What to say to 911 after a self-defence incident

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This will not be a factor in most self-defense shootings involving a trained CHL who will use their gun to maximum effectiveness, but all this raises an interesting question: what happens when the BG is still alive, or even conscious, but through your actions or other circumstances cannot leave? Everyone's interested in what they as the shooter would say and generally assume a dead or mortally-wounded BG, but what about what a BG would say if given the chance? If the BG's got any brains he'll work to confuse the police as much as possible on their arrival about your identities (he'll do his damndest to remember the information you give 911 and parrot it to the cops) and raise the tension level. If the BG is still conscious, you'd be pretty dumb not to be covering him, which when the police get there is automatically going to be high tension. If he starts saying "I'm the homeowner" or any of the stuff we're advising the shooter to say, or gets his own version of the story in first, and you, pumped full of adrenaline, start arguing with the BG, the police are going to be VERY nervous.

The BG's later statement is likely to make many references to "that maniac with the gun" and "he provoked me". That latter phrase is especially damaging if you use Castle Doctrine as an affirmative defense. You shot the BG in your home, because he forcibly entered and had no right to be there. All the BG has to say is "he provoked me" or words to that effect and, in the absence of witnesses to the contrary, you can no longer claim Castle Doctrine as it does not apply to a situation of "mutual combat" where the shooter retreated into their home. That means you may be going to jail for a long time if the BG can sing a good song. You may be going to jail even longer if someone working with a now-dead BG (i.e. getaway driver), or even a disgruntled anti-gun or anti-you neighbor, can give a good eulogy for the dead man. Sure it's perjury; you however have no proof they're lying if the evidence or witnesses for your side don't say so.
 
i wonder how LE would like it if the standard practice was to disarm and handcuff LE personnel involved in a supposed self defense shooting?
 
ilbob said:
i wonder how LE would like it if the standard practice was to disarm and handcuff LE personnel involved in a supposed self defense shooting?

I'm going to go out on a thin limb here and guess that you've never been a cop?

While I'm not a big fan of law enforcement as it exists today, I'm also not dumb enough to even remotely consider "cuffing and stuffing" a cop who just fired his or her weapon in either their defense, or in defense of an innocent citizen.

But having been a cop for a good number of years and in a number of different judicial districts, I can't say that I've seen any place where it was standard practice to disarm and handcuff a private citizen involved in a self-defense shooting.

Taking their weapon? Yeah. It's called ballistics and investigation. Do I like it? No. But having been involved in on-the-job shootings, I had to hand over MY service weapon--and that too was standard procedure, so don't think that there is a double standard.

Jeff
 
But having been a cop for a good number of years and in a number of different judicial districts, I can't say that I've seen any place where it was standard practice to disarm and handcuff a private citizen involved in a self-defense shooting.
You seem to have been working for a more enlightened LE agency. Most of the other LEOs that have posted here said you should expect to be cuffed and otherwise treated as a criminal, at least for some period of time.

I understand the need to do ballistics checks and such, and you can't do that without the gun, so taking the gun used is necessary.
 
there are many gradations in "to disarm"

it might be taking the gun away for ballistic comparison

here in Belgium, they revoke all you gun licences and take away all you guns to "deep storage" until the trail/investigation is over. And I might say, waiting a total of 4-6 years until you get cleared is not that exceptional. A lawyer-buddy of mine did a fair number of cases where the court wouldn't release the guns back to its owner, even until after the trail/investigation.
you aren't allowed to buy other guns while indicted or under investigation.

You really need to be sure that the BG is worth it, and shooting is THE LAST alternative before pulling the trigger, because if you shoot, you are in a big pile of manure :(

Its also often cheaper to kill than to wound. If the shooting was not 100% right (which is possible, with that many restrictions), you end up with a bill to pay. If you wound him, you probably end up with a life-long "disability" debt (250 to over a grand a month).However, If you kill him, you pay a fixed dum, depending on circumstances, between 7.5k and 50k.

Oh, the socialist state of Belgium :(

btw, hollow points are forbidden, you get get them in other countries, but if you shoot someone with them, you will end up with (premeditated) murder and hell of a civil suit.



sorry for the rant :p
 
I'm not sure that peace officers in MT would take away guns and/or summarily arrest a citizen after a defensive gun use.

There was a case a couple years ago where a homeowner shot and killed an escaped fugitive. I wasn't there, but the newspaper report was basically "good job" by the police. What's the point anyway - they know who the bad guy is, they know who shot him, and ballistics tests cost money which isn't in great supply in small towns and rural sheriff departments.

Another case I read about was in eastern MT where a landowner held a fugitive at gunpoint until law officers arrived to take custody. Again, I wasn't there, but it was another "good job" announced by the police. It wouldn't be very good PR to be handcuffing your hero of the day.

I guess I should just ask one of them some day what their SOP is. I'm sure though it depends a lot on the obvious circumstances. Most everybody around here at least somewhat knows each other.

I might not even call 911 at all, but rather call dispatch on my VFD radio ;)
 
What about the wife?

What about this wrinkle on the scenario?

The police have arrived at your home after you've shot a home invader, and the bad guy is on the way to the hospital or the morgue. You've followed all the good advice here, invoked your right to silence and asked for a lawyer, and then the cops start questioning your wife. She's a witness, not a suspect, and therefore can't invoke her right to silence, yet she's probably as shaken as you are, and is just as likely as you would be to ramble on and say something that could be twisted around by a Mike Nifong prosecutor or an ambulance chasing PI lawyer.

Can any of the armchair lawyers comment on this?
 
Mine would have seen nothing... only heard. Besides when I tell her to not say anything until our lawyer gets here she will be smart enough to clam up. NO witness can be coerced into making a statement. That my friend is a police state!
 
"My house has just been broken into while we were sleeping"
"My wife and I are in fear for our lives"
"Send EMS at our location"
"My wife and I are both wearing pajamas, with body armor, holding AK-47s"
 
NO witness can be coerced into making a statement.

Witnesses are coerced into making statements all the time.

Both sides in court can compel witnesses to testify under penalty of going to jail. the only real out for a witness is if he invokes his 5th amendment right not to testify against himself, and even then a witness can be granted immunity and compelled to testify since he is no longer at risk once immunity is granted.
 
ilbob said;
You seem to have been working for a more enlightened LE agency. Most of the other LEOs that have posted here said you should expect to be cuffed and otherwise treated as a criminal, at least for some period of time.

Let's inject some reality into the conversation. Most self defense actions are not clear cut, it's most often pretty hard to sort out who was the good guy and who was the bad guy. Why? Because most self defense shootings and stabbings result from a situation where it's unclear at the start who was the aggressor. The situation where the victim is totally obvious from the immediate evidence available is pretty rare. Online gun forums are the only place where clear cut defensive uses of deadly force happen with any frequency. In real life, they usually evolve from a combative situation where it's not immediately clear as to who was the actual victim. So yes, in that case, expect to be disarmed and cuffed until things are sorted out. If you are fortunate enough that your use of deadly force is as clear cut as this example from TallPine;

Originally posted by TallPine;
Another case I read about was in eastern MT where a landowner held a fugitive at gunpoint until law officers arrived to take custody. Again, I wasn't there, but it was another "good job" announced by the police. It wouldn't be very good PR to be handcuffing your hero of the day.

Then you can expect the same response from the police that the landowner got in TallPine's post. However, if your defensive use of deadly force is like the majority of the cases, expect to be treated as a suspect until the police figure out what really happened.

According to the 2006 UCR, civilians killed somewhere around 240 criminals in justifiable homicides. I would bet money that there are a lot of people who faced charges who honestly believe in their heart of hearts that their use of deadly force was in fact self defense.

Jeff
 
PLAN YOUR GAME WELL IN ADVANCE. Know what to say, how to say it, and say no more. Make it clear that YOU are the victim.

Furthermore, know how to point out obvious facts to witnesses. It's not tampering; you're not telling them to say anything. Simply point out things like:

"See that bullet hole there where he tried to kill me?" while you stand where you were standing at the time.

"Did you hear what he said? I heard him say "<insert what the goblin said>?"

That sort of thing. Take the time to think about it now. But under NO circumstances should you lie to 911 or the police, or start telling people what to say. Also, NEVER go into blabber mode; don't apologize and don't second guess yourself. YOU are the VICTIM, they INITIATED VIOLENCE against you or your family.

Finally, FIND A PRO-GUN/SELF-DEFENSE attorney NOW. You may not have to retain him or her; just keep their card next to your CCW license.
 
According to the 2006 UCR, civilians killed somewhere around 240 criminals in justifiable homicides. I would bet money that there are a lot of people who faced charges who honestly believe in their heart of hearts that their use of deadly force was in fact self defense.
No doubt. I would bet a fair number of them were engaged in nefarious activities when they had their SD moment. It might even have been SD, but it is hard to claim SD when a drug deal goes wrong.

Most of the things discussed here though seem oriented around situations that are fairly clear cut. Home break-ins and such. One would think it is a lot easier to decide who is who in such a situation.
 
ilbob said;

Most of the things discussed here though seem oriented around situations that are fairly clear cut. Home break-ins and such. One would think it is a lot easier to decide who is who in such a situation.

Again, those fairly clear cut situations are not the norm. The last self defense situation I investigated involved a stabbing not a shooting, it involved two close friends who were both highly intoxicated. I'm not going to say that clear cut situations like the typical gun board topic of "the bad guy is standing in my kitchen, what should I do?" threads, because that situation as common as it is on the internet, isn't all that common in real life. In real life, most self defense situations where deadly force is used involves people engaged in nefarious activities, people who get into an altercation with another person that borders on mutual combat usually when alcohol or other intoxicants are involved.

The typical rookie cop's (and judging by what's posted here) CCW holder's fantasy of standing in line at the convenience store when the bad guys come in to rob the place is pretty much just that, fantasy. In today's world you aren't likely to use deadly force to defend yourself at all. But if you are compelled to do that, it's most likely not going to be in a clear cut case. It's more likely to be a conflict of some kind where you are pushed into using deadly force. And those situations are not often easy to figure out immediately. That's why myself and other officers here say expect to be treated like a suspect. The days of three or four people in the saloon telling the sheriff; "It was self defense, the dead guy drew first." and the sheriff saying; "Well, there were witnesses that say it's self defense, that's good enough for me." probably only really existed in the movies. Those things don't happen these days at all.

Jeff
 
In real life, most self defense situations where deadly force is used involves people engaged in nefarious activities, people who get into an altercation with another person that borders on mutual combat usually when alcohol or other intoxicants are involved.
I am not one bit surprised.
 
Your points from the LE POV are well-taken Jeff and I agree the odds of a clear-cut self defense case happening in general are low. However, from the law-abiding CCW holder's POV, if they don't get intoxicated or hang out at rough bars or engage in nefarious activities then the clear-cut self defense scenario is the most likely one for them. Hence, the preoccupation with discussing those on gun forums.

I think to a large extent we make our own odds. It is important to understand that what the law-abiding CCW holder thinks is obvious (self-defense) won't necessarily be to the LE officer because of what they see and deal with day to day.
 
Witnesses are coerced into making statements all the time.

Both sides in court can compel witnesses to testify under penalty of going to jail. the only real out for a witness is if he invokes his 5th amendment right not to testify against himself, and even then a witness can be granted immunity and compelled to testify since he is no longer at risk once immunity is granted.

Perhaps I should have said forced instead of coerced - by a police officer. Obviously I was referring to a possible victim of a crime... not some called before a grand jury.:rolleyes:
 
"i just got home and found this guy on the floor in the foyer, it looks like he fell down my stairs and landed on some bullets"
 
I wouldn't hang up on 911. No need to go into the circumstances of the shooting with the operator, but I would answer any direct question asked.

I would not have my gun on me when the police arrived (unless I was guarding a wounded bg). The gun would be on the ground, in plain site.

I would give a general outline of what occurred to the PO. (eg: "He broke in through the front door, I feared for my life, he came at me and I fired"). This will give them a sense of what occurred.

I would ask for medical attention, tell them I intend to cooperate fully and that I would like my attorney present when I gave a statement.

Over the years I've had to give and read depositions a bunch of times. Despite every lawyer telling the individual giving the deposition to just answer the specific question asked, most folks can't help themselves and feel a need to elaborate in great detail. And the devil is in the detail. Don't give a detailed statement without a lawyer present.

Hope I never have to find out what I'd really do.

Oh, and I do think of the Police as my friends. Never been mean to me.
 
handcuff everybody involved in a shooting incident!

http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/tct/2006/03/21/0603210366.php

No Charges Filed Yet In Shooting Deaths
Blanchardville Killings Likely Drug-related

Tuesday, March 21, 2006
By Steven Elbow The Capital Times

Lafayette County sheriff's investigators were still investigating the shooting deaths of three men last Thursday in rural Blanchardville, but would not confirm that anyone would be charged.

"Any charging decision will be based on the reports we submit to the District Attorney's Office," Sheriff Scott Pedley said today.

Two men who reportedly broke into Bradley Fandrich's home were gunned down at about 3 a.m. by Fandrich at his home on County N in the town of Argyle. Fandrich then shot himself through the head after police found Oxycodone and marijuana at the home and began to conduct a body search on him.

The break-in appeared to be related to drug trafficking, including a large, concealed marijuana-growing operation on Fandrich's property, which authorities discovered Saturday and which contained plants estimated to be worth a half-million dollars.
 
first words.

The most important statement is I was afraid for my life there was no doubt in my mind he was going to kill me those should be the first words you speak.

Then shut your mouth and ask for a lawyer .
 
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