say, "Officer, I'm very sorry. I'm just really shaken up right now and I don't think I can tell you anything more useful at this point."

That statement is actually good for a couple of reasons. One is that it tends to show the fact that the whole incident was unexpected to you, i.e., there was no premeditation or criminal intent on your part. The other is that it's not something a criminal would normally say, which could influence how the officer writes his report. A couple of pluses, no minuses. **** has no pluses, but it also has no minuses. You have to decide for yourself which course you will take, but you must do so in advance as part of your training.

 

[elkhuntingfool]

point out the brass and the gun, and then say you want to use your right to remain silent...but what happens when they try and interrogate you and try and make you say stuff or threaten you, or what happens if you need to use the restroom or you have medication you need to take or need medical attention do you just ask??

I'm not an LEO - but I would assume that once you envoke your right to counsel - questions 'should' stop and that anything said after you've envoked your right to counsel isn't held against you.

I'm sure I could be wrong, never been in that situation - I just watch a lot of Law and Order

 

[TwitchALot]

The officer is never the right person to talk to about the legal consequences immediately after a shooting incident.

Who said he was? So far as giving a statement, that's fine, given that the officer is the right one and you know what to say. If you don't have any idea, your best bet IS to keep your mouth fairly shut. I challenge the notion, however, that this should always be the case.

 

[Avalanche2082]

thanks for all the comments, there is one thing I've always wondered, maybe as a 3rd option besides **** or give basic info, I guess its from hollywood but try and play the insanity role from the begining that way you don't end up in jail with all the bubbas and you can just go away to hospital and have the possibility of being "cured" of your insanity and getting out and back to the real world. is that worth a try has anyone tried this in the real world, not trying to upset anyone here but you see it on movies and just wondering if its a plausable option.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

play the insanity role from the begining that way you don't end up in jail with all the bubbas and you can just go away to hospital and have the possibility of being "cured" of your insanity and getting out and back to the real world.

I can only assume I don't understand your question since that sounds like a terrible idea. Really, truly terrible. Are you actually asking if you should pretend to be temporarily insane to avoid being booked? I have no idea which movie you've seen, but I haven't seen the one where they risk being involuntarily committed in order to avoid "going downtown."

 

[sacp81170a]

The officer is never the right person to talk to about the legal consequences immediately after a shooting incident.

Who said he was? So far as giving a statement, that's fine, given that the officer is the right one and you know what to say.

Not trying to contradict you, just to clarify. From some of the posts I've been seeing some folks believe a responding officer has some kind of ability to determine whether charges should be filed or not. (Edited to add: so long as you commit no offenses against the officer, such as resisting arrest or obstructing his investigation.) That power is the exclusive domain of the prosecuting attorney, so giving the officer on the scene any more information than is necessary to complete his immediate job is both a waste of your time and dangerous to your defense later on. This is not to say that he won't try to get some information out of you... he's trying to determine if he has solid grounds for an arrest. Don't volunteer information hoping to avoid a trip to jail, especially if it's going to come back and bite you later.

Accept the fact that the LEO may very well arrest you if you don't give him enough (or any) information. Also realize that being arrested doesn't mean you're guilty of a crime. I think a lot of people talk too much because they're afraid of going to jail overnight. The irony is that they then talk themselves into a long jail term. The police officer is not the judge, he's not the DA. Let him do his job, just don't get him confused with those in the system who will be far more important to you later. I've had lots of people talk themselves into being arrested when my first inclination was that no crime had been committed, or that I didn't have enough PC to arrest. YMMV, but's that's what I've seen on the street.

 

[TwitchALot]

Not trying to contradict you, just to clarify. From some of the posts I've been seeing some folks believe a responding officer has some kind of ability to determine whether charges should be filed or not. (Edited to add: so long as you commit no offenses against the officer, such as resisting arrest or obstructing his investigation.) That power is the exclusive domain of the prosecuting attorney, so giving the officer on the scene any more information than is necessary to complete his immediate job is both a waste of your time and dangerous to your defense later on. This is not to say that he won't try to get some information out of you... he's trying to determine if he has solid grounds for an arrest. Don't volunteer information hoping to avoid a trip to jail, especially if it's going to come back and bite you later.

Accept the fact that the LEO may very well arrest you if you don't give him enough (or any) information. Also realize that being arrested doesn't mean you're guilty of a crime. I think a lot of people talk too much because they're afraid of going to jail overnight. The irony is that they then talk themselves into a long jail term. The police officer is not the judge, he's not the DA. Let him do his job, just don't get him confused with those in the system who will be far more important to you later. I've had lots of people talk themselves into being arrested when my first inclination was that no crime had been committed, or that I didn't have enough PC to arrest. YMMV, but's that's what I've seen on the street.

Absolutely correct. My point was, however, that although having the officer be neutral is certainly better than having him not like you, having the officer on your side is even better than that. Further still, there IS a proper way to act and go about things immediately after and during the arrest. If that's unfamiliar with you (a general you), then by all means, keep your mouth shut. However, as I said- that is not the only option, and not necessarily the best one (although in most cases, keeping your mouth shut is probably a better idea).

 

[chieftain]

If you think that the sensitivities of officers isn’t important, the next time you get pulled over (or the first, as it may be), flip the officer off and cuss at him for being a worthless pig. Then, come back and tell me the “sensitivities of the officers” doesn’t matter.

Insulting someone is not about sensitivity. It is about being stupid. I did not insult you. I said you are wrong.

Just as I would not insult an investigating officer. I can say very politely, "I choose to remain silent". Maybe you can't, but I can.

If you have been "formally" trained, tell us how you would protect the sensitivity of the investigating officer to your advantage? You have yet to tell us what you know. What should someone say to the investigating officer? Tell us. Don't keep us in suspense.

As to knowing what to say? My Attorney friend, the one I play golf with, told me the guys who think they know what to say are often other lawyers. Their biggest problem for their own defense attorney's is they talk to much before their defense attorney's get there. After all they are lawyers and know what to say.

Sheesh!

Twitchalot, find another criminal attorney or LEO on this board that will agree with you. I don't know how many lawyers there are here, but there are a bunch of LEO's. I am sure they will be glad to jump in.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[jeepmor]

What you don't say can't be used against you. **** works for me.

 

[Baba Louie]

Class, Repeat these words with me... you should know them by heart...

"You have the RIGHT to remain SILENT. What you say, CAN and WILL be used against you in a court of law."

Ever hear these words before? Anyone? Class?

Do you think that those words are made up or said just to sound good on TV shows or movies? Unless the act of self defense occurred inside your home at 0 dark thirty and you're standing there in your P.J.s, the first officers on the scene only know that "something" happened and you're one of the parties involved w/ the other party who is lying there leaking, not looking so good at the moment, well, he may not feel like talking too much. (but then again, he or his friends, might)

Have a good Attorney. Brief statement as noted above if possible. He was going to kill me. You shot in self defense. Need a Dr. Need my Attorney.

Ever have a good adrenalin dump zipping thru your system??? Ever shoot that .38/.357/9mm/.40/.45 without your hearing protection on at the same time? (sounds like a pop, but does the damage anyway) The Officer's lips are moving but why can't you hear him so well? Ever notice that everything around you is in slow motion and your vision is now crystal clear but a second ago all you saw was THE GUN and now that you come to think about it your knees are kinda shaky and did you really just pee your pants? Did you really ever ever ever in your life really think that you would really shoot someone and that it would really happen so fast and you still really can't believe it happened, You just don't believe it? You feel like you've gotta tell somebody... something...right now!

Have a good attorney ready. After a self defense moment where lethal force was successfully applied to another human by yourself, you're probably not going to be your usual chipper alert self who enjoys this dry comedy we call life for a moment or two. Let him/her do 99.99% of any talking that needs to be done. Get to a doctor. You are not in your right mind. The Mark of Cain is upon you whether you like it or not... you just shot someone.

So class, listen to Mr. Ayoob, because what you say, can, and will, be used against you in a court of law. You can take that to the bank. What does that little old 5th Amendment say again? Parts of it are still valid I hope.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.