What Would it Take to Get YOU out to a Bullseye ("Conventional Pistol" Event?

[taliv]

i just can't bring myself to shoot bullseye pistol. i love competition and socializing at the range, but i prefer practical stuff. even if i had lots of free time to participate in another sport, i wouldn't choose bullseye. i'd rather do F-class or benchrest.

to me, pistol is a tool (no more exciting than a hammer to me) and used for defensive purposes (close range, large targets, speed is critical)

so having a pistol accuracy competition to me makes as much sense as racing dumptrucks or having a screwdriver throwing contest. it's just not right!

 

[btg3]

Grump, what motivated you to ask? Trying to bring back the bullseye era?

 

[Grump]

Grump, what motivated you to ask? Trying to bring back the bullseye era?

The NRA Director of Competitions posted an inquiry a little while ago on the Bullseye-L forum, asking about ideas to stem the tide of losing shooters and attracting new shooters.

There was and is major concern over the heavy labor load at the National Matches with the way things have been done over the past 85 or so years, which means that the costs of running the pistol Nationals exceeds the entry fee revenues.

Switching to electronic targets and automatic scoring like what you see at the Olympics is one idea. Whether those systems will last enough to be cheaper *in the long run* than replacing the turning target systems and buying all those targets and backers is beyond the scope of this inquiry, but there is great promise of such a change making matches run much faster and take far less paid and volunteer labor.

But there is great hue and cry over there about abandoning the tradition of turning targets, even with the factor that the Nationals have for decades been a little bit different from most other NRA Registered and Approved matches (mostly the lack of covered firing points and extra prohibitions on accessories like sweatbands, or so I'm told).

Well, I'm wondering if catering to the traditionalists (a very vocal group) runs the risk of keeping things so much the same that their replacements never bother to show up. Sort of a "split market" question.

So my motivation in asking here is to get input from the people who are NOT going to Bullseye Pistol matches. I understand the hazards inherent in the "intent to buy" type questions, but if there is ever to be any growth in Bullseye, the obstacles to participation need to be identified and those that can reasonably addressed, should be removed.

I'm sure it's a LOT more than people just waiting for an invitation and a helpful buddy to guide them along.

So this first inquiry is trying to find out what keeps likely participants away. Listen FIRST before entertaining changes or even crafting promotional efforts.

Thanks!

 

[Sam1911]

Well that's a very well thought through thread premise.

I don't think minor procedure changes are going to bring in large numbers of shooters who don't participate now, but they might make it easier on those who do anyway, and might help prevent the new folks who do come out from getting put off by the work and time commitment.

 

[243winxb]

attracting new shooters

To get new shooters interested on the local level, start small with the 22 NMC, using a handicap system. This puts new shoots on the same level with high masters. Shoot 1 night/day a week. Each shooter puts a $1 in the pot for the winner.

 

[twofifty]

Grump, that there is some sound thinking.

It often happens in the shooting sports that established shooters -those who run the matches- do not notice the external or societal changes that ultimately, ever so slowly, negatively affect their chosen sport.

The use of scoring technology will speed things up, a good thing. People may not have the patience to wait around while scoring is painstakingly tabulated and averaged by handheld calculator.

Is there any way to shorten the time allotted to each course of fire? We live in a fast moving society, where work and play and commuting and family time have to be shoehorned into short days. Any sport that does not adapt to these time pressures is bound to see recruitment and retention rates crater.

Finally people want to have FUN in their spare time...and watching paint dry (i.e. another Bullseye squad on the line) is not that entertaining.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I concur with the idea of shooting more 900s - especially with rimfire. You can buy enough match-grade .22LR for one of those for $10 (if you buy in bulk). Centerfire ammo is around 7 times that.

I shoot BE...though it's low on the priority list. Top priority is black powder, which I shoot for the U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team. Then air & free pistol.

 

[taliv]

i think there is a major factor that is overlooked

NRA matches are like the ivory tower rules. one set of rules to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

essentially, that means no innovation


if you compare that to 3gun and action style shooting, you will find a LOT of clubs run outlaw. house rules. A local club does "IDPA" but they change a lot of the rules due to local preferences. The result is imho, more innovation and more interest. it's sort of a free market where if a match director puts on a good product, he has a popular match, and if not, gets the boot or another one pops up.

It's like the catholics vs protestants. There's usually one catholic church in town and 50 protestant ones that all have their own beliefs.


here's my point... if some dude goes into a gun store and buys wacky brand x of pistol and wants to shoot it, is he going to go to an NRA match? no. he knows he would be a pariah and the pistol wouldn't be competitive. instead, he goes to a local unbranded match. every week, the local range near my house has an informal bullseye league. they shoot "positional" but they change hte positions every week. one week you can lean against the wall. next week it's one handed, or whatever. They do two matches that take maybe an hour. one pistol, one rifle. I think it's like $5 entry and winner takes most of it.

it's not that people don't like the NRA. If the NRA took their heads out of their butts, people would shoot their events.


Here's the net: If the NRA wants to be successful they need to focus on organizing events and marketing (something they're good at) and let the individuals come up with their own rules.

Everybody complains when the NRA calls them or sends letters asking for money. Imagine if the NRA called you and said, hey Bob, there's a little pistol match a few miles from you next weekend. It's going to be fun. You should go.

 

[Grump]

Sam1911 posted:

"I don't think minor procedure changes are going to bring in large numbers of shooters who don't participate now, but they might make it easier on those who do anyway, and might help prevent the new folks who do come out from getting put off by the work and time commitment."

Don't the economists call that something like the "opportunity cost" of a chosen activity or purchase.

Now, since it's been years since I shot an IPSC match, what's the typical time commitment on club match day? 8 a.m. to noon? 9 a.m. to noon? 9 to 3? I'm not sure that anyone other than highpower rifle shooters would turn out for a 7 a.m. match...

 

[Howard Roark]

I’m probably the only person to ever quit shooting IPSC and go to Highpower. Started out shooting F class and quickly changed to conventional, then across the course. I also shoot smallbore prone and silhouette.

NRA matches have their place as do the “run and gun” games. There is no one size fits all in shooting. The key is for people that are interested to pick one and try it, an open mind and humility helps.

To answer the op’s question, more time is what would get me to shoot bullseye. I would love to attempt to become double distinguished. My first priority is across the course shooting because I like it with silhouette second because it gives me offhand practice in match conditions.

Everything involves opportunity costs. With only so many weekends to shoot or spend time with family I have limited my time on a range to two or rarely three weekend days a month. One XTC and one silhouette match.

 

[ATLDave]

they might make it easier on those who do anyway, and might help prevent the new folks who do come out from getting put off by the work and time commitment."

Don't the economists call that something like the "opportunity cost" of a chosen activity or purchase.

Hmm, I'm not sure that's precisely right. The opportunity cost is what other things you might have done with the time (or money or other resources) put into something. So for bullseye, the opportunity cost is whatever someone would have been doing while they were at the match. If they were going to watch TV, the opportunity cost is a few hours of TV. If they were going to go to the gym, then that's the opportunity cost. If they only have the budget or time to do one shooting competition per week, and they substitute bullseye for USPSA, then their USPSA match is their opportunity cost.

Maybe that's what you were ultimately saying.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Grump, I read (and participated in) that thread on the Bullseye-L forum.

We need some advertising. Push the idea that the precision events build a solid foundation of skill. Also push the idea that you get to shoot a lot more.

 

[btg3]

Grump says it's an accuracy-centered game.
Mike OTDP says it's a precision event.

Accuracy is the ability to group shots around the bullseye, disregarding group size.
Precision is the ability to shoot a tight group, but maybe not on the bullseye.

I think you're both right!

 

[BullfrogKen]

I’m probably the only person to ever quit shooting IPSC and go to Highpower. Started out shooting F class and quickly changed to conventional, then across the course. I also shoot smallbore prone and silhouette.

Howard, I left an action pistol discipline to shoot High Power Rifle as well. The days are much, much longer.


What would get me to shoot Bullseye?

Well we had a bullseye pistol league at my club, and they were frankly jerks. I mean they were really hostile and detrimental to the overall business of the organization. They self-selected, and many of the decent people they had on that league left because no one gave the jerks the ultimatum - act decently or don't come back.

So the decent people left. There's no way I'd shoot with those individuals.


But the sport itself? It takes specialized equipment good for little else but the sport. The AR15 I use across the course, and the match rifles other guys use, are very specialized and can't be used for anything else well but that competition. And just like Bullseye pistol, the rifle side of the sport is not what it used to be, either.

It takes an investment in both equipment and time. And lets face it, for those who really want to have a fun in a sport, bullseye competitions really aren't a whole lot of fun. Not the kind of fun an action pistol match is.

Bullseye matches are the same target, the same course of fire, over and over. There's a challenge there, and it's a slow dedicated process to get there. During the growth process it's not much fun, and a lot of frustration.


What can be done to help? I have no idea.

Times have changed. The shooting world has changed. The concealed carry movement has influenced the reason why people own pistols, and opened up entirely new worlds in terms of competitions built around that interest. Unfortunately the NRA may just have to change the rules, and its sport to stay relevant. You'll see a whole lot of resistance to that.


The CMP has seen great success with the "Games" portion of the matches at Nationals, and at clubs back home shooting those Garand matches. They're fun. They're still a bullseye sport, but they're at reduced ranges and more generous scoring rings. We've seen quite a few guys bring a Garand out to a vintage CMP match, get hooked, and move up to the more challenging aspects of the more formal NRA and CMP matches.

The participation is still not what it once was, but the sport isn't on death's door, either. The CMP did quite a bit to spark interest in a sport that had been languishing. There's probably a lesson in there.


If you think it's tough finding a range to host bullseye pistol, try finding ones than can host the NRA and CMP rifle matches.

 

[ljnowell]

I don't think minor procedure changes are going to bring in large numbers of shooters who don't participate now, but they might make it easier on those who do anyway, and might help prevent the new folks who do come out from getting put off by the work and time commitment.

The work and time commitment is part of being a good bullseye shooter. Thousands and thousands of rounds downrange. Its easy in my league to see really practices and takes it serious and who doesn't.

We all want more shooters in the sport but if they arent going to commit time and work they probably shouldnt bother. Bullseye is difficult, yet very rewarding.

 

[ljnowell]

But the sport itself? It takes specialized equipment good for little else but the sport. The AR15 I use across the course, and the match rifles other guys use, are very specialized and can't be used for anything else well but that competition. And just like Bullseye pistol, the rifle side of the sport is not what it used to be, either.

It doesnt take that much specialized equipment. I have used a standard stock S&W 686, irons. Later I added a cheap 35 dollar reddot. I see lots of box stock 1911s. As far as 22s, plenty of cheap rugers competing. Eventually most people upgrade, like I did, if you stick with it. You certainly dont need 1k dollar comp guns to start though.

 

[Sam1911]

We all want more shooters in the sport but if they arent going to commit time and work they probably shouldnt bother.

Oh, of course. We, in all our various disciplines, would like every shooter who comes out to be dedicated to their practice and also put in the time to help make the sport go.

But then we also want to see our sports grow (not shrink into nothingness) and wonder why we can't get more folks to come out.

Want more folks to come out? Make it easier for them and less of a commitment. Want more commitment? Accept that only a few shooters are going to give that much of themselves so much. Lots of things in the world to spend time on, and if someone looks at your sport and says, "fun, worthwhile, but I can't devote hundreds of hours a year to this...wife, kids, work, etc." then you're going to find a lot more people who just "probably shouldn't bother."

Want them to "bother" coming out? Make it easier for them so they can without disrupting their lives any more than absolutely necessary. Want only the committed? Accept that only a very, very, few will ever be so.

The OP is asking how to get more folks out to the matches and your answer is really, pretty much, "we don't want them anyway."

 

[Sam1911]

Put another way, if you want to grow the sport you have to be willing to carry more weight on your own shoulders to make that happen. (Working more at set-up and tear-down, accepting changes to help more people to participate, etc.)

I work REALLY hard on setting up and running the best IDPA match I can once a month. It is a large investment of time my family would much rather I didn't take from them. I have about 10 guys who I know I can count on to help me make it come off well that Sunday morning. I've got another probably 60-80 people who might, will, won't, could, should, can't, perhaps, sometimes show up to shoot the match. And a world of folks I'd be very happy to see come out someday if I can cajole them into it. I'm working for all those folks. I don't expect anything in return but the pleasure of their attendance. (And their match fees for the group, of course, though a lot of that goes to the lunch we serve them.)

Now some other day of the month, I might enjoy a bullseye match. I can't devote myself to hundreds of hours of practice for that. I can't take another whole day out of the month to hang out shooting and working it either. If I come out it needs to be a pretty minimal investment of time. I'm coming out to try my skill and enjoy myself. I know I'm leaning on those who do the work. I'll pay the match fee and be the best, most polite and helpful competitor I can be, but this isn't what I've dedicated my life to doing.

Do you want me at your match? Or should I just not bother?

 

[btg3]

The 2 clubs where I shoot IDPA have the opposite problem: too many shooters. But it has become a cash cow for those clubs -- such that some nice upgrades have been made to the rustic facilities.

I like to shoot matches that do not last thru lunch. Best days for that are cold and/or wet which suit me, but keep others at home.

In other words, my level of commitment is $15, a short drive, and a quick match. I have other interests/duties to occupy the afternoon.

An indoor range here has a nice following for some weeknight matches (various) that have zero impact on the weekend. They get it done in 2 or 3 hours and go home.

 

[MrBorland]

Something I think bullseye can do to help themselves is market the similarities, rather than the differences between it and, say, practical shooting. Both camps see themselves as occupying opposite ends of the shooting spectrum and tend to poo-poo the other, but in today's environment, it does more damage to bullseye than to the practical shooting sports.

I've been thinking about something Brian Enos once offered on his forum. Enos is one of the great practical shooters, and literally wrote the book: "Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals" is still held as the definitive guide to the sport. Anyhow, on a thread about the fundamentals, BE once opined he thought he could've chosen a better book title, since "you never really go 'beyond fundamentals' - you just apply them better and faster."

The better one applies the fundamentals, the better one shoots, no matter the discipline. Practical shooting is popular, and may always dominate bullseye shooting. Yet if some portion of bullseye were to aggressively market themselves to the practical crowd using BE's argument above (i.e. that it's effective cross-training), I'm betting participation, at least in the off-season, would grow some.

BTW, Grump - I'm a practical shooter, but see the value in target shooting. As I mentioned, I'd love to try bullseye shooting a whirl. I practice my practical skills at the range, but I threw my MkIII in my bag on my last visit, and finished up my session with a pair of 25 yard 10-shot strings - a 95-2x and a 96-4x (shown). There's room for improvement, to be sure, and I'll keep working at it, but many practical shooters are certainly capable of far better accuracy than they're often given credit for.

 

[243winxb]

Bullseye Pistol

At one time the winner got cash, then it became NRA metals or NRA Award Points. Cash is better IMO.

 

[Old Fuff]

MrBorland

You didn't mention how much time you took to fire those 2, 25-yard strings, and that could make a lot of difference.

In any case the points you made concerning fudamentals is the same I pointed earlier, and we are in complete agreement.

That said, at most bullseye .22 matches the Expert and Master class winner usually shoot a clean 100/10 shot score in timed (2/20 seconds/5 shots) and rapid (2/10 seconds/5 shots) fire, and win by breaking ties by the highest x-ring count.

But you are coming along nicely, and when things get back to normal .22 RF amminition can facilitate a lot of affordable practice.

 

[ljnowell]

Oh, of course. We, in all our various disciplines, would like every shooter who comes out to be dedicated to their practice and also put in the time to help make the sport go.

But then we also want to see our sports grow (not shrink into nothingness) and wonder why we can't get more folks to come out.

Want more folks to come out? Make it easier for them and less of a commitment. Want more commitment? Accept that only a few shooters are going to give that much of themselves so much. Lots of things in the world to spend time on, and if someone looks at your sport and says, "fun, worthwhile, but I can't devote hundreds of hours a year to this...wife, kids, work, etc." then you're going to find a lot more people who just "probably shouldn't bother."

Want them to "bother" coming out? Make it easier for them so they can without disrupting their lives any more than absolutely necessary. Want only the committed? Accept that only a very, very, few will ever be so.

The OP is asking how to get more folks out to the matches and your answer is really, pretty much, "we don't want them anyway."

That wasnt even the point. The point is that if you want to be competitive than you need to practice. That goes for any pistol discipline. I see a lot of people in this thread with the attitude that "If I cant just pick up any gun and be competitive my first time out it isnt worth it to me."

Those people are right, it isn't worth it to them. If you want to be competitive you had best be ready to put in time. Bullseye, by nature, isnt a pick it up once or twice a year sport. It's like 1000 yard rifle shooting. It takes practice and effort.

 

[Sam1911]

That wasnt even the point.

Oh. ..oh? The OP asked "What would it take to get you out to a bullseye event?"

I thought you were responding to that.

Obviously no one will be in the running for awards in any discipline they don't practice.

I see a lot of people in this thread with the attitude that "If I cant just pick up any gun and be competitive my first time out it isnt worth it to me."

I hadn't noticed that. Maybe I should read the thread again.

Bullseye, by nature, isnt a pick it up once or twice a year sport. It's like 1000 yard rifle shooting. It takes practice and effort.

Are there any sports like that? I mean there are sports that are fun just to participate in, whether you've spent a lot of time practicing or not. And I'll grant you that bullseye pistol isn't one of those. (Though a lot of folks feel the "practical" sports are so.)

But I'm not sure there are any sports, from marbles, to frisbee, to curling, to shooting sports SASS, IDPA, USPSA, Conventional Pistol, IMHSA, PPC, International Free Pistol, and on and on -- that you'll be successful/competitive/winning at without intense practice.

I mean, you wouldn't shoot bullseye all year and then show up to a USPSA match and expect to be in the top 75% any more than I'd shoot IDPA all year and expect the same in a bullseye match.

...

Which I guess leaves us back to the question I asked you before: Do you want more shooters to participate, even if they can't be dedicated and "serious" competitors? Or would you prefer they didn't bother?

 

[GBExpat]

What Would it Take to Get YOU out to a Bullseye ("Conventional Pistol" Event?

Quite frankly, I cannot imagine such a circumstance. I have never had any interest in participating in or observing shooting competitions ... but, for the welfare and future of shooting sports, I am glad that many do.

All of my shooting is done in my backyard or, if I feel like walking a bit (like when I am not testing loads on the Chrony or checking sight settings), over on the farm.